Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[Deleted]

If you exclude LFR then you have less people raiding now than in Wrath so current system actually caused decrease in raiding. How do you explain that?

LFR is raiding.

Yes 10 mans gives them easier path to rewards but that doesn't mean they like it, in most cases they have no other choice if they want to raid. It's 10 man or nothing. Look at this http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...urrently-in%29
1/3 of the current 10 man raiders would like to raid 25 man if they could.

A poll on MMO champ is worthless.

[Deleted]

LFR is raiding.


A poll on MMO champ is worthless.

EVerytime im Doing Lfr im putting on follow someone. Put Fifa on Ps3 and enjoy Raiding . Or taking a snap for like an Hour.
Taking out my dog.
Going on the club getting drunken.
Last week i went for a bath for like 20 min(Msv p1). The grp was good already Killed the 1st 2 boss and we were on 3rd one when i came back 2 see the conten...progres...i mean Raiding.... I mean i never enjoyed so much raiding but still complaining of water beeing 2 hot.

Anyway i dont know if People Like you ,Talen , or 2 more ...are getting payed 2 ...Clown.

Here something nice

Tier 10 most kills and most 25 kills, meaning more raiding slots even.
Tier 11 less kills than tier 10 by far.
Tier 12 less kills than thier 11
Tier 13 less kills than tier 12 by a bit, but with easier and more nerfed content
Tier 14 less kills than tier 13.

So what are we gonna see in Tier 15 and 16?

Hey Server looking for guild since no one killed 1st boss on Normal.

I mean with the route that are already taken .--- Realm 1st ...1st boss Normal mode...after 6 months 1st Realm 1st ...2nd boss...===normal mode.

I dont want be rude but people like you dont give a f ..about the game.
You simply care about beeing selfish,....

Playing the stupid role that for a mature guy it's !@!#$..

Even if there gonna be 10 guild within whole game again youre gonna act like this. Crap ..somehow is human nature ..but sadlly some people didn't evolve enough. Or simply didn't meet people outside basement<!

And yes i raid as a 10-man an i f..hated.

[jax]

LFR is raiding.

Its called raiding by Blizz so the sheep pretend its raiding so they can say they are raiders... pretty simple.
There is nothing except 25 people in the same zone that even remotely resembles raiding.

EVerytime im Doing Lfr im putting on follow someone. Put Fifa on Ps3 and enjoy Raiding . Or taking a snap for like an Hour.
Taking out my dog.
Going on the club getting drunken.
Last week i went for a bath for like 20 min(Msv p1). The grp was good already Killed the 1st 2 boss and we were on 3rd one when i came back 2 see the conten...progres...i mean Raiding.... I mean i never enjoyed so much raiding but still complaining of water beeing 2 hot.

Classic! I spit Sprite out of my nose reading this because it so much resembles many peoples "raiding" experience in LFLOL.

[Deceitx]

I loved 40mans, 25mans arent a challenge great enough

my two cents..

[Deleted]

Its called raiding by Blizz so the sheep pretend its raiding so they can say they are raiders... pretty simple.
There is nothing except 25 people in the same zone that even remotely resembles raiding.

It's raiding.

Raiding at the molten core level, but still raiding. Get over it.

Classic! I spit Sprite out of my nose reading this because it so much resembles many peoples "raiding" experience in LFLOL.

See? LFR is just like molten core. LFR also disproves the ntion that 25 mn raiding is inherently hard in game - how hard 25 man is entirely up to blizzards tuning department.

[Radalek]

LFR is raiding.


A poll on MMO champ is worthless.

You can argue about LFR being raiding or not, I will leave that to you. How can you even compare Wrath raiding scene without LFR with current one? That's absolutely ridiculous...unreal.
The fact is if you take out LFR raiding population is much smaller today than it was in Wrath and you can't go around it no matter how much you're trying. Current system made that happen. Blizzard noticed the trend and they are not stupid, they don't want to keep losing subscribers and thus we will get some changes incoming whether you like it or not. As for MMO champ polls being worthless...results are in line what Blizzard sees as well, they stated it already. Same thing with raiding population, you can dislike the result but it's again something you can't go around.
Facts are facts, since the current system was implemented raiding scene shrunked by more than 30%. If you tell me that multibillion gaming company won't look to change that trend you're sorely wrong.

[MoanaLisa]

People can define raiding however they please and make grand statements about it as if it matters. They can include or exclude stuff to their heart's content and again, it doesn't matter.

The only definition that matters is Blizzard's. Blizzard considers LFR raiding. I don't seriously understand why people angrily denounce LFR as something other than raiding at this point. It really is something that everyone should get past.

No one will ever convince Blizzard that LFR isn't raiding just by saying so on some forum. It's all rather silly and quite beside the point. It's quite clear that as far as Blizzard is concerned, 10 or more players in some specific environment is a raid, no matter the difficulty. To pretend otherwise is to engage in a rather curious and foolish denial of reality.

[Ragedaug]

I like how a lot of people go, "DON'T FORCE US 10-MAN RAIDERS TO DO 25s!" while completely forgetting that the same applies to us 25man raiders.

Do not force us to raid 10-mans.

Here's the short of it. The only "thing" stopping you from running 25 mans, or as you say, forcing you to do 10 mans, is the lack of finding 24 other players who want to do 25 mans. If there were a lot of players who actually wanted to do 25 mans, they would. There's no in game limitation going from a 10 man group to a 25 man group, short of finding 15 more people.

So that said, now the only way for you to run 25 mans is to force players who do not want to run 25 man to play with you.

Start up a guild, advertise of various forums. List it in guild finder. Let everyone know you have a new 25 man raiding guild starting up. My guess is that even with the a 25 man raiding guild available, you won't get many bites. On the other hand, if this is such a terrible travesty in the game where tons of players want to run 25 mans but can't due to the lack of 25 man raiding guilds, you should see new members flock to your guild.

[Deleted]

The only definition that matters is Blizzard's. Blizzard considers LFR raiding.

Blizzard's definition of "raiding" doesn't matter