Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[Deleted]

25mans are actually easier, less effect if one person fucks up.

[Goldfingaz]

I have a core I5, 8 gigs ram, 660 ti video card, 2x ssd hard drives. With that said. I still wont raid 25 man lag fests. Its bad enough doing Sha with 10 fps. In 10 mans, i hover around 30. Thats sad. And I can only imagine other peoples computers having to deal with 25 man and world bosses.

25 man raiding is dead and will stay dead. Hmm lets see. Do I want to depend on 15 other people, make things more difficult for the same rewards. Or do it with 10 people where I wont lag as heavily, have less stress and easier management including pugging. Yeah, Ill stick with 10 man raiding forever lol.

I'm running an i5-3570k @3.4GHz, 12GB RAM, GTX 550 Ti, a Hard Drive that's roughly 7 years old and I run 25mans at 57fps, 10mans at 57 fps and I idle at 57 fps. Why? Two reasons: I don't need ultra graphics, shit is shiny enough as it is, and I cap my FPS at 57-60 fps in order to reduce unnecessary work on my graphics card.

Oh I also run dual monitors so I can watch por...programs on the other monitor. (Both at 1920 x 1080)

It's not the 25 mans causing your lag.

[Lumineus]

I have a GTX460 and I never have graphics lag on Ultra. My suggestion is to cull your addons. I know there was an old version of Recount that would torpedo your FPS in large raids, there are probably others as well.

[Tekkommo]

I have a core I5, 8 gigs ram, 660 ti video card, 2x ssd hard drives. With that said. I still wont raid 25 man lag fests. Its bad enough doing Sha with 10 fps. In 10 mans, i hover around 30. Thats sad. And I can only imagine other peoples computers having to deal with 25 man and world bosses.

25 man raiding is dead and will stay dead. Hmm lets see. Do I want to depend on 15 other people, make things more difficult for the same rewards. Or do it with 10 people where I wont lag as heavily, have less stress and easier management including pugging. Yeah, Ill stick with 10 man raiding forever lol.

While my main PC is very good and has no issues at all in 25 man.

I also have a very old PC, which is crap and even has windows XP. However, my friend has used it for 25 man raids and it runs them perfectly. WoW runs just fine on crap PCs. Something else is making your experience bad.

It even sounds like you lag in 10 mans...

[Valkryx]

The only solution is to stop trying to provide two sizes to the same content. Either standardize on one size, whatever that size is, or provide completely different sets of content for 10 and 25 mans (different instance, rewards, bosses, lore, etc.).

LAWL! thats still trying to force players to a format they dont like, want to see this content need 25 people oh next raid you have to boot 15 of those people if you want to see this content, yea 10 of them can make up their own group but 5 people are completely left out, oh next raid is 25 agian replace those 5 people who gquit when they got left out... oh yea that system would work perfectly... and heads up if they do decide to just "standardize" they would cut the minority out meaning the 25mans and go with 10mans to reduce the amount of crying/bitching.

[Blur4stuff]

25 man raids (or larger) as they currently exist are already written off. whatever blizzard's next mmo title is certainly won't have them. there might be simple stuff like sha or lfr, but having to actually organize a large group of people on a regular basis is gone. if blizzard could remove 25 man raiding in WoW without a lot of trouble they already would have. if you like raiding with large guild groups then enjoy it while you can. your days are numbered.

[Deleted]

I would be happy if they would bring back 40 man raids, 40 man is just epic.

[Ealyssa]

So 25 died because of 10 having same loot, but 25 is not about having better loot ? Do not compute.

If people switched to the "easier" format when the loot were shared it is obviously because all they wanted were loot. And while actual 25 rider are clearly people in search of challenge, they are NOT the people who will save 25 (since 25 is allready dieing, understand ?). To save 25 you only need ONE THING, and that's players. And the only players you can find for 25 that aren't doing it allready are the one who left when same ilvl were shared (since old ICC 10m player allready only played 10 while having lower gear, thunderforged probably won't be enough for them).

