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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Right, I forgot we have to give everything away.

    Where is my mind at?!
    I don't know, iut seems to be in some realm where wow isn't a mass market MMO catering to the lowest denominator.

    Perhaps you've got a korean reskin of it in mind or something.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 04:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    If you raided kara on your main for 2 years because you had to, you were doing it wrong.
    Or were gearing and attuning the 100th new recruit to come through the doors, in the hope of replacing the people who left for the next bets guild on the server.

    Theres a reason they don't follow the TBC model any more and it's that it sucked dick for almost everyone who wasn't at the top of the tree.

  2. #302
    I don't like multiple sizes for the same raid. TBC style distinct 10 and 25 mans were better.

    @OP:
    If you haven't met anyone raiding 25 for loot, either you know very few 25-man raiders or you are not telling the truth. I and many others used to prefer 25 mans when 25 man raids offered better quality loot.

    The money talks logic doesn't work. We do not pay for separate services, we pay for whole package and Blizz makes a lot of niche content as well. I don't think adjusting raid for 25 mans is whole lot of expense.

    GIMMICKS (Mounts, transmog, tabards, pets, heirlooms) won't make me raid 25 instead of 10.

    I would prefer 25 these days because it feels more epic. Yet, no good guild on Eldre'thalas, my server's 25 scene already died long ago. Loot would be a great incentive to do 25, but Blizzard won't do it. We had great 25 man guilds and lot of competition, now there is ONE guild, barely. It is sad. Competition kept it fresh for me, now it's just one guild with no competition.

    There should be LFR and normal (as hard as in TBC). Less work for Blizz to make 2 difficulties instead of 3.

    Either LFR in tier 1 should be locked until normal Tier 2 is released or LFR should drop only slightly better than 5-man quality loot. IF all the crying about raid difficulty and 10 mans was about "seeing content" (no guild, no time, no friends, etc), then why do these LFR trash want LOOT LOOT LOOT. I can't believe people used that argument of "seeing content" both for easy raids/LFR and 10-mans. And I can't believe people bought that argument.

    /stop rant
    Last edited by killidan; 2013-01-24 at 04:14 PM.

  3. #303
    Herald of the Titans Vintersol's Avatar
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    Theres a reason they don't follow the TBC model any more and it's that it sucked dick for almost everyone who wasn't at the top of the tree.
    And still BC popped subs over 10 Million, because it was bad....

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    And still BC popped subs over 10 Million, because it was bad....
    Can't have had much to do with the raiding, because of those 10 million, 8 million didn't do any. 4 million didn't hit level 70, either.

    But these are just facts, who cares about those!

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Layuth View Post
    This IS the answer.
    This would have been the answer. 15-man LFR (2-3-10) should have been the format in Cata in preparation for MoP. Just rip the band aid off. 25s would have split into two 15s and 10s know what they have to recruit for.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Can't have had much to do with the raiding, because of those 10 million, 8 million didn't do any. 4 million didn't hit level 70, either.

    But these are just facts, who cares about those!
    Yeah, tough job to pop stats out of your ...


    mouth.

    Where is your source for the numbers? (except the 10 million TBC subs, which has been common knowledge)

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 04:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Veliladon View Post
    This would have been the answer. 15-man LFR (2-3-10) should have been the format in Cata in preparation for MoP. Just rip the band aid off. 25s would have split into two 15s and 10s know what they have to recruit for.
    If there will be new raid sizes other than 10 and 25, then why not have 10, 20, 30, etc.

    I still believe in each raid should come in one size. Guilds complained in TBC of downsizing for Kara and upsizing for beyond Kara. In response, Blizzard killed 25 man raiding. No 25 man raiding, no problem. lol

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by killidan View Post
    If there will be new raid sizes other than 10 and 25, then why not have 10, 20, 30, etc.

