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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Don't mean to butt in but that's not exactly the issue. Some people might be willing to invest a lot of time / effort in to the game but be unable to raid due to any number of reasons.
    Sadly that's life. I'd love to travel more and play more games but work, my daughter and any number of other things prevent me. Can't exactly whinge at my boss that my job is getting in the way of my raiding, nor do I think my daughter will understand if I suddenly take off to see the world.

    If you have responsibilities that prevent you raiding chances are you're an adult, and you should just deal with this like an adult. My shifts got changed during TBC and missed out on raiding Black Temple, I was gutted but I certainly didn't QQ to Blizzard that I should still get raid level epics.

  2. #102
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    *snip*
    Please PM me when you are ready to have a mature conversation and respond to points mentioned instead of having acting liek your feelings are hurt and commenting that I am twisting your words and not doing anything right. When you have actual substance to bring to the discussion instead of simply throwing insults, embellishments, and opionis not related to the discussion then I would love to respond to that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Anyway, not even Puremallace annoyed me enough to earn an ignore, I actually find him amusing at times, however, I just added the first 3 people ever to my ignore list. That is saying a lot as the only people, even in WoW, that ever earned their way on my ignore list were gold spammers.
    Not sure how this has to do with anything? Oh well, irony I guess. At least if I can determine I am one of them then I can not waste my time responding. Though you did bring up some good points, just seems like you are angstily defending something that isn't being attacked. *shrug*

    I love Rift, but I also love discussing things. It's so odd to feel the need to clarify that every 2 seconds so people don't freak out here. Feels like it's a direct representation of the actual community...Continuously fortifying the walls while excommnucating people with different opinions so that the community doesn't really grow or evolve. I don't spend enough time on the forums and I haven't run across this too much in the game, or else that would be the first thing I'd point to as to why this game has never gotten bigger than it has.
    BAD WOLF

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Kettle View Post
    Please PM me when you are ready to have a mature conversation
    I have an opening in my calendar the same day hell freezes

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    Sadly that's life. I'd love to travel more and play more games but work, my daughter and any number of other things prevent me. Can't exactly whinge at my boss that my job is getting in the way of my raiding, nor do I think my daughter will understand if I suddenly take off to see the world.

    If you have responsibilities that prevent you raiding chances are you're an adult, and you should just deal with this like an adult. My shifts got changed during TBC and missed out on raiding Black Temple, I was gutted but I certainly didn't QQ to Blizzard that I should still get raid level epics.
    I think a great example of "expanding" the end game is what Blizzard, my god I can't believe i am saying something good about them, did with their end game pvp. Rather than just having 2v2/3v3/5v5 they expanded to include ranked battle grounds. They both offered access to the t2 weapons and they were different types of activity. Both required "skill" although there was usually a debate about which one took more.

    I think there are ways trion could adjust the IS distribution on world events and bosses that would reflect skill more. Also, they could have events where if you down the event or boss quickly enough you unlock a follow up event that is harder, and thus offers better IS gain on top of the change in distribution.
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Please PM me when you are ready to have a mature conversation and respond to points mentioned instead of having acting liek your feelings are hurt and commenting that I am twisting your words and not doing anything right. When you have actual substance to bring to the discussion instead of simply throwing insults, embellishments, and opionis not related to the discussion then I would love to respond to that.

    Not sure how this has to do with anything? Oh well, irony I guess. At least if I can determine I am one of them then I can not waste my time responding. Though you did bring up some good points, just seems like you are angstily defending something that isn't being attacked. *shrug*

    I love Rift, but I also love discussing things. It's so odd to feel the need to clarify that every 2 seconds so people don't freak out here. Feels like it's a direct representation of the actual community...Continuously fortifying the walls while excommnucating people with different opinions so that the community doesn't really grow or evolve. I don't spend enough time on the forums and I haven't run across this too much in the game, or else that would be the first thing I'd point to as to why this game has never gotten bigger than it has.
    Not sure why I am seeing this, I thought ignore would work differently than it does apparently. However, I am still going to respond.

