Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[Deleted]

I suggest you try making some sensible points, rather than acting smug while doing nothing but asserting things without proof, argument or logic.

I did, but you're unable to say you don't agree.

I understand your "logic" just fine.

again you use fallacies. How mature.

You don't want to do 25 mans, but you also don't want 25 mans to get unique rewards that you can't get in 10 mans.

No, that isn't what I wrote, that is what you conclude, and this conclusion is wrong. I am not raiding at all, I already did the content I find challenging and worthy (challenge modes) since I do not want to grind and repeat content. I find it a waste of my time (just like this discussion if you can call it like that). Don't mix my personal viewpoint or current preference with my opinion on 10m with 25m.

You're still not making an argument why 10 and 25 shouldn't be separate achievement because they are, by definition, different things (other than you don't want other people to have things that you don't, nor do you want to put in the effort to get those things for yourself).

I gave a reason why they should be separated, but you don't find it valid. That's fair enough, how difficult is it for you to agree to disagree?

Stop trying to deflect. This is about separate titles and achievements for 10/25, not about abolishing one mode. That's a separate discussion.

..but that is the solution which works on a grander scale.

Why are you droning on about that? You still haven't answered the question I asked. You're just deflecting with walls of text. 10 mans are perfectly doable with one person in charge, 25 mans require more skilled players to delegate.

I answered your question, but you did not want to understand it. If you have specific question, feel free. You haven't proven anything except from your personal anecdote which is to me worth toilet paper.

And I'll leave it at that. Have fun 25m groupies, you should meet a bar and dance and tell each other your anecdotes. I'm sure you'll all get along!!

[Granyala]

If the title is bound to do all content in that tier on the same difficulty, which is rather difficult to program

Wrong. That's very easy. The tech already is in the game. you just don't only track the end boss, but all bosses instead. -> tadaa.

However, I think the Idea is terrible. What if a person wants to raid on multiple chars? What if he has a very capable alt 10m raid, why shouldn't he get the title? After all It's "Put in the effort" and "get the appropriate reward".

So instead of a stupid account lock, I would make the titles mutually exclusive but character based. So the main can have it's 25m title, but not the 10m and the alt can have the 10m title but not the 25m.

But again, that would go against everything Blizzard tried to achieve when they made stuff like that account wide.

[Deleted]

[...] Now you're a programming expert with deep knowledge of Blizzard's codebase too?

The point here was that, if you killed one boss on 10m instead of 25m, or one boss on 25m instead of 10m, your title would be void. Killing some bosses on 10m and some on 25m is a tactic top 25m guilds currently use in the first week of normal mode which gives them a gear advantage (another one of those advantages of 25m since it is much easier to organize there) but it'd make them void their title if you'd make a lock on it depending on content done. Else, well then it only matters for the successful kill of last boss on HC. That's rather limiting.

[Deleted]

I did, but you're unable to say you don't agree.

Huh? Are you under the impression that I agree with you?

again you use fallacies. How mature.

Acting smug again with no basis, how constructive.

No, that isn't what I wrote, that is what you conclude, and this conclusion is wrong.

It is what you're arguing. If not, then you did a spectacularly poor job of expressing yourself.

I answered your question, but you did not want to understand it. If you have specific question, feel free. You haven't proven anything except from your personal anecdote which is to me worth toilet paper.

Proven? Which part of the argument here you think requires a "proof"? My argument is simple: 10 and 25 man modes are different, by definition, therefore they should have different achievements and titles as well. It's not so hard to follow, is it?

---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 02:44 PM ----------

The point here was that, if you killed one boss on 10m instead of 25m, or one boss on 25m instead of 10m, your title would be void. Killing some bosses on 10m and some on 25m is a tactic top 25m guilds currently use in the first week of normal mode which gives them a gear advantage (another one of those advantages of 25m since it is much easier to organize there) but it'd make them void their title if you'd make a lock on it depending on content done. Else, well then it only matters for the successful kill of last boss on HC. That's rather limiting.

What on earth are you driveling about? To get a 25 man achievement you need to kill the boss in 25 man mode, or to get an achievement for the whole raid you need to kill all the bosses in that mode.

