Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[Talen]

Read my entire post please. More than 95% of people don't have time to put an effort to run 10 man guild...let alone 25. It's like another job almost and those people want to raid and pick up the loot. You can't just form the guild like that, it takes a looooot of effort. Thus, problem is NOT solved.

So again, we are back to the point that the main problem isn't the incentive for raiders, its the number of players who can and want to lead a 25 man raid.

EJL

[Granyala]

I have an AMD PhenomII dual core, 4gig and a geoforce 560ti with a non solid state 1 terrabyte drive running 70 fps min in a 25 man setting

I call bull. BIG TIME.

I5 3570K Ivy OC'd to 4.2GHz; 7879 OC, 8G Ram. I hover round about at 30 to 40 FPS in a raid. Settings on ultra 8xAA recount enabled (Recount draws A LOT of processing power on older systems).

[Mission]

I dont like the change at all.

There has been NO 25 man guilds on the realm I am on, since mid wotlk, and that was 1 guild that xfered away cause they couldnt recruit and went too 10 mans elsewhere.

I raid for loot and for downing content, to down content = loot, loot = assistance too progress further.
10 mans are easier to manage, and are the only choice on dead realms.

I miss 25 mans, the fun and excitement of it, compared to 10 mans. On other token I like 10 mans because its easier to manage and have come used too 10 mans because there is no hope in hell to enter into a 25 man raid on a low pop realm, where its hard enough to recruit for a sub/fill-in when needed as it is.

I think adding in higher ilvl too try and encourage more 25 man raids is unfair to the people forced to do 10 mans because of dead servers.
High pop realms who do not have many 25 mans is a different story.

Merge dead realms, or allow free xfers off of them for starters, would help too see an increase in more 25 mans.

I dont see cross realm raids making much difference to current tier raids tbh.

Shared lockout half killed it as did the equalness of ilvl, when they made ilvl same in 10 and 25, alot shifted to 10 man as it was not needed to stay 25 man, look at those facts, so alot who say they dont raid 25 man for higher ilvl is garbage.

[Chaochamp]

The only way we'll see 25 mans come back to their former glory is if they reverted the system back to the style WotLK had. No amount of vanity can change someone's mind as much as a direct difference in item level and stats.

[Mission]

The only way we'll see 25 mans come back to their former glory is if they reverted the system back to the style WotLK had. No amount of vanity can change someone's mind as much as a direct difference in item level and stats.

^ This, and this is why ppl went to 10 mans, was no need too raid 25 man as they did not stand out any different, and goes back to same garbage "I dont raid for loot" Bullshit. ilvl was set same for both 10 and 25s, alot went to 10s. Put it back to way it was, be a shit load back in 25 mans for the higher ilvl.

Thats how it is.

[teddytous]

I know people will despise this comment immensely, but make them actually different content - as in complete raids. But on the same tier, not 10<25s.

Unique rewards for 10s, unique rewards for 25s. 2 10 mans gang up to do 25s, 25s can split and do 2 10s. Some fights/stories make more sense on 10 or 25 either.... like Lich king? Idk feels more right on 10 man.... death wing - now thats gotta be a 25.....

Just might help people be more social, 10 man guilds joining forces, 25 mans pulling in pugs to make 3 10s... /shrug. Hate away...

[Talen]

Yes, given the different tactics required it is sufficient of a separate achivement.

So - what counts?

Different tactics due to raid size?
Different tactics due to gear?
Different tactics due to raid make up?

Should I get one achievement at the start for finishing the raid and another at the end for being able to steamroller through it when I out gear it? Different tactics, after all, require different achievements.

What if I want to try and speed things up and try out several sets of tactics? Should I get an achievment for each successful tactic I find? After all...."given the different tactics required it is sufficient of a separate achivement"

Ultimately, the achievement system isn't there to recognise the differences in tactics, even those caused by raid size. Its there to recognise the simple fact that a challenge was met and overcome. There's little to say that you can't recognise the format used...save for negatives such as encouraging Achievement hunters to go for both whether they like both formats or dealing with issues where one format, for whatever reason, engenders a greater prestige...but that doesn't make tactical differences worthy of a separate achievement. Go down that route and you justify potentially dozens of achievements for the same encounter.