So IMO yes, Blizzard has made the only thing that may save 25 : give them better gear. The only fear I have is about the droprate : It really should drop WAY MORE in 25 than 10 or it's pointless. (imo it shouldn't even drop in 10, but I understand the logic)

[Deleted]

wotlk raiding system was perfect, it's that simple.

including separate lockouts and heroic mode pre-totc.

but the game has changed, the players have changed and have been changed. Everything has to cater to a different audience now, unfortunately.

[Valkryx]

So 25 died because of 10 having same loot, but 25 is not about having better loot ? Do not compute.

If people switched to the "easier" format when the loot were shared it is obviously because all they wanted were loot. And while actual 25 rider are clearly people in search of challenge, they are NOT the people who will save 25 (since 25 is allready dieing, understand ?). To save 25 you only need ONE THING, and that's players. And the only players you can find for 25 that aren't doing it allready are the one who left when same ilvl were shared (since old ICC 10m player allready only played 10 while having lower gear, thunderforged probably won't be enough for them).

So IMO yes, Blizzard has made the only thing that may save 25 : give them better gear. The only fear I have is about the droprate : It really should drop WAY MORE in 25 than 10 or it's pointless. (imo it shouldn't even drop in 10, but I understand the logic)

wotlk raiding system was perfect, it's that simple.

including separate lockouts and heroic mode pre-totc.

but the game has changed, the players have changed and have been changed. Everything has to cater to a different audience now, unfortunately.

1st if all the players changed just to do the easiest format they would have all changed to 25mans, 25 is easier on the majority of players due to less personal impact on encounters, 25mans are only harder than 10mans on the leaders.

2nd system in wrath was no wheres close to perfect it was heavily flawed, numerous times it has been explained in this thread so im not gonna repeat it all over agian but basically it was the major 25man guilds in wrath that complained of the being forced to run both 10 and 25 mans every week, being forced to 25man due to loot and easier encounters that lead to blizzards decision to make 10 mans share lockout and loot.

3rd 25man getting better loot would just force everyone back to 25mans, i say forced because players who focus on nothing but progressing their character will just go to where ever there is better gear. 25man already gets more draps than 10mans and now they get a higher chance at the new thunderforged gear, they dont need any more incentive than that, if people actually want to run 25mans they would/will be running 25mans, quit with the trying to force people into it.

[jax]

Heres my question...

What killed 25 man raiding?

The common answer is the shared lock out and same Ilevel they instituted

So if, and I stress IF Blizz actually wants to bring the 25 man raids back from the abyss what would be the way to do it?

Drop the shared lockout and give 25s higher loot ilevel...

Its not rocket science, if you do something and its killing you... you stop doing it. You stop doing by changing back what you changed to begin with.
If I am healthy and start smoking, then develop pre cancer cells... hmmmm let me see what should I do??? Should I eat more fiber? Should I stop eating donuts? Maybe I should stop drinking beer....

Nope, Ive got it! I should go back to what made me healthy to begin with!!! Stop smoking.

(In case some are lost on the metaphor... you return the seperate lock outs and you increase ilevel for 25 = stop smoking)

Logic is hard...

2nd system in wrath was no wheres close to perfect it was heavily flawed, numerous times it has been explained in this thread so im not gonna repeat it all over agian but basically it was the major 25man guilds in wrath that complained of the being forced to run both 10 and 25 mans every week, being forced to 25man due to loot and easier encounters that lead to blizzards decision to make 10 mans share lockout and loot.

Its this kind of insanity that keeps the problem unresolved...
In case you havent heard theres this thing called lfr... and the top guilds ran it just as they ran 10 mans for gear and to get extra slot filled to improve performance... it is REQUIRED that you do this in the top guilds.

Where is the difference? You are forced to run lfr just like you had to run 10 mans. Now you may argue that there is a difference... but theres not. Top guilds ran 10 man ICC etc in 2 hours for that extra gear to give them a edge... How long does running lfr take?

In fact I recall a small little situation that got the majority of all top end guilds a week or 2 ban from the game because of exploiting the loot drops in LFR... you know that LFR that they were not "forced" to run like 10 mans... there by leading to burn out...

Your a few cards short of a full deck it seems

I was in a world top 100 guild back in ICC, 10 mans were a fun fast way to fill in loot... not a horror story that we complained to the Gods that we "had" to run every week.

