Eye For An Eye

[Veliane]

Bringing back a deterrent spell is a good idea, every season since the end of Wrath has been Train down the Ret.

Retribution Aura: 1min cd.
Unleash the wrath of heavens upon your enemy target, sharing 30% of all damage taken with him/her as Divine damage for the next 6 seconds.
Damage dealt cannot exceed the Paladin's total health.

I also think that we lost all of our perks so that Holy could get them, to do some justice to that act of disrespect the talents have to be more powerful for their true spec!.

Tier two.
Repentance has to be instant cast and physical for Ret, cooldown doubled (30 sec)
Burden of Guilt need an extra function for Ret, Heavy Burden, if the target is 15+ yards away they are also chained to the ground for 2 seconds.
Tier three.
Selfless Healer has to stack from Templar's Verdict along with Judgement for Ret.
Sacred Shield should absorb 20% more (for all specs really) completely undispellable for Ret.
Tier four.
Unbreakable Spirit's reduction effect per holy power spent should be doubled for Prot and Ret (2% ever 1).
Tier five.
Holy Avenger should be 1min cd, lasts 10 seconds.
Sanc Wrath should reduce the cooldown of AW to 2 minutes instead of having it last 50% longer.
Divine Purpose should be baseline for Retribution. Replace the ability with a talent that allows Holy to summon 2 guardians of ancient kings, Prot to become the guardian of ancient kings, and Ret to have a permanent guardian of ancient kings (this last one would be cc'able)
Tier six.
For the love of god, allow these talents to benefit from haste.

[Trisrx]

Its easy to forget, but paladins lost a lot of amazing passives when they scrapped the old talent system. 30% fear/disorient/stun reduction, 50% disarm reduction, freedom stun removal, -10% chance to be critically hit, vindication reducing enemy stats, 50% wings damage reduction bypass, the list goes on and on. Of course along the way we did gain an interrupt and a snare. I guess im feeling less like a paladin and more like, well, everybody else. Love to see eye for an eye return.

[rulk]

I don't play anymore, due to RL circumstances atm, but I really miss Eye for an Eye.

I think the original numbers thrown out there are far too high. More in line with something like 33% chance to reflect 20% dmg or something.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 07:29 PM ----------

Bringing back a deterrent spell is a good idea, every season since the end of Wrath has been Train down the Ret.

Retribution Aura: 1min cd.
Unleash the wrath of heavens upon your enemy target, sharing 30% of all damage taken with him/her as Divine damage for the next 6 seconds.
Damage dealt cannot exceed the Paladin's total health.

Tier six.
For the love of god, allow these talents to benefit from haste.

Really like your idea for Ret aura, unique and interesting. And I whole heartedly agree about the Tier 6 talents.

[Valedus]

How about this:

Hand of Retribution
2min CD
When cast on you or a friendly target, causes the recipient to have a 50% chance to reflect up to 2 spells back at the caster, within 10 seconds. If it is a CC, the duration is halved. If it is a damaging spell, it's damage is reduced by 50%. This does cause Forbearance on the target of the Hand.

Numbers could use tweaking, would likely get involved in our 4th talent row (Hand of Purity and Clemency mainly). This is an idea off the top of my head, based on what I read here, how EfaE used to work, and me being awake for all of 25min.

Note: I don't PvP at all. It's not my interest or fortay. But aside from the spec being called "Retribution", there is alot of what used to define Ret missing. This is not too far of a stretch when you consider Spell Reflect and Mass Spell Reflect on Warriors right now. Ours just won't be guaranteed which spell it catches.

Edit: Reworded spell a bit.

It can't be a talent. Ret needs something of its own that Holy can't grab, or Ret will never be unique. Also, having it cause forbearance wouldn't help our survivability at all, which is the issue.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 06:21 PM ----------

Its easy to forget, but paladins lost a lot of amazing passives when they scrapped the old talent system. 30% fear/disorient/stun reduction, 50% disarm reduction, freedom stun removal, -10% chance to be critically hit, vindication reducing enemy stats, 50% wings damage reduction bypass, the list goes on and on. Of course along the way we did gain an interrupt and a snare. I guess im feeling less like a paladin and more like, well, everybody else. Love to see eye for an eye return.