EJL

[Gags]

Think people need to realise that there are reasons for both raid sizes that can make each easier in some way. For example 10m, some fights can be trivialised by the extra amount of room you have to play with, void zones on the ground etc. Where as 25m typically has it easier in the sense that if you're down one person of your regular group or have 1 awesome guy who just isn't that good at the game in your team, can be carried a lot easier. They both have ways were it makes it easier. I personally am a raid leader for a non hardcore but heroic clearing guild and we currently have 2 separate 10m teams. We have now decided since this little incentive that we'll trial 25's.

Now I understand that most guilds solely running one 10m team will probably look at the incentive and go meh, but for us we thought why not. And I know of a few guilds one my server alone that have multiple 10m teams who might think about doing the same thing.

[Deleted]

Think people need to realise that there are reasons for both raid sizes that can make each easier in some way. For example 10m, some fights can be trivialised by the extra amount of room you have to play with, void zones on the ground etc. Where as 25m typically has it easier in the sense that if you're down one person of your regular group or have 1 awesome guy who just isn't that good at the game in your team, can be carried a lot easier. They both have ways were it makes it easier. I personally am a raid leader for a non hardcore but heroic clearing guild and we currently have 2 separate 10m teams. We have now decided since this little incentive that we'll trial 25's.

Yes, you can come up with all kinds of things are appear easier or more difficult in different modes. However, when you sum it all up, at the end of the day you end up with 25 man raiding requiring more effort and skill to a point where it's impossible to justify doing it for the same rewards as 10 mans. I guarantee you will find this out yourself when you try to go from 2x10 to 25, because that has been tried many times by many people and the result is almost always a failure when the players realize they do not have the skills to even come close to matching their 10 man progress in 25 mans.

[cidic]

25 HM Raider here.

I do agree with you. Incentivising gear isn't the path that will solve this problem. Not enough incentive, and things will stay the way they are. Too much incentive and there will be this huge swing from 10 to 25s because of the mentality of "quickest to gear" or fast tracking to BiS.

I do 25 man content not for gear, as you have noted. I personally do it because it is a unique form of raiding. The idea of "prestige" that you mention I can totally get behind. I enjoy being able to cooperate with a large group of people to overcome challenges.

I would like to see a separation of 10 and 25 man with some other form of reward. I agree with some of your suggestions OP, but some I feel would require too much Dev time, such as the unique gear. The separation of achievements to be 10 and 25 would be an excellent start imo.

When it comes to recruiting, I personally feel that the barrier preventing a number of players from changing servers and factions to raid is the cost. Our 25 man is CONSTANTLY recruiting. One of the most common barriers with attracting players is the cost of faction / server changing. With the prolific love for alts, that is another reason people are unwilling to transfer. Personally when I transferred to my current guild, it was difficult for me to keep up. With the profession requirements of a HM Progression Guild, I didn't have the professions to farm for food / flasks / pots etc. I had to wait a couple weeks before I could transfer my bank toon as well as my dedicated farmer. This meant that I was investing myself in this guild. Luckily for me it has paid off and we are doing well in current content. Some players are afraid to make the investment when transferring servers / factions. Offsetting this could also help the 25 man scene.

Sorry if this seems unorganized ans scatterbrained. This are just a few of my thoughts while I have a couple minutes.

Also, to the guy with the great computer who can't run 25s. I play on a pretty basic laptop and I can gt 30+ fps in effect heavy 25s. You need to do some work.

Most of the issues with 25 man on Horde side is the server we are on Gantzie. I'm not going to pull any punches Alliance pretty much own Proudmoore a better portion of the time I'm sure we can both agree on that. The other issue honestly is the lack of people wanting to raid or just be "casual" and not care about what they are doing they just want to do whatever add to that dailies when people think they are "forced" into doing them makes a lot of people I know not want to log on anymore even from within SM.

OP is right some of those changes could actually work yet sadly I don't see Blizzard even listening to them. There are far few less people that raid 25 man now then there was even 2 years ago at times vs people who went or moved down to 10 man that will for the most part either not voice their opinion or Blizzard will look at it like these changes are to much and would kill 10 man.

[Gags]

Yes, you can come up with all kinds of things are appear easier or more difficult in different modes. However, when you sum it all up, at the end of the day you end up with 25 man raiding requiring more effort and skill to a point where it's impossible to justify doing it for the same rewards as 10 mans. I guarantee you will find this out yourself when you try to go from 2x10 to 25, because that has been tried many times by many people and the result is almost always a failure when the players realize they do not have the skills to even come close to matching their 10 man progress in 25 mans.