    Not being attacked?
    I say that F2P talk hurts anything more than it helps, you tell me I am wrong.
    I say that Raid gear should stay with raiders and those that do not raid should not get it, you call me elitist. Not attacking? Come on.

    You don't spend enough time on the forums? Really? This thread alone proves that you are disillusioned about even your own actions.
    The community does evolve, we had Master Mode Dungeons, Chronicles, we are getting Hard Modes, we got Volan, Great Hunts, all great evolutions. The evolutions you are talking about a not in fact evolutions in my eyes, and the eyes of many others, but instead steps backwards. Steps towards handing out freebies. Steps towards becoming more like WoW, that yes, it also on it's slow and steady decline to death.(14 mil in TBC, How many now?)

    The game has never gotten bigger than it has? What are you saying, it's a small game? It's one of the AAA giants on the market and continues to see steady and increasing growth ever since it came out. It is getting bigger, day by day and month by month. It is growing fast and not slowly dieing or just hanging on like the other games you keep pointing to.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 10:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    I think a great example of "expanding" the end game is what Blizzard, my god I can't believe i am saying something good about them, did with their end game pvp. Rather than just having 2v2/3v3/5v5 they expanded to include ranked battle grounds. They both offered access to the t2 weapons and they were different types of activity. Both required "skill" although there was usually a debate about which one took more.

    I think there are ways trion could adjust the IS distribution on world events and bosses that would reflect skill more. Also, they could have events where if you down the event or boss quickly enough you unlock a follow up event that is harder, and thus offers better IS gain on top of the change in distribution.

    Again, not sure how ignore works, but whatever. If they adjusted the way world events worked to require more skill and coordination, people would complain that it is too hard. That is the appeal to them, that they do not require skill and coordination. That is why they are as popular as they are and why the rewards do not match the rewards of raiding. Besides, they already have what you describe, DRRs. Which while requiring more skill and coordination that an actual instanced raid, so reward more. The rewards fall in line with that, they actually get you some BiS Lessers but cannot fully gear you the same as a raid can.

  6. #106
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Not being attacked?
    I say that F2P talk hurts anything more than it helps, you tell me I am wrong.
    I say that Raid gear should stay with raiders and those that do not raid should not get it, you call me elitist. Not attacking? Come on.
    Having a hypothetical discussion about a F2P model is now 'attacking Rift'. You should work for a political spin team. The thread was started by someone that raves about Rift, has had moderators that love Rift and F2P models commenting on it, and yet somehow it is attacking Rift? You are proving what I said to be exactly true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    You don't spend enough time on the forums? Really? This thread alone proves that you are disillusioned about even your own actions.
    I was talking about the Rift forums, not MMO-C. I thought that was clear from reading in context, since 25ish or less people are clearly not a representation of the entire Rift community.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    The community does evolve, we had Master Mode Dungeons, Chronicles, we are getting Hard Modes, we got Volan, Great Hunts, all great evolutions. The evolutions you are talking about a not in fact evolutions in my eyes, and the eyes of many others, but instead steps backwards. Steps towards handing out freebies. Steps towards becoming more like WoW, that yes, it also on it's slow and steady decline to death.(14 mil in TBC, How many now?)
    How is the community and a game system even close to the same thing? It's not. The community are made up of people, their actions, and their behavior towards other players. Being afraid of change and other people's ideas isn't going to promote any sort of growth in a community. Unless you are building a concentration camp and the community are prison guards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    The game has never gotten bigger than it has? What are you saying, it's a small game? It's one of the AAA giants on the market and continues to see steady and increasing growth ever since it came out. It is getting bigger, day by day and month by month. It is growing fast and not slowly dieing or just hanging on like the other games you keep pointing to.
    Hmm...so in one post you claim that all these other games have no one playing and are on the verge of death based on the fact that there's no proof. Now you use the same logic to say why Rift is growing bigger than it ever has and reiterate other games are dying.