This just in... news flash, film at 11pm... everything that Blizz tells you about why they change things isnt always true.

Whats more likely?
.001% of the wow universe "forced" them to implement a change?

rofl

[Valkryx]

Heres my question...

What killed 25 man raiding?

The common answer is the shared lock out and same Ilevel they instituted

So if, and I stress IF Blizz actually wants to bring the 25 man raids back from the abyss what would be the way to do it?

Drop the shared lockout and give 25s higher loot ilevel...

Its not rocket science, if you do something and its killing you... you stop doing it. You stop doing by changing back what you changed to begin with.
If I am healthy and start smoking, then develop pre cancer cells... hmmmm let me see what should I do??? Should I eat more fiber? Should I stop eating donuts? Maybe I should stop drinking beer....

Nope, Ive got it! I should go back to what made me healthy to begin with!!! Stop smoking.

(In case some are lost on the metaphor... you return the seperate lock outs and you increase ilevel for 25 = stop smoking)

Logic is hard...

apparently so is reading... that system was killing wow, it caused players to burn out on the game a hell lot faster, take off those nostalgic shades, they are not gonna go back to that fail system. i'll answer your question, what killed 25man raiding?, the fact that the majority don't care for 25man or they would be doing it.

[jax]

that system was killing wow,

It was? Wow... last I checked during that time there were 12million subs... highest ever of all time... damn killing must have a different meaning in your world than it does in the rest...

i'll answer your question, what killed 25man raiding?, the fact that the majority don't care for 25man or they would be doing it.

Like you said... thats your answer... its not THE answer. But feel free to post your opinions as fact, they are entertaining if nothing else.

it caused players to burn out on the game a hell lot faster, take off those nostalgic shades,

It did? Wow... I am so glad that there isnt a raid that you have to do now to supplement your gear to help your ability to kill bosses... man if there were people would be just, up in arms and screaming about it cause it would be killing WoW all over again... Hell it would probally cause this massive burn out like 10 mans did... oh wait

LFR says hi

You cant fix stupid...

[Smigel]

My suggestion: bring back 10/25 man titles. It's simpler than designing a mount or an armor set, and you get to show it off whenever you want. Most people can admire it when the see it as something they probably won't achieve. And people that get it can take pleasure in having something that most others don't. It's an easy way to show off that you've completed 25 man content.

[Valkryx]

You cant fix stupid...

LAWL! irony... anyways, yes it had the highest subs at the time but that's also when they started decreasing, and im guessing with your comment bout lfr that you are one of the players still needing it? cause if your actually doing some actual raiding lfrs loot is a joke and unneeded, back than you were forced to run both 10 and 25 every week to stay competitive. now you can argue running lfr for VP but lets face it there are many other dif ways to cap ur VP. i would like to link you there original explanation to the lock outs and all sorts of the complaints about burn out from running both everweek but its a lil hard to do when they reset forums with cata. obviously you apparently either didnt play back than or didnt pay as much attention to forums back then. either way that system aint coming back and that's for the best.

[Deleted]

My suggestion: bring back 10/25 man titles.

That won't happen, because the whole point of 10 mans is to allow an easier path to the same rewards as 25 mans. If the titles were different, 10 man raiders could no longer pretend that what they do is the same as 25 man raiders, and there would be no end to the crying and whining.

[jax]

anyways yea go back and read the posts, yes it had the highest subs at the time but thats also when they started decreasing,

Um... no, and before you open that weenie washer of yours perhaps you should do a simple google search for info and not blame something that had no effect on the subs as some great horrible thing only because you dont like it...

For the record:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwAw&dur=486

Nov. 2008 WotLK released: 12 mill
June 6 2009 Wow shuts China servers down, looses 5.5mill subs in world and eastern market

This is the key... they lost the same amount world wide as in the east... it was the shut down of servers that caused the subs to drop... not some imaginary hatred of shared lock outs...
I mean your theory is fine till the facts are presented... as with all liars, you cant keep up the BS when people of intellegence are around... good try tho!