    I still believe in each raid should come in one size. Guilds complained in TBC of downsizing for Kara and upsizing for beyond Kara. In response, Blizzard killed 25 man raiding. No 25 man raiding, no problem. lol
    15s only. 15s in Cata LFR would have been a transition period to see whether the format worked during the tail end of Cata.

    But instead they squandered the opportunity and we're stuck with another expansion of the status quo.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    If the fun of raiding 25's alone isn't enough and people need better/exclusive items, than they didn't like 25's enough in the first place and don't even deserve to raid them.

    I really hate this 10vs25-complaining, because it comes down to one thing: "I demand to raid 25's but I do not want to put any effort into it if it doesn't give better stuff! QQQQQ"
    Seriously, man up!
    You either like 25's enough to do the effort or you don't like them.
    I completely agree. I'm probably going to get infracted for this, but WoW raiders are a bunch of pussies. In Everquest, the normal raid size was 54 players. And at one point, the hardest raids in the game were 72-man raids (and the server I was on had successful PUGs with that many people). People didn't bitch about organizing that many people, they just did it.

    Giving unique items/mounts/titles/achievements to 25 man raids is not the way to go (though I wouldn't mind the server first feats of strength to be separated for 10 and 25 - but only the feats of strength). The solution they have proposed (giving a higher chance of better items in 25 man, but still having a smaller chance of those better items in 10 man) is the best, most fair solution I've heard anyone say.

    The other good solution is to lower the cost of server transfers. I don't think it should be free, but I do think the cost is a lot higher than it needs to be. It's a huge risk to jump servers to join a new guild to raid with, but they do need to have some monetary cost so troublemakers can't just jump servers every month once they've screwed over a bunch of people.

  9. #309
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Daveon View Post
    I completely agree. I'm probably going to get infracted for this, but WoW raiders are a bunch of pussies. In Everquest, the normal raid size was 54 players. And at one point, the hardest raids in the game were 72-man raids (and the server I was on had successful PUGs with that many people). People didn't bitch about organizing that many people, they just did it.
    .
    They left to play wow instead, more like.

  10. #310
    A small percent of guilds do heroic raids, should we remove that content too? Wowprogress puts 37,000 MSV first boss kills, being generous and calling them all 25 man, that still is only 900k players. So, 10% of the playerbase does raids... remove that too.


    What a horrible mindset.

  11. #311
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    The absolute Sub peak was after the first year of WotLK.
    What we had in place back than was two separate lockouts for 10 and 25 man. We had different achievements. And as for gear, we had a better item level in 25 man.
    200 (10 man) vs 213 (25 man). Why not simply returning to that system? It appears that this system was the one with the most acceptance amongst the players.
    Sure.. Blizzard says, people felt like they are forced into doing BOTH lockouts every week. Well, that may be even true in parts.
    I believe, if the item level difference would be smaller than back then, it wouldn't create such pressure at all. Why does it have to be 13 points, and not just anywhere between 3 and 6 points? Slightly better stats, which don't do too much for the average raider.
    The only aspect I really see is that people gear up a lot faster with the chance of running both lockouts. That translates into Blizzard needs to create more content. Almost at twice the speed. The question it boils down to is, whether there are enough players raiding to justify that amount of costs for more content production, or not.