    You are a poster for disilluioned logic and are arguing just for the sake of it.
    BAD WOLF

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Again, not sure how ignore works, but whatever. If they adjusted the way world events worked to require more skill and coordination, people would complain that it is too hard. That is the appeal to them, that they do not require skill and coordination. That is why they are as popular as they are and why the rewards do not match the rewards of raiding. Besides, they already have what you describe, DRRs. Which while requiring more skill and coordination that an actual instanced raid, so reward more. The rewards fall in line with that, they actually get you some BiS Lessers but cannot fully gear you the same as a raid can.
    That's actually not what I described. You don't get less rewards for doing less dps/hps/activity in DDRs so its not ranked and it doesn't give end game like RBGs do.
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  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Having a hypothetical discussion about a F2P model is now 'attacking Rift'. You should work for a political spin team. The thread was started by someone that raves about Rift, has had moderators that love Rift and F2P models commenting on it, and yet somehow it is attacking Rift? You are proving what I said to be exactly true.
    No, but calling me an elitist IS attacking me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I was talking about the Rift forums, not MMO-C. I thought that was clear from reading in context, since 25ish or less people are clearly not a representation of the entire Rift community.
    and again, this thread alone proves how much time you spend on the Rift forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    How is the community and a game system even close to the same thing? It's not. The community are made up of people, their actions, and their behavior towards other players. Being afraid of change and other people's ideas isn't going to promote any sort of growth in a community. Unless you are building a concentration camp and the community are prison guards.
    because the comunity embraced and loved these evolutions, the game makes changes, we evolve to participate in them and enjoy them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Hmm...so in one post you claim that all these other games have no one playing and are on the verge of death based on the fact that there's no proof. Now you use the same logic to say why Rift is growing bigger than it ever has and reiterate other games are dying.

    You are a poster for disilluioned logic and are arguing just for the sake of it.
    Because the one thing we do know about Rifts numbers is that it is growing and exceeding expectations. They have said this. What we see in those other games is slow and steady decline. Let me explain what I mean by slow and steady decline. Each year, having less players and making less money than the year before. Not as in it is in a downward spiral of death and gonna come to a close in a few months, but slowly having less players over time. It's like someone getting cancer. That doesn't mean they are gonna die tomorrow, but they are in for a long hard fight that almost no matter what they do is gonna end with them dieing. Even if it goes into recession and things look good, it usually comes back and kills you eventually.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    No, but calling me an elitist IS attacking me.
    This guy keeps attacking you
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Yes, I may be mildly elitist
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Well, I am an elitist.
    Btw, I know you are trying to derail this to get it closed. It's pretty obvious.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 04:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Because the one thing we do know about Rifts numbers is that it is growing and exceeding expectations. They have said this. What we see in those other games is slow and steady decline.
    EA says that swtor has gained players AND subscribers since going f2p. So could you back up your statements on this whole "f2p = death" please?
    Last edited by Bardarian; 2013-01-25 at 04:58 PM.
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  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    This guy keeps attacking you


    Btw, I know you are trying to derail this to get it closed. It's pretty obvious.
    Well, originally it was an attempt at an attack made b someone else. I did not really take it as such, but when people throw that word around, it is generally considered an attack.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 11:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    This guy keeps attacking you


    Btw, I know you are trying to derail this to get it closed. It's pretty obvious.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 04:58 PM ----------



    EA says that swtor has gained players AND subscribers since going f2p. So could you back up your statements on this whole "f2p = death" please?
    Also, if I was trying to get the thread closed I would turn it game vs game and be using WoW as my example and saying that if it hasn't gone F2P then that is not the way to go because they are the most successful game/company ever and everything they do is right, then I would start getting WoW friends in here to back that up and start trashing Rift. But I am not doing that, so I am not trying to get the thread closed.

    As for EA/SWTOR, that is typically what happens in the first few months after a game makes the transition. A surge, then it begins the slow and steady several year long path to just being on life support.


    Also, can someone please explain to me how ignore works? Why am I still seeing posts from people I have ignored?