If you kill half the bosses in 10 man and half in 25 man, then you get achievements for each boss in it's particular mode ("Boss 1, 10man", "Boss 2, 25 man", etc.). You could also get a "Cleared the whole raid in mixed/whatever mode" title/achievement, but not the "Cleared the whole raid in 10" or "Cleared the whole raid in 25" titles/achievements.

[Deleted]

You're not proving anything, you're just extrapolating your theory. I might as well put you in a cage with the other 25m parrots and you'd all get to convince each other of how awesome you are and how bad your competition is. You're a complete waste of time even being read, and your rant is quite incoherent.

Oh yes i did, and your statement(as oposed to argument), alongside with the "parrot" comment doesnt change anything.

The top guilds are able to keep their 25 core easily alive, by feeding from 10m and the mid tier 25m. The mid tier 25m implode, making the difficulty largely irrelevant if not only for LFR. I have no doubt in my mind 10man top guilds wouldn't have much of a problem getting such a 25m achievement. Its the mid tier who cares about it, and who have difficulty achieving them.

There we go again. There is not a single mid tier guild done with the content, as such there is not a single purpose for your argument to continue. For the few mid tier 25s left that would and are able to swap to 10 it would be right now for progress and not for achievement. Further more, in every single one of them that does it you see a future 10, as such, you re damned if you do, you re damned if you don't.
Back to square one dear Watson.

The different titles made sense when difficulty locks were separated but right now they're not separated so the different titles don't make sense anymore.

10=/=25.
As such different tittles and achievements will always make sence and encounter tuning, often out of balance anyway, is largely irrelevant.
What is relevant is the fear that 10 man parrots will feel they lost in terms of prestige. And we dont want to hurt them now do we?

Furthermore the entire discussion has been rinsed and repeated in thousand fold in various threads where I saw you and the other 25m parrots participate as well. We brought nothing new on the plate, its a pointless thread about a pointless discussion because the long-term solution is unfortunately not implemented by Blizzard given they fear the subscriber rate will go down if they implement a switch of difficulty to 15m this late in the game. Which means they're likely keeping it as-is while milking out the game, with LFR being an excuse to keep 25m alive. Rest assured no other game will make the same mistake (BW/SWTOR was dumb enough to copy even that).

I wish a single size would be the prevalent choice.
I have argued many times in favor of it, since it is clearly a superior choice in every aspect, the way things ended up being (and it was predictable where things will end up being after blizzard opened the Pandora's box at July 2010).

Having said that, on the 10vs25 situation things are pretty crystal clear.
It was a mistake, it was unfair, it was bad for the game what happened with these changes.
Now it is done and the consequences are still upon us.
To change that only a fresh start could be a solution.
Not 10
Nor 25
Nor more 10vs25.
A single size in between, and 15 is so popular right now (even after blizzard boycoted it by turning down hopes that we will see it happening) that it cannot be ignored.

[Sansnom]

That won't happen, because the whole point of 10 mans is to allow an easier path to the same rewards as 25 mans. If the titles were different, 10 man raiders could no longer pretend that what they do is the same as 25 man raiders, and there would be no end to the crying and whining.

Oh please, stop the whole crap that 25m is true raiding and 10m is pretend. 10m allows a different path than 25m. Some encounters are harder in 25m, others are harder in 10m.

I think its you 25m raiders who are doing all the crying and whining.

[Deleted]

Oh please, stop the whole crap that 25m is true raiding and 10m is pretend.

I don't consider 10 man raiding to be on the same level as 25 man raiding. Sorry, I just don't.

[Deleted]

Oh please, stop the whole crap that 25m is true raiding and 10m is pretend. 10m allows a different path than 25m. Some encounters are harder in 25m, others are harder in 10m.

I think its you 25m raiders who are doing all the crying and whining.

I also dont consider them the same.
Level of skill of an individual team is rather irrelevant.
You can have an awesome 10 man team and an awfull 25 man team.
But the 2 modes are different.
Offering something different is the reason for their existance side by side in the first place.
As such awarding the same achievement for two people, doing something different is simply illogical and it can be explained only the way i explained it to lolalola.