I do agree with this. Now that I have been thinking about it, Ret has lost TONS of flavor with class homogenization. A lot of those wouldn't be balanced in PvP these days, though (stat reduction, for instance) and we have been balanced around the others (50% wings bypass), but I definitely think a CC reduction, freedom stun removal, or eye for an eye are definitely needed. Things that made Ret unique before they were stripped. Obviously not all of them.

Even if they had to balance around new mechanics like that, It would bring back a lot of the fun of being a Ret paladin, for sure.
And to all the people saying: I would kill myself attacking a Ret paladin! amg! Did you ever kill yourself attacking a paladin in Wrath? Not really, no. If Eye for an eye kills yourself, then damage compared to survivability would be way over the top that arena season. Also, remember, this damage would double dip in Resilience, so it wouldn't be that high, just a little bit of cushion to prevent you being the omg focus the pally target.
And the heal? Really? 2-3% every couple seconds is just flat out worse than some other classes. Look at lock self-healing compared to pally self healing, plus the bubbles they get. There's much more.

The problem with Veliane's idea, while I like it, is that it is literally just Touch of Karma from monks, so it wouldn't really be that unique. =/

[Fhi]

Even if they had to balance around new mechanics like that, It would bring back a lot of the fun of being a Ret paladin, for sure.
And to all the people saying: I would kill myself attacking a Ret paladin! amg! Did you ever kill yourself attacking a paladin in Wrath? Not really, no. If Eye for an eye kills yourself, then damage compared to survivability would be way over the top that arena season.

In cata Eye for an Eye was kinda crap for pvp, because it double dipped from resilience - i.e, damage done to you would be reduced by your resilience %. Eye from an eye then took 30% of that resulting damage, and reflect it back to the enemy, which is again reduced by the enemy's resilience.

An early iteration of E4E (I think during Wrath) was what made people complain. That was when E4E reflected a percent of any crit against you. High-crit classes like rogue would literally kill themselves on the paladin.

[nyc81991]

I like the concept, but the numbers are off, way off.

Having a 40% Chance to deal 30% of the damage back at you is not a fair, or fun mechanic. Having it as a passive would be something that means you become more powerful through no skill, or improvement of your own. I agree you need passive buffs, but a mechanic like this with these numbers would be lame and potentially overpowering.

Having it at a 25% chance to reflect 20% of your damage, plus having a 3% HP heal would be much more friendly to your opponents, but also without making you far to over-reliant on RNG.

For every four attacks, you should in theory have reflected one of them, meaning they've taken 20% of that damage, plus you got a heal. I think putting it in like that owuld be much more enjoyable, as I would hate it if I was low on health, and so was a rival paladin, and as I go to finish him off, I get it all blown back in my face. That isn't fun for your opponents, and it certainly isn't fun for you as a passive.

Also, I wouldn't add the physical attacks component to it. Spells only. Melee attacks and ranged attacks hitting on you would make it useless in a matter of seconds, as the ICD would just be kept on a constant use.

Yeah the numbers are something that can be changed around. I'm just thinking more in terms of the concept. Ret needs something that discourages people from training them all game. Eye for an Eye would be a decent way of doing that in the form of a passive. And it makes it a bit easier for Blizzard because it is something that was already in the game for us.

[Valedus]

Yeah the numbers are something that can be changed around. I'm just thinking more in terms of the concept. Ret needs something that discourages people from training them all game. Eye for an Eye would be a decent way of doing that in the form of a passive. And it makes it a bit easier for Blizzard because it is something that was already in the game for us.

Either a passive or a small cooldown, something akin to AMS for DK's. (Not saying we should get an AMS, just a 45 sec-1.5 min cd), but I would prefer a passive. Preferably something fitting the flavor of Ret and not just some shield wall or something. Spell reflect/Damage Reflect or maybe a 1.5 min cd that disarms/silences all targets that attack you for 6 seconds, lasting 6 seconds?