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    A surge, then it begins the slow and steady several year long path to just being on life support.
    I think you are mixing F2P game up with games that stayed subscription instead of going f2p.
    Like warhammer and SWG.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 05:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Also, if I was trying to get the thread closed I would turn it game vs game and be using WoW as my example
    Uh... huh

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Steps towards becoming more like WoW, that yes, it also on it's slow and steady decline to death.(14 mil in TBC, How many now?)
    Weird.
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  12. #112
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    So let me get this straight:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I've never bought the whole excuse that if you don't raid you shouldn't want the highest gear. That's a pretty non logical argument that has been ised in WoW by elitists (not saying you are one) forever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Well, I am an elitist. While I do strive to help people on forums and even in-game, if you are not willing to put forth the effort and play the way I play you are not going to be in my guild running raids with me. So yeah, I am elitist.
    You are trying to say that I'm attacking you, after you were intially claiming we were attacking the game. Now you want to hide behind being insulted as called an elitist when you are the one doing it? But yet your words of continuously slamming people (incorectly btw) who want different avenues is acceptable?

    Ignore functions properly when you click on the name, then click ignore, then click that you really want to ignore the person. If you keep clicking view post and then responding to it you will always see my posts.

    Anyways HK, it's clear that talking about anything other than just praising Rift to the high heavens isn't allowed here. We should probably keep such radical ideas as hypothetical discussion on F2P models to a private chat room with edge and fencers, since they are pretty much the only people who responded to what you proposed. I'm sure I'm missing more, but it's been a swathe of 2 people trying to get the thread closed while being allowed to continuously bash anyone who thinks differently than them.
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-01-25 at 05:10 PM.
    BAD WOLF

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    So let me get this straight:



    You are trying to say that I'm attacking you, after you were intially claiming we were attacking the game. Now you want to hide behind being insulted as called an elitist when you are the one doing it? But yet your words of continuously slamming people (incorectly btw) who want different avenues is acceptable?

    Ignore functions properly when you click on the name, then click ignore, then click that you really want to ignore the person. If you keep clicking view post and then responding to it you will always see my posts.

    Anyways HK, it's clear that talking about anything other than just praising Rift to the high heavens isn't allowed here. We should probably keep such radical ideas as hypothetical discussion on F2P models to a private chat room with edge and fencers, since they are pretty much the only people who responded to what you proposed. I'm sure I'm missing more, but it's been a swathe of 2 people trying to get the thread closed while being allowed to continuously bash anyone who thinks differently than them.
    All I am saying is that I do not agree with those different avenues. The avenue is raiding. There are other activities in the game that we can both enjoy, and I do, that you do not need that gear for and should not have access to. If we both do those things, and I do raiding on top of that, then why should we have equal gear? That's the thing, the raiders do all that other content too, they just chew through it faster than you, then they go on to raid and continue progressing instead of stopping. If you do not want to move on, that is your choice. Not the game makers, not mine, yours. That's like getting a job offer for a higher position, not taking it, then saying you still want the pay. It makes no sense.

    Also, I am fond of criticism in Rift, there are things that are wrong, that should be fixed. However, handing out raid gear to non-raiders and F2P discussion are not improvements in the eyes of the vast majority of the community. If you want to criticize other aspects and have discussions about other things that they could improve on, that's great. But I will vehemently object to F2P and "free" raid loot no matter what. Those are 2 things that no game I am interested in playing will ever have. As soon as they do, I will quit and it will take a lot to get me back. SWTOR for example, as soon as the F2P talk started, I quit. So far, since that time I have seen alot of the devs do the same. I have seen a lot of people do the same. I have also seen alot of the type of player I attempt to avoid move to it.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    All I am saying is that I do not agree with those different avenues.
    We got that like... 5 pages ago.
    Do you anything else to add?
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  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    We got that like... 5 pages ago.
    Do you anything else to add?
    Why yes, I do, though not aimed at you.

    Let's just pretend something extremely silly. Pretend that you have a plastic cup permanently attached to your ear or something. Now, if I say, "people that have cups attached to their ears are all poor people.(not calling you poor)" What did I just do? I just called you poor but said I was not. Does not change the fact that I did it though. So yes, I was attacked, even if I did not consider it one. Calling someone something, then saying you are not, does not mean you did not do it. You still did.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Why yes, I do, though not aimed at you.