Certain 10 man raiders have inferiority syndrom and are afraid that something different will be deemed as something superior.
Different=/=superior but it seems like a concept too hard to grasp.
Not for me, not for many.
And i raid 10 man.

[Morbownz]

They should advertise them differently to add prestige or take away in some cases, this is might affect the way raiders think about the content.

Think Diablo 3, Normal - Nightmare - Hell - Inferno - each is easily distinguishable from the other.

So, 10 man Dragon Soul wouldnt be DS 10 (trade language)... it would be DS Challenger or a name that suggests tough but certainely a just a warm up mode for the l33t.
DS 25 man would obviously have a "cooler" name to suggest "I don't need no warm up, I killed the LK when it was cool to kill the LK".
Obviously they could go even further with Heroic and Elite versions, but perhaps raiding needs a little more Promo in itself.

[Deleted]

The programming comment refers to the distinction between 10m and 25m where players don't stick to the size but switch (which is easier to do for 25m). I'm sorry you were unable to grasp that, but given I even provided an example that's on your account.

I wish a single size would be the prevalent choice.
I have argued many times in favor of it, since it is clearly a superior choice in every aspect, the way things ended up being (and it was predictable where things will end up being after blizzard opened the Pandora's box at July 2010).

Having said that, on the 10vs25 situation things are pretty crystal clear.
It was a mistake, it was unfair, it was bad for the game what happened with these changes.
Now it is done and the consequences are still upon us.
To change that only a fresh start could be a solution.
Not 10
Nor 25
Nor more 10vs25.
A single size in between, and 15 is so popular right now (even after blizzard boycoted it by turning down hopes that we will see it happening) that it cannot be ignored.

That we agree on. So if we would have approx 15m Looking For Raid, Normal, Heroic, Challenge Mode they'd cater to all 4 different types of players with the possibility to further differentiate. I don't see how to further differentiate on this type of content.

Challenge Mode wise I'm not sure it'd work with the timer but I envision a type of way to scale down your gear a-la debuff / Herald of the Titans, so that for example a player can go back to Ulduar and play it the way it was designed instead of doing the content with a few people to faceroll it. This type of content is timeless because difficulty remains approx the same, and can remain to signify a gimmick reward.

The current design where new content = hot, and any old content = useless (barring transmog) very much reminds me of MtG type II which of course makes sense for WotC (they earn money on new cards) but in the WoW case what matters is whether people stay subbed to play the game. Most people will automatically care for the new content since that's where the majority is headed, but if a number of people are up for say Ulduar challenge mode then this also shuts up a part of those who "root back to the good ol' times" (the nostalgia factor) and keeps those subscribed.

It wouldn't surprise me if this is the major feature of MoP, in 5.3: challenge mode content for raids, including (some) previous ones. Of course such a challenge mode retroactively would be a lot of work, but the technology is there.

Now since Blizzard isn't switching to a one size fits all type I say when a company no longer dares to innovate since they fear to lose subscribers they're on their way out. Why would you continue to play such a game? Is the WoW player base ready for a new chapter in MMORPG history?

[THoyt]

You're playing on a 50" TV what do you expect?

Just like to point out, it doesn't matter if its a 50" TV, it could be a 100' screen. 1080p is 1080p, no matter the size of the display.

Carry on...

[Granyala]

The programming comment refers to the distinction between 10m and 25m where players don't stick to the size but switch (which is easier to do for 25m). I'm sorry you were unable to grasp that, but given I even provided an example that's on your account.

Achievement tracking doesn't work that way. If it requires you to kill a 25m boss, you can kill the 10man counterpart 100 times, it won't count towards the achievement.

I know it must be confusing for you, b/c Pandaria got rid of the separate achievements, but the code is existent and functional. During wrath, you only could get achievements for your raid size. They got rid of it b/c some AC-hunters whined that they have to do them twice.

[Woeful]

I have raided 25s in hard mode progression and I have raided 10's. Personally I enjoy the 10s more, primarily because 10's seem to produce a tighter knit bunch that feels more like a team. With that said, I do think that Blizzard has created a problem that needs a solution.