August 2009 back up to 11.5mill as China switches to Tiwane servers
Jan 2010 still 11.5 mill
Oct 2010 still 11.5 mill

*You see the above? A full year of Wrath and split lock outs and differing Ilevels for 25 and 10s and... well my goodness... no drop in subs! Dang it... and here I thought there was this huge decline because of shared lock outs.... /herp derp

Dec 7 Cata released 12mill
March 2011 drops to 11.2 mill
June drops to 11 mill
Sept drops to 10.5 mill
Oct Blizzcon and annonce of year sub and free Diablo to stem the bleeding of subs
Dec 10 mill

*Hrmm shared lockouts and same ilevel for Cata... and OMG! we see the bleeding off of subs! Now I dont think it was that... I think Cata was just a pathetic Expac and people went elsewhere to play... but I think we pretty much proved there was no "started decreasing due to seperate lock outs" crap during wrath...

Now where is the decline you so ignorantly speak of? It is AFTER Cata release... you know when they stopped the dual lock outs and different Ilevels...

and im guessing with your comment bout lfr that you are one of the players still needing it?

No from my comment I am telling you what was happening in high end guilds... Its not open to debate:
http://manaflask.com/en/article/1415...ue-update/p/7/

It sure seems that lfr loot was a joke... Does your brain actually work or do you just repeat the crap you hear in general chat in the Barrens and post it here?

cause if your actually doing some actual raiding lfrs loot is a joke and unneeded,

Sure looked like it was needed enough to run...hell they ran it multiple times and came up with a way to exploit it so severely that they all got banned...
Sure seems that "lfr loot is a joke" comment got slapped in your face...
Oh and we ran it at the start of MoP too!

Hrmm lets see... Ya getting a Sha touched weapon with 500 to main stat gem and it being a 3k-5k increase over what you have isnt something a top end raid guild would do... ROFL!!
Can you say min/max?

i would like to link you there original explaination to the lock outs and all sorts of the complaints about burn out from running both everweek but its a lil hard to do when they reset forums with cata.

The problem is that I unlike you, do not believe that Blizz tells you the real reason they do things...
I take into account that they have lfr now and its required by top end guilds to supplement your gear till you get better with raids... just like 10 mans were back in the day.
That is not open to debate, its a truth and a truth that got mushed all in your face with the fact that these guilds got banned for exploiting what you consider "worthless loot"

either way that system aint coming back and thats for the best.

I agree it wont come back, but its your personal opinion that its for the best, it is not everyones opinion.

Sorry if the tone of this is condescending but come on bro... your really that blinded by your hate of 25s that you would come here and post falsehoods when they are so easily countered by proof of bans for top guilds exploiting LFR? Really?
/sigh

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

That won't happen, because the whole point of 10 mans is to allow an easier path to the same rewards as 25 mans. If the titles were different, 10 man raiders could no longer pretend that what they do is the same as 25 man raiders, and there would be no end to the crying and whining.

Make the 25 man and 10 man titles exclusive to each other then. 10m raiders would get a unique title. 25m raiders would get a unique title.

[jax]

Make the 25 man and 10 man titles exclusive to each other then. 10m raiders would get a unique title. 25m raiders would get a unique title.

I think his point is that just wont work, as 25 man raiders feel that 25s is the only "real raid" going and 10 man raiders think that 10 man is exactly the same and they should get the same "prestige" of a 25 man raider.

Blizz has made a mess of things and in an effort to revert somewhat back to the old system and all they have done is kicked off a shit storm...

You cant put the milk back in the cow...
Its clear they made a mistake, its clear they are trying to revert it, and its clear that its too late.

[Sansnom]

Yeah, you're wrong

Just as a starter, with all that extra loot, PLENTY of it gets DE'd because theres no one to use it. After you've killed a boss 5+ the common drops he has will have been given to everyone and thier offspecs. Doesn't mean the weapons or trinkets or less common drops aren't being sought after.

And what make you think this does not happen in 10m? In 25m, you are more likely to have each class covered, probably more than once. In 10m, duplicate classes is rare.

So if the same item drops a second time, it is less likely to be DE in 25m than in 10m. If you have killed the boss 5+ times, then it is on farm status. But at the start of a new raid tier, items are less likely to be DE in 25m than in 10m. So gearing up in 25m is faster.