    Let's just pretend something extremely silly. Pretend that you have a plastic cup permanently attached to your ear or something. Now, if I say, "people that have cups attached to their ears are all poor people.(not calling you poor)" What did I just do? I just called you poor but said I was not. Does not change the fact that I did it though. So yes, I was attacked, even if I did not consider it one. Calling someone something, then saying you are not, does not mean you did not do it. You still did.
    Just because you said something that he thought sounded elitist doesn't mean that he thought you were an elitist, or that you are.
    You can express a conservative view without being a conservative.
    ect ect ect.

    I've said some elitist things and some very dick things. They don't define the whole of my perspective though.
    Another thing is that "elitism" comes in many forms and within a topic, many sub types. I could be a total achievement elitist but a causal in pvp and I could express both views without being defined as an "elitist".

    You jumped the gun on taking offense and in the process defined yourself as an elitist which you didn't have to do.

    edit: I mean, in general, in this thread, you began by taking this all very seriously. This is a discussion board viewed by about 20-50 people and posted on by about 10 people. Us discussing what a F2P model might look like isn't going to hurt a game that probably has around 400k subscribers. I like to use my home state as a bench mark for these sort of things. That's 65% of my states population. 5 to 10 people talking about the state seceding isn't going to make it happen.
    Last edited by Bardarian; 2013-01-25 at 06:11 PM.
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  17. #117
    Hi ladies and gents.

    Let's keep it civil in here please, this thread is getting a little too excited.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    There already is a paywall. its called a subscription.
    The best post.

    I do believe this barrier to entry with MMOs will naturally fade as the market becomes more fragmented. Subs are just unsustainable for the majority of MMOs out there. No longer any benefit to having or paying a sub from both a consumer and publisher standpoint.

  19. #119
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    The best post.

    I do believe this barrier to entry with MMOs will naturally fade as the market becomes more fragmented. Subs are just unsustainable for the majority of MMOs out there. No longer any benefit to having or paying a sub from both a consumer and publisher standpoint.
    I think that standard subscriptions are becoming stale, but that there are multiple solutions to reviving the payment models. Some companies won't be able to do anything but transition to F2P, but some companies like Blizzard and maybe Trion soon will be able to actually put value in a subscription service.

    We have games like CoD and BF3 craptastically giving services for a subscription and people are eating it up. I can't really say it's wrong of them, but it's certainly disgusting to me. Having a company with a wide enough range of games provide a working concept like the Station Pass Edge mentioned is another way to go about it.

    If the price range can be nailed and the services adequate enough, it could be very successful. Let's use Blizzard since it's an easier example:

    For $30/month, you get access and special services to all of their games. This includes WoW, SC, and D3. All updates, normal expansions (not C.E.'s), and such are included in this price. All three games share a Cash Shop that includes mounts, pets, portraits, customization things, etc. Your subscription to the service grants you an allotment of currency in the shop each month. Let certain game activities (slowly) earn this currency as well. Go ahead and merge physical products into this shop, so your gameplay can actually buy you a T-Shirt.

    Additionally it could provide better social networking/tablet/smartphone integration. They could develop minigames, outside activities, and so forth to keep people connected to battle.net at all times.

    Provide discounts on partner games and services. While this could be as simple as running special battle.net premium members sales, it could also partner with real world, physical retailers like grocery stores and restaurants. The sky is the limit. With this idea though, there's also a potential to allow a 'free' access to some battle.net services with advertisement, though you would still have to pay for your games and their individual costs.

    I think this line of thinking is really the future for subscription games. It wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard is launching something like this when Titan goes live.
    BAD WOLF

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    The best post.

    I do believe this barrier to entry with MMOs will naturally fade as the market becomes more fragmented. Subs are just unsustainable for the majority of MMOs out there. No longer any benefit to having or paying a sub from both a consumer and publisher standpoint.
    I also agree, that games will more than likely continue on this path, and I do not have too much wrong with a F2P model if done correctly. However, I still say that a game must be designed that way from the start and with that in mind. A game that has a sub then goes F2P is then perceived by the community as a whole as a failed game. These games see a surge in activity for a while, then slowly fade over the course of years. This is why, if Rift were release for the first time ever, today, I would expect it to be F2P, it would also be designed differently from the start.

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