Edit: Just thought of this to help with Ret being CONSTANT training target and help bring some utility.

Retribution Aura
30 yard radius
1.5 minute cd (could be upped to 2 minutes, because of 2nd mechanic)

Any attacks against the Paladin or his nearby allies silence or disarm the target (spells = silence, attacks = disarm) for 6 seconds. (normal DR's).
This ability lasts 6 seconds.

Any attacks against the paladin while this spell is on cooldown lower the cooldown by 1 second (2-3 second ICD). Undispellable.

Helps with group utility and survivability. This could put forbearance if it really had to, I guess, because I could see it being a little ridiculous with BoPing allies, too. But I feel like it fits with the flavor, and current needs of Ret.

Edit 2.0: They could put the cooldown reduction on Unbreakable Spirit, as pretty much every PvP Ret grabs Clemency without much of a 2nd thought.

[Vathius]

An early iteration of E4E (I think during Wrath) was what made people complain. That was when E4E reflected a percent of any crit against you. High-crit classes like rogue would literally kill themselves on the paladin.

Thats the idea , The whole rock paper scissors world of the paladin has in the past put us in a position of 'good vs melee but weak vs casters' especially taking into consideration our gap closing is still pretty weak which is a testament to this. Rogues and other melee technically 'Should' be destroying themselves on us.

Rets now are weak vs everything due to our lack of defensive abilities. Having E4E would give melee 2nd thoughts on training us. Paladins are not a feared class anymore

[Matrlx]

well yesterday i went Rbg and it happen that i was against a hunter Alone none of the both team helping us we were hitting each other and i poped wings and started to burst him down suddenly his 20% hp stopped going down and whatever i hit HoW or TV doesnt affect him alot , i mean it seems like hunter have An eye for an Eye coz everytime i hit him some of my dmg come back to me and his hp slighty went down by 1 % or 2 %

[Valedus]

Nah, BM hunters can just damage back while popping Deterrence and Exhiliration with very little penalty, the hunter himself can't shoot during deterrence, but his pet can still eat your face while it's big and red.

[Matrlx]

oh well he have a good Def Mechanisim , bursting him down while popping his Deffensice Cds and my dmg not affecting him

[Nairobi]

Really like the idea of seeing some quintessential ret abilities come back to the spec. As I said before, it seems like WW monks poached a LOT of the abilities that SHOULD have been given to us, being that they are retributive in nature:
Touch of Karma - amazing pressure reliever while being trained, that also reflects/retributes damage to the attacker(s)
Chi Wave - thematically a retributive ability that sources damage to an enemy that then heals an ally (and repeats a few times)
Swift Reflexes - passive that strikes back an enemy when parried for small damage.
Hell, even Blackout Kick has retributive properties in its passive heal when performed from the front and DoT component when performed from behind.

I'd love to see Ret iterations of these, to go with what we discussed.

Eye for an Eye - basically a version of ToK, but uses holy damage for the DoT. Perhaps only bypasses 50% of incoming damage instead of 100%.
Test of Faith - Send a bolt of holy energy to the enemy target for X dmg. which then bounces to the nearest ally for Y healing. Total 5 bounces.
Favored of the Light - Passive (Retribution): when struck in combat by a spell or attack, the attacker takes 20% of the damage as holy damage and the Paladin is healed for 2% max HP. This effect can only occur once every few seconds.

Also, would like to add in that adding a Denounce type anti-crit debuff to our attacks (either HoPo generating or HoPo consuming) would also fit in with the retribution theme.

All of the above would be much needed QoL changes for ret in PVP, but leave PVE damage (99%) unaffected. Yes, reflect abilities like old E4aE were SLIGHT DPS increases, but not ever enough to matter.

[Valedus]

The problem is I think the Dev's fear giving Ret too many new abilities. If we made the case that we needed just one unique mechanic/skill to be viable instead of 2-3, I think they would be much more willing to send buffs our way.

