Let them die.
Let them die.
Getting rid of the shared lockout would be a damn good start. Gives players more to do as we have twice the amount of raids we can do. I can run a guild 10 man and pug a 25 if I want to. or vice versa. That alone would make me happy. Atm i have to run 10 mans as I cant find a decent 25 man guild. Would love to get back into 25's.
I am just gonna keep praying for them to make one raid size. 15 mans - for all 3 types: LFR, Normals and HCs. Would simplify things a lot. Maybie next expansion?
3 manning all Challenge Modes on GOLD! - Youtube.com/MyCelar
So much this.
Not even my normal raiders have a proper idea of how much work goes in to maintain a successful 25-man raiding guild to appreciate how much the officers sacrifice.
During raid we have to plan the roster and rotate people in and out depending on progression or gear. Then comes raid leading the actual encounter (or as they say, herding 24 cats). After the boss dies? Loot distribution which usually comes with some PMs about how who needs what, who rolled on what by mistake and stuff. To minimise downtime the rest go on ahead to clear the trash to the next boss while the officers do rotation of the raiders again based on progression/ gear needs.
Repeat this throughout the raid. And there's problem-solving too for progression fights.
Outside of raid, people seem to think the officers idle about dangling their legs over the guild bank. Allow me to dispel that ideal situation.
When raid's not going on, officers are:
- Discussing if trials passed or failed, then approaching said trials to relay this.
- Acting as councillors to every guild member and their dog for any problems they encounter. Or just plain QQ.
- Sorting out logistics like flask/ pot/ food mats for the Guild Bank.
- Recruiting on various mediums like in-game Trade Chat, official forums, fan sites (aka WoWhead, MMO-Champion, WoWProgress, Guild OX).
- Researching how to solve any problems the raid encounters.
- Trawling logs for hiccups or screwups.
- Managing DKP or whatever other loot distribution system you may use.
- Reviewing attendance and attitude of raiders.
It's VERY hard work especially when you already have a full-time job like all my fellow officers do. Why do we do this? Because we LIKE 25-man raiding and stepped up to the job. Does it mean we enjoy all this extra work though? No. Given the chance to find another person who can take over my place, I'd love to be a normal raider. That is not the case though, and this situation where recruitment is so hard for a format that really gives us nothing of value over an easier managed 10-man format is wearing us very thin.
Something they've known about and acknowledged for quite a while actually. And "dying" is probably too strong a word.
I have to admit, I think it unlikely. "A small chance to get a slightly better weapon" vs "I can raid NOW....with MY friends" will probably emnd up as BAN.Naturally, the player base understands that this "incentive" will not bolster the 25 man raiding community.
No, they said 25s would lose numbers because of the logistics issues. Blizzard agreed.Blizzard did not listen to their players, the guys in the trenches raiding and playing for hours and hours. When they first announced that they were going to normalize gear for both 10 and 25 mans, every single person I knew echoed the exact same sentiment, "Well, 25mans are going to die now." And, surprise surprise, the players were correct.
Not actually an issue. Well...not a major one.Without speedy corrections, I think it's safe to say that the 25 man raiding community will dwindle down to an extremely small niche group. The danger of this is that if the community becomes too small, it is no longer cost effective for Blizzard to create or maintain 25 man content. This is just a fact of business. Without corrective action, it won't be the players who end 25 man raiding (as there will always be some who will keep it alive) but Blizzard, because, let's face it, money talks.
Blizzard has to scale raids layouts for 25 because of LFR. It has to develop mechanics for 10s. So everything is in place for 25 man raiding whether 25 man raiding is in place or not. All that really needs to be done is tuning.
Mostly - there are some other factors.Many, many players seem to be in agreement that the problem with 25s is a logistical one.
Then you never met a raider.I think this simply shows how out-of-touch they are with the 25 man raiding community as I have never met a 25man raider who was after "loot."
Most of them are after loot.Having said that, it would make sense to think that the solution should be one that addresses a 25 man raiders core desire... prestige.
I'll stop you right there. Unique and exclusive rewards of any kind are rewards that Blizzard has often ruled out because it will force players to take part in content they can dislike. There may be times that may be desireable in some way....such as the legendary questline...but generally speaking, it probably isn't acceptable as the standard way of doing things.Such as (some of which have/are already present):
EJL
Just wording but the result is the same.
That's true. I completely forgot about LFR in my OP. Brain fart for sure.
It's the only solution. Whether you or Blizzard likes it or not. They've said they want to save the 25 man scene. So, either they'll change their mind and let it do whatever it will do while they continue on their current path. Or, they'll have to implement some form of exclusivity for the format. Take their current idea, the new weapons, they'll have to make the drop rate disparity so significant that it'll almost be exclusive to the 25 man format for it to have any effect. This will be the case for any similar idea. It's simply impossible to keep 10 and 25s completely even while trying to encourage people to run the more "PITA" format. So, they'll either go back on what they said about saving 25s or they'll go back on what they've said about exclusive rewards/titles/achievements/etc. One way or another Blizzard will have to go back on what they've said.
Well if I had to pick a couple of things I wouldn't leave 10-man raiding for:
Give 10 and 25-man different mutually exclusive achievements for killing raid bosses, make them worth the same amount of points and you can only get one - whichever mode your kill all the bosses in first.
Different Titles for 10-man clears and 25-man clears, again you only get one, whichever mode you clear first.
If people want some sort of shiny to show they raid 25-man then fine, but they don't deserve to go cheese the 10-mans with ideal comps after they're done with 25s; especially now they're going to be given better chances at higher ilvl drops.
I feel that really won't be enough incentive for most people to raid 25-mans though, as it certainly wouldn't be enough to get me to switch.