I see the issue as being fairly easily stated. There are inherent barriers that make participating in 25 man raiding difficult. The barriers are two fold in nature.

On the one hand guild leadership has to constantly recruit and the guild has to constantly train and gear new raiders. This barrier becomes more significant as the particular guild progresses and needs more than just a warm body. The guild also needs personnel (players) who are experienced, competent and geared for the content. Additionally a 25 man guild has 2.5 higher chances that someone is a member of the core raiding team will become unavailable for a given night. This requires that the 25 man guild not only have 25 dependable people, but a few people who are willing to sit on standby and participate on less regular basis.

Players who want to participate in 25 man raiding are also presented with their own challenges. The challenges of even finding a 25 man guild are much larger than the general wow population understands. On a lower pop server there might not be a 25 man raiding guild that fits the player's particular needs. Even if a 25 man guild is located and recruiting, they are less likely to recruit you or your character unless you fit a particular need or you are willing to sit in a back up role for an extended period of time.

Changing servers is not always the answer. Going from a low population server to a server with a number of 25 man raiding guilds does not automatically mean that the player will be accepted or recruited to join. Further joining in a casual or back up role does not guarantee a meaningful experience. Sitting on the outside looking in while the guild is clearing the instance up to its current level of progression so that a full time raiding player has a chance at a piece of loot, while the backup player who desperately needs the practice on the encounters and the gear is extraordinarily frustrating.

Finally 25 man progression guilds, especially guilds that are pushing hard mode content are not looking for just any player. And the average player can't step in and fulfill the role, even with sufficient gear. There are players who have experience and dare I say the talent to raid hard mode 25's but choose to stay in a 10 man guild or decide to play wow in a more casual manner.

I see the solutions as being 2 fold.

1. Use all the incentives that have been explained above to encourage 25 man participation. Exclusive skins, heck even reward one or two valor points for trash kills beyond the first boss in hard mode content. Give the player every incentive to participate.

2. Adjust the 10 man and 25 man loot tables to reflect a difference in the content. 4 item level points is not game breaking.

3. Separate the lock outs between 10 man and 25 man. This was changed to keep players from double dipping the raids, gearing up and making the content obsolete. However, allowing someone like me to participate in a 25 man raid with out destroying my 10 man lock out gives me greater opportunities to enjoy the game. Lowers the barriers for joining and participating in 25 man raids, and increases the pool of talent that guild leadership can utilize to form 25 mam raids.

[Nadev]

About the only thing I would support for 25 mans is giving them an additional piece of loot. Exclusive mounts and stuff? Yea, no.

[Granyala]

Very nice post, Woeful. Spot on the problems we have.

[Deleted]

Achievement tracking doesn't work that way. If it requires you to kill a 25m boss, you can kill the 10man counterpart 100 times, it won't count towards the achievement.

I know it must be confusing for you, b/c Pandaria got rid of the separate achievements, but the code is existent and functional.

We were talking about titles in relation to those achievements and the required different mindset such as "didn't get my title cause I killed boss X on 10m first FUUUU". It'd also break meta achievements since they can't proc.

During wrath, you only could get achievements for your raid size. They got rid of it b/c some AC-hunters whined that they have to do them twice.

We can only speculate why it was removed.

[Granyala]

We can only speculate why it was removed.

Not really. Feedback back then was pretty clear.
Apart from the whine, Blizzard wanted to make 10m as equal to 25m as possible. (HUGE mistake, imo)

We were talking about titles in relation to those achievements and the required different mindset such as "didn't get my title cause I killed boss X on 10m first FUUUU". It'd also break meta achievements since they can't proc.

You still don't get it.
If you kill it on 10 first, it counts towards the 10m meta. That doesn't prevent you from getting credit for the 25m meta.

In this fictive scenario, you would get the title of which achievement you had completed first. Basically you could kill all except one boss in both modes, and wherever you killed the last boss would decide what title you get. After that, the other achievement would become unobtainable.

[Deleted]

[...]

I see the solutions as being 2 fold.