I've raided 25m's in the past, this isn't something entirely new to me. I don't think that skill is the right word to choose, co-ordination maybe a better word. But as a lot of people have mentioned it mainly comes down to proper management of the team, if you have a crappy raid lead who can't handle it the whole group will fall down. Proper planning, sharing of the work load that comes with 25mans is key. As for inside the raid I can't see how 25mans requires more skill on the player level, when there is less room for mistakes on 10m, purely at the player level I'm speaking. One person sucking in 10m is a whole lot more noticeable than one person sucking in a 25m. More co-ordination and good management and raid leading is vital on 25m, where in 10m typically is easier to handle. But in no way individual players in a 25m vs 10m are more skillful.

[Ferocity]

I know people will despise this comment immensely, but make them actually different content - as in complete raids. But on the same tier, not 10<25s.

Unique rewards for 10s, unique rewards for 25s. 2 10 mans gang up to do 25s, 25s can split and do 2 10s. Some fights/stories make more sense on 10 or 25 either.... like Lich king? Idk feels more right on 10 man.... death wing - now thats gotta be a 25.....

Just might help people be more social, 10 man guilds joining forces, 25 mans pulling in pugs to make 3 10s... /shrug. Hate away...

No. It didn't really worked well, and was one of huge problems with introduction of Cata raid system.

How many tanks do you need in 25-men and how many - in 10? What about healers' ratio? You can't just split up/join up without many people being left in grief. And speaking it as one, who raided both 10-men and 25-men back in WotLK, our 10-men team always had so much dislike from 25-men people, who couldn't fit our team but wanted to raid both 10 and 25, simply because even if you try to divide 25/10 it will be 2.5. 5 people for sure will be left aside.

What is social in: "Hey we need 2 tanks in 25-men, in 10-men we also need 2 tanks, sry guys - pug your tanks (lol) elsewhere"? Or: "Hey we don't need 4/6 tanks in 25-men, 2/4 of you can pug it (lol)".

It is also one of the reasons why current situation is better not be touched. Splitting/joining isn't really as easy as it looks on paper. We already saw it on example with shared lockouts.

Raids should have one and only format, which is currently 10-men (don't take my words as offensive to 25-men, my respect to those who still run them). Ping-ponging "real" raid format will just piss off player-base to no end. 25-men is like dying horse, let it die peacefully.

And also why 15-men won't work. Some 10-men have strict rosters with 1-2 benches. Recruitment, tbh, is quite hard even for 10-men lately. Even with benches (who are not always up, that's why they are benches), 12 people = no 15-men raid happening till you managed to recruit before some of your people left for those hot last places in other guilds (and if it will happen to be tank or healer, guild has high chance to dissolve), while other people would just had to quit or join other guilds, which would just mean - less raiding guilds and even less raiding happening. For 25-men it would mean that 10 people will have to go. And not everyone likes to really start from scratch in other guild, most of those 10 "leftovers" would just quit raiding/WoW altogether. And you could observe all that on example of Cata raid changes.

[Sylreick]

There should not be any exclusive incentive to play 25s, either people want to play 25s or they don't. Getting more chances at loot should be incentive enough, the fact that it isn't means not many people care to do 25s.

If there are that many people that want to raid 25s, why not make a thread and gather them together to go and do it? Or make a low level alt (on the prospective server) and talk to people, see if any people are interested in doing them.

I'd rather 10 and 25 stay relatively equal, so that people can choose what they want and roll with it. Sadly enough for some, not many people care to do 25s... if they cared enough, they would do something about it.

[MoanaLisa]

I'm quite fine with two formats for raiding, one more popular than the other, and find it surpassingly strange that so many people want to destroy both in search of some untried 15- or 20- man format. Give some serious thought to the ramifications on old content for doing this and how much work would have to go into it to make it work for every single tier previous to when it's implemented and you might start to understand why, given where we are, Blizzard is more interested in doing something to make the current system work than scrapping it entirely and starting over with something completely different. The idea of junking 10-/25- raid formats entirely when there's still things to try is silly and likely will enrage many, many more people than it pleases. It would create serious personnel problems for nearly every single raiding guild in the game.