This would allow 25-mans to gear up way too fast in comparison to 10s.
2 things should be done to make 25-men more interesting:
1. Lightweight version of client. 25-men is just that so much more hardware demanding now, that many people just don't want to participate in fpsfest.
2. Non-RNG loot based on raid badges, with 25-men having access to more badges per week. But with reasonable ratio, not how it was done with Firelands' convoluted system of making staff, when 25-men started to make their 4th+ staves while 10-men couldn't make even 1 at that moment.
With "Thunderforging" being added in game, it won't help anything: 25-men will become DKP madness, while 10-men will have zero benefits as they don't even see most of normal drops nvm thunderforged. 10-men will just want to clear raids asap and not farm anything till next tier as it is quite frustrating trying to win anything in this lottery, meanwhile 25-men will have even more work to make things going (and whole new level of drama with DKP-hoarders).
They should have just gotten rid of 10 and 25 raiding and switched it all over to 15.
THAT whould be biggest mistake, this is MMO - MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER - where it should be lot of people not freaking 10 OMG_SUPERPOWER_UBERGEARED people that like kill ,for example, Deathwing(a huge dragon that just shattered whole world with wing flapping) this is fucking absurd, this is broking the lore, and broke epic feeling of online game, the bigger raid size the more fun it isget rid of 25, go to 15
(I could say same about arena vs battleground, there are more epic feelings on battlefield neither then in freaking cage)
Fuck the RNG it's really pandora's box, I'm going for freaking staff to drop from tsulong 5 kills (10 chances with coin) no loot, while fucking 2 druids from 10 man both have this staff WTF, and u calling it more loot?!omg 25 getting better loot, RNG
what , I used to play on my 10 years old computer during DS(1gb ram, 1.8Ghz, geforce 6600,) on Ultraxion stacking fight, 25man in 1 place pushing buttons, and u know what? it was fine, 20 fps is enough to push ur buttons see everything around, and have reactionomg I'm lagging in 25
so u rather close p0rn streaming, defragmetation, disk check, angry birds, d3 in background and enjoy battle..instead of telling bullshit that u lag
Last edited by Zstr; 2013-01-24 at 06:16 AM.
Removed shared lockouts
I rather quit raiding than ever have to do 10-man ever. My old disbanded cause hardly anyone wanted to do 10 man we all wanted to do 25 man, but didn't have the committed people for it, so it was either we go 10 man with 2 10 man teams or the guild dies out and it did. I left with most of the raiders and we joined a 25 man raiding guild on another server. Anything is better than having to raid 10-man, even if i have to shell out 25/50 or over 100 bucks to move my raid toons. I have to much honor has a HC raider to ever drop to 10man, even if i have to leave good guild mates & friends behind.
Last edited by Arbs; 2013-01-24 at 06:42 AM.
I don't always hunt things, But when I do, It's because they're things & I'm a Bear.
The result is the same but the intimation that Blizzard didn't foresee this issue is different.
25s are safe for now. It doesn't take much to change a few numbers and the underlying systems have to be developed anyway. A bigger concern would be the worry that 25s don't get enough PTR testing due to low numbers taking part.That's true. I completely forgot about LFR in my OP. Brain fart for sure.
They want a solution that saves 25s but doesn't make the vast majority of raiders who they say are happy with 10 mans feel compelled to move. Unique and exclusive rewards will do just that for a good chunk of that number.It's the only solution.
Which will be a de facto return to the LK/Korean style of gearing and a return to all the issues and problems that format has and is something many Western players do NOT want.Take their current idea, the new weapons, they'll have to make the drop rate disparity so significant that it'll almost be exclusive to the 25 man format for it to have any effect.
No. There are apparently plenty of 25 man guilds crying out for players and supposedly plenty of players aching to join a 25 man guild. There are various issues which prevent them meeting up. Unless you have a goal of ensuring X% of players raid 25s, regardless of their desires, then addressing the various logistics concerns will very likely improve matters.One way or another Blizzard will have to go back on what they've said.
As for extra rewards..the problem is simple. If you provide enough reward to "compensate" players for 25s, you have created enough reward to draw them from 10s and kill off that format. A reward that isn't good enough is worthless, and on that is too good simply switches the problems onto another group of players and solves nothing. Either way, the reward path doesn't appear to be an answer.
EJL
If ppl really wanted to do 25 mans then they would. The fact that even with a little extra loot before and now a chance at higher lvl gear more often screams that Blizzard knows ppl don't want to yet it is being forced onto the game. Often mechanics are easier due to flexibility of roles or ability to swap specs fight to fight with a 25. This is yet another one of their unneeded fixes and stupid over reactions to the ppl that want to hide in a group of 25 for higher loot chances.
"Privilege is invisible to those who have it."
Not sure if your whole post is just a troll but on the offchance... Just because YOU personally didn't get loot, doesn't mean that loot dropped that no one could use. Items dropping that nobody can even use is a huge issue in 10-mans, due to the limited amount of specs that will be present (looking at you int plate).
It's about how fast the raid gears up as a whole, not how fast certain individuals get their epix.
Too much honor? Really? So it is better to leave good ppl and friends behind then raid with a group with 15 less ppl? Where is the honor in bailing on ppl that you care about and care about you as friends should? Ego is the word you might have been looking for. Too much of an ego to do another form of raiding that is just as difficult and in some cases harder then 25s. If you think your honor is based off of the percieved lvl of difficulty of a game you play rather then your actions towars ppl you call friend you are in trouble.
Last edited by Alvito; 2013-01-24 at 07:15 AM.
"Privilege is invisible to those who have it."