1. Use all the incentives that have been explained above to encourage 25 man participation. Exclusive skins, heck even reward one or two valor points for trash kills beyond the first boss in hard mode content. Give the player every incentive to participate.

2. Adjust the 10 man and 25 man loot tables to reflect a difference in the content. 4 item level points is not game breaking.

3. Separate the lock outs between 10 man and 25 man. This was changed to keep players from double dipping the raids, gearing up and making the content obsolete. However, allowing someone like me to participate in a 25 man raid with out destroying my 10 man lock out gives me greater opportunities to enjoy the game. Lowers the barriers for joining and participating in 25 man raids, and increases the pool of talent that guild leadership can utilize to form 25 mam raids.

In other words ICC with ilvl differences, different loot tables removed. What if a former 25m HC player goes 10m HC? If the ilvl increase is required for competitive content, why not just nerf 25m HC instead? Do you mean something like a VP upgrade on the item already present 1/2 instead of 0/2? The separate lockouts is another advantage for 25m raiding teams because they can easily organize both. Why do you find the higher drop chance of loot from trash not better than getting VP from trash? If the boss is harder to kill on difficulty X, then it could offer increasing rewards, such as better loot or more VP or whatever, but that's a can of worms.

---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 05:07 PM ----------

You still don't get it.
If you kill it on 10 first, it counts towards the 10m meta. That doesn't prevent you from getting credit for the 25m meta.

I know how it works, I played back then. I am talking about this hypothesis of this explanation based on title. My understanding was a reference to a title like The Fearless or The Light of Dawn the latter of which was coined in that past. So why are you talking about titles related to achievement? I have no idea. What I'm saying is you can use either 10m or 25m to build your way up to receive loot to attempt Sha of Fear HC.

In this fictive scenario, you would get the title of which achievement you had completed first. Basically you could kill all except one boss in both modes, and wherever you killed the last boss would decide what title you get. After that, the other achievement would become unobtainable.

In this fictional example, in DS you could then do Spine on 10m, and Madness on 25m. You'd get the 25m HC title for Madness, while you evaded to do the 10m difficulty. Because contrary to the parrot belief here some fights are harder on 10m, and some of 25m. If you allow the player to play on either difficulty to get the title its just as backwards as the system is right now provided you support that notion, and on top of that only the last boss in the instance would matter.

[Granyala]

What the hell are you rabbling on about lolalola? Roflstomping 10mHC progression with 25m HC gear? You do realize that you have to PROGRESS AND KILL the 25m bosses to get said gear. By the time you have a gear level enabling you to roflstomp 10m, good 10m guilds will be finished with their progression anyway.

Of course if you are in a bad one and don't want pesky 25m parrots™ to achieve what you achieved more easily later on... erm.. no that can't be it.

Server first kill titles?
For these you can change raidsize to roflstomp fights like Will on 10m HC, but that can be very easily remedied with tech that already is in the game.
(Not all that is tracked must have a visible achievement tied to it)

I'm merely talking about programming effort, which would be quite minimal since Blizzard just needs to combine what's already in the game.

[Woeful]

I know that I am suggesting an ICC style model. The question is how to maintain 25 man raiding, because there is a sense that 25 raiding is fading to an extent that Blizzard would no longer find it cost effective to create 25 man content.

With that in mind. Increasing the item levels appeals to the population that has to have the best stuff right now. This is part of the encouragement to participate in 25 mans. I am not suggesting that 25 mans, especially 25 man hard modes be nerfed. They exist to satisfy a particular type of wow player and represent the best that wow has to offer with regards to raiding content.

What I am trying to suggest, is there are groups of players, who are no longer participating in 25 man content. These are geared players with the talent and skill but are not interested in signing up for the lifestyle change that 25 man raiding can require. Lowering the barriers to these people is where the solution lies. Encouraging guilds to seek out players who raid primarily 10 man, but are available on an off night to fill a role in a 25 man, goes a long way to helping the problem.

Stated easily. I could easily drop out of a 25 man hard core guild and find a 10 man guild to suit my life style and my personality. I can't easily (dare say its impossible) to go from a 10 man guild and enter a 25 man guild who is trying to progress.