    Now for the incentives. I've read a lot of posts in here about it. Some of them made me laugh, because they sounded as they were written by some drama queens.
    To be clear. Yes, there is a lot more involved with having a 25 man raid maintained than there is with a 10 man. The logistic efforts are just significantly higher.
    But, there's also advantages, and more so, there are handling issues that don't have to be an issue at all.
    No, it's not really the job of the guild lead/raid lead to make sure everyone is prepared. That's an individual responsibility. I've always believed (and acted that way) that it's part of every single raiders dedication will to be prepared.. Food and Buffs in form of flasks, potions, elixirs are not the guild's responsibility. They are individual responsibilities, and if you fail to fulfill them, don't be surprised to get benched for someone who shows more enthusiasm and dedication.
    A good guild has flasks and food as backup, just in case, and the raiders buy that from the guild at mats prices. Even repairs aren't the guilds sole responsibility.
    I understand, and I know things have changed lately. And those things are now rather taken for granted. Yet this is exactly a contribution to the biggest problem, to the root of the problem at hand. The players mind set. The hand out freebie mentality of the players increased, and guilds only contribute to that, by handing out everything that supposed to be the raiders responsibility. And in the end, they wonder why they constantly have to re-fill their ranks.
    Raiding should be a special event. 25 like minded people should enjoy the few hours together. And that's what it essentially was once before.
    Today. People getting recruited into guilds, the social components are rather neglected, insults during raids happen (which should never happen amongst guild mates), and the bond that gets a group to push beyond an edge often fails. Too many people don't identify themselves with their guilds anymore. Progress is all that matters.
    They often stick around until they can't get anymore upgrades, then they jump ships. The next guild is farther and they may just make them able to get another upgrade.
    So yeah, raiding isn't about loot, is the most romantic myth, but just that, a myth... Far from reality as a whole.
    But back to the 25 man incentives.. Those have to be found. I am not sure if the new solution changes much. I am even less sure if they address the issue correctly.
    Because I do not believe that the raiders themselves deserve any incentive. It's the people who organize it. If anything at all, it should be some incentive given to the guilds. Something that encourages Guild Leaders and Raid leaders to put that extra efforts into it.
    Be it free bank tabs. Mounts only available for guild leaders, or what every else.. It's almost impossible to create such incentives, and ensure they go to the right people.
    One thing I can see would be for a guild to go back to the old days, delegate the responsibilities back to the raiders as a whole. Don't hand out repairs, and use the incoming gold to give it to the officers according to their efforts, or buy some stuff for them as thank you gestures.
    All in all.. the community sense needs to be brought back into the game. And that's not on Blizzard alone. That's a change that has to happen on the base. has to happen on guild level.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    They left to play wow instead, more like.
    Yes, WoW killed Everquest. But not just because WoW was WoW... but because WoW came out while most raiders in Everquest were trying to get through the Gates of Discord tiers. Gates of Discord had tiers of raiding similar to BC, and was so brutally hard (arguably the most difficult raid encounters in any MMO ever) that people just plain gave up in waves. And it caused wave after wave of re-flagging and re-keying new recruits to guilds, so you had to go back to earlier tiers to catch up new people or they just plain couldn't raid with you (they couldn't even enter the instance), which caused even more people to move over to WoW. (Hmm, is there a lesson here?)

  13. #313
    I especially love the posts that go along the lines of, "Blizz sucks ballz for forcing me to 10 man raid and those of 10 man raids complaining that blizz is forcing them to 25 man raid can go #^@% a mule because I don't like 10 man raiding and I'm the only one who counts because I am me and not you!" Waaaaaaah! Hypocrisy at its finest.

  14. #314
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    It's way to late for blizz to do this. I don't see how this encourages players to form 25man raids. It's a cookie to the existing 25m guilds but until they make lockouts separate again nothing will change. As a 25m raider I feel i'm being forced to go 10m if i want to raid. It's a dread finding 25m guilds that aren't already falling apart .. + you'll be paying for faction change/realm transfer without any guarantee that they stay 25m. I've experienced so myself..

  15. #315
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    It's way to late for blizz to do this. I don't see how this encourages players to form 25man raids. It's a cookie to the existing 25m guilds but until they make lockouts separate again nothing will change. As a 25m raider I feel i'm being forced to go 10m if i want to raid. It's a dread finding 25m guilds that aren't already falling apart .. + you'll be paying for faction change/realm transfer without any guarantee that they stay 25m. I've experienced so myself..
    And if lockouts were separate, you'd want to do 10ms for extra loot
    Active WoW player Jan 2006 - Aug 2020
    Occasional WoW Classic Andy since.
    Nothing lasts forever, as they say.
    But at least I can casually play Classic and remember when MMORPGs were good.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    A small percent of guilds do heroic raids, should we remove that content too?
    Yes. If your goal is making the average wow player happy.
    Wowprogress puts 37,000 MSV first boss kills, being generous and calling them all 25 man, that still is only 900k players. So, 10% of the playerbase does raids... remove that too.