Inherent in all of this is a simple question: why does it matter that there are a lot of 10-person guilds as long as there are enough 25-person guilds around to keep the format viable? And what's wrong with propping up 25-man raid formats a little to make them a bit more so? The notion that 25's must achieve some sort of parity with 10's to be "fixed" is mind-boggling.

[Granyala]

The notion that 25's must achieve some sort of parity with 10's to be "fixed" is mind-boggling.

There doesn't need to be parity. That's an unrealistic expectation.

But the current collapse of 25man raiding guilds need to be halted, or come next X-Pac 25man will not be viable any longer. (Except a few top guilds)

Greg himself said that the Thunderforged thing is a controversal approach. It's a test. I doubt it'll make a big difference, but it's very hard to judge w/o knowledge of the drop chances. However it is very possible that the entire concept gets scrapped again for 5.4.

BTW: Bashiok stated that it is within the realm of possibilities that a 10m guild can acquire more TF items than a 25man guild. To me that sounds like the difference in dropchance between the two formats will be minimal at best.

[This name sucks]

I have a core I5, 8 gigs ram, 660 ti video card, 2x ssd hard drives. With that said. I still wont raid 25 man lag fests. Its bad enough doing Sha with 10 fps. In 10 mans, i hover around 30. Thats sad. And I can only imagine other peoples computers having to deal with 25 man and world bosses.

25 man raiding is dead and will stay dead. Hmm lets see. Do I want to depend on 15 other people, make things more difficult for the same rewards. Or do it with 10 people where I wont lag as heavily, have less stress and easier management including pugging. Yeah, Ill stick with 10 man raiding forever lol.

Intel i5 2400 - 8gb ddr3 1600 Gskill Ripjaw memory - evga 660 TI 3GB - 2x OCZ Vertex 3 SSD 120 gb drives - Asrock H77 Motherboard - 730 Watt PSU - 46" LCD HDTV - Updated 11-27-12


And this surprises you?

[Novx]

Such as (some of which have/are already present):

- Exclusive mounts. *Not* reskins! Completely unique models designed specifically for this purpose.
- Exclusive Tabards.
- Exclusive Titles.
- Exclusive armor/weapon models. It can have the exact same ilvl and stats, but if it makes you look amazingly cool, it's highly desirable. Again, NOT recolor/reskins! Completely unique models.
- Exclusive transmog gear. Same as above.
- Exclusive companion pets.
- Exclusive heirloom pieces. This may be cried about as "game breaking" for low level BGers who do not 25 man raid, but it's just an example.
- Anything that reduces the load of managing a 25man roster, such as flasks, foods, group teleporters, etc.
- And on and on.

The outrage if blizzard started giving exclusive titles, pets, xmog, tabards, mounts, etc, would be 100x what it is now when it comes to this "extra chance at gear".

[Deleted]

as a 25man raider I'm not excited about loot difference to 10mans at all. It's just more headache with loot.

What would be nice is indeed, different titles / mounts (even reskins, add some lightning!). Throw us some vanity items. Give people a reason to want to raid 25 but nothing power related so 10mans feel forced to raid 25.

EDIT: i'm not saying give us a mount and not 10man, or a title. I just mean a 'different' one, something to distinguish the 2. Bane of the Fallen King / Light of Dawn as a good example. Or ruby cloud serpent / thundering ruby cloudserpent if they were 10/25

Right now that could be considered giving prestige to 25man. However if everybody saw it that way and raided 25man then the 10man version would seem prestigious. Overall it would help maintain balance nicely (imo)

[Mormolyce]

What would be nice is indeed, different titles / mounts (even reskins, add some lightning!). Throw us some vanity items. Give people a reason to want to raid 25 but nothing power related so 10mans feel forced to raid 25.

Personally I think titles, mounts and other vanity stuff would be more of a problem than gear in forcing people to raid 25 when they just want to raid 10.

[Deleted]

Intel i5 2400 - 8gb ddr3 1600 Gskill Ripjaw memory - evga 660 TI 3GB - 2x OCZ Vertex 3 SSD 120 gb drives - Asrock H77 Motherboard - 730 Watt PSU - 46" LCD HDTV - Updated 11-27-12


And this surprises you?

You are saying that as if you agree with him that his PC cant run 25 man raids. That is absolute bullshit, yes his PC cant run on max with 50 addons but if he puts it on medium settings it will run every fight in the game on 60 fps (maybe elegon being the only exception).