[nyc81991]

The problem is I think the Dev's fear giving Ret too many new abilities. If we made the case that we needed just one unique mechanic/skill to be viable instead of 2-3, I think they would be much more willing to send buffs our way.

The thing is we aren't really asking for "new" abilities. We are asking for things we already had and were taken away for seemingly no good reason. Divine Purpose, Zealotry (aka Holy Avenger), Repentance, Selfless Healer, Sacred Shield, Long arm of the law, and Pursuit of Justice were all given to Holy and Prot this expansion effectively making everything that was unique to Ret not unique at all.

Ontop of that we lost things like Eye of an Eye, the Cata version of Sacred shield, more passive healing taken, Consecration, ect..

While in a lot of ways I like the idea behind the new Talent system, All it really did was take things that were already apart of Ret paladins and make you either have to choose between them or lose them all together.

[Matrlx]

i miss the old tree Talent , it was the best then this current pitiful talent

[Valedus]

The thing is we aren't really asking for "new" abilities. We are asking for things we already had and were taken away for seemingly no good reason. Divine Purpose, Zealotry (aka Holy Avenger), Repentance, Selfless Healer, Sacred Shield, Long arm of the law, and Pursuit of Justice were all given to Holy and Prot this expansion effectively making everything that was unique to Ret not unique at all.

Ontop of that we lost things like Eye of an Eye, the Cata version of Sacred shield, more passive healing taken, Consecration, ect..

While in a lot of ways I like the idea behind the new Talent system, All it really did was take things that were already apart of Ret paladins and make you either have to choose between them or lose them all together.

Yeah, I agree with you, I think they are just timid about buffing, I mean they've stated they think Ret is "fine" when it's not. Maybe, we'll see.
I agree that a lot of stuff was stripped from the spec. Isn't it a little ironic that in order to gain things every melee has had, we have had to lose tons of mechanics that were pretty unique?
I like the new talent system a lot better on my druid than my Paladin for that reason. Ret just feels stripped to bare bones, it's just not that fun in PvP anymore because I feel like I'm at a disadvantage, and I've played my pally as Ret for ~6 years. =/

[Faesroll]

I think the old model is pretty boring and just as pointless as auras were, making it slightly stronger and an active ability might be a good way to make us less trainable and make casters think twice before they try to blow us up.

[Ealyssa]

i miss the old tree Talent , it was the best then this current pitiful talent

In what exactly ? Even if we are not "great" I wouldn't change MoP ret for cata Ret.

Our problem have nothing to do with the new talent system (the old one sucked at least as much), it has to do with lack of survivability and a bad balance in burst/sustained damage.

[nyc81991]

In what exactly ? Even if we are not "great" I wouldn't change MoP ret for cata Ret.

Our problem have nothing to do with the new talent system (the old one sucked at least as much), it has to do with lack of survivability and a bad balance in burst/sustained damage.

MoP added some nice stuff to Ret but it also removed a lot of the things that made us good in Cata. This new talent system has pretty much taken everything Ret had in Cata and now makes you choose one of them for each tier of talents. Ontop of that, Now Holy and Prot have all of the things Ret had in Cata.

[Simplistic]

So I was thinking. What if Ret got "Eye For An Eye" back as a baseline passive? It could help out quite a bit in pvp in terms of making people not want to focus the Ret paladin due to taking damage from their own attacks. It would also help with our sustained damage problem and make it so we aren't giving up all of our damage to self heal.

For anyone who doesn't know, Eye for and Eye was an ability in the Ret talent tree before MoP. It read, "All magic attacks against you have a 40% chance to cause 30% of the damage taken back to the attacker as well."


I'm thinking that they could put in a newer version that reads something along the lines of "All magic and physical attacks against you have a 40% chance to cause 30% of the damage taken back to the attacker as well and heals you for 3% of your total health".

So what do you guys think about that? Would it be a good idea? If you think so I would ask that you send a message to Gc on twitter to see what he thinks about it.

Oh, weird, I was thinking the same thing. I think it should come with a badass purple glow around our armor, possibly with spikes...