    What a horrible mindset.
    What - it's a horrible mindset to give the average player of a game more what he wants rather than chucking resources at some niche players? Dont think so.

  17. #317
    I am Murloc! Grym's Avatar
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    Won't happen.

    Blizzard did not want to give higher ilvl to 25man raid (already said so in Blues)
    Blizzard did not even wanted to give 25man upgraded gear
    Blizzard decided to give 25man higher RNG for something that is also obtainable in 10s.

    Reason being is they won't want to add anything exclusive to 25man, because now the 10man raid are pretty much taking over, adding something exclusive will either cause all the 10man guilds to QQ, and made some of them go back to 25man even if they didn't enjoy it.

    Blizzard wanted to make the 10/25 purely a choice, by adding a slightly higher RNG, still a choice, because what you can obtain is still available in 10s, the moment you add something exclusive, for many people it will stop becoming a choice. Compare the amount of 25man and 10man out there, which one do you think Blizzard would want to avoid QQ from?

    Even the recent change had made some of the 10man guilds out there QQ already, can you imagine the QQ if they add something exclusive?

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Grym View Post
    Even the recent change had made some of the 10man guilds out there QQ already, can you imagine the QQ if they add something exclusive?
    And you know what, it's the wrong kind of change. Split the first kill achievements. Then we'll see who wants to play what. That's the core of the problem for many players. Loot is a good thing to bitch about, but what it boils down to is achievement listings.

  19. #319
    10m and 25m content needs to be separate at this point. 15m raids won't solve any problems. Players, like in TBC, need to learn to think for themselves instead of having content handed to them on a silver platter. Want to see it? COOPERATE WITH EACH OTHER!

    ...but wait, we don't like the other 10m guilds! We want to do it on our own!
    This is when you have to slow down on progression and gear up new recruits or pug on your own loot system. My TBC guild started out as a single Kara late-night 10m group but pugged 15 others, mostly those not in guilds or that weren't able to raid with their existing guild because of schedules but didn't want to join ours outright (surprising, eh? not back then). We had to keep running Kara to gear some pugs because they didn't have critical gear, sure, but that's how things worked and we accepted it whole-heartedly.

    Eventually we went from RRMS to a form of group-based DKP that was acknowledged and accepted by the pugs. Sure, you could still join and not have DKP and still walk away with loot because if we had to randomly pug more than our primary group we still went RRMS (and gave all attended DKP so that, if they became regulars, they would have it) but overall DKP won out. We cleared through Gruul/Mag and well into SS/Eye albeit a bit slower because we had to gear people more often. At this point, we guild-tagged everyone and made BT and eventually SWP runs as a fully-fledged guild capable of holding its own.

    My point? Cooperation is key. It might slow you down a bit and you may end up gearing more players than you intended to but you can still see the content as it comes. You need to be smart players and work with each other instead of taking the game for granted. I know it's not a job, but all of life is about learning to live with and work with other people. Why shouldn't games built around the social aspects of life be any different?
    Last edited by treehumper; 2013-01-24 at 05:48 PM.

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    And you know what, it's the wrong kind of change. Split the first kill achievements. Then we'll see who wants to play what. That's the core of the problem for many players. Loot is a good thing to bitch about, but what it boils down to is achievement listings.
    I don't see how something which only interests a couple of dozen people per server will change things much in 25 mans favour, really.

    Unless I am missing something? Are the 15th guild to clear content really that bothered about this kinda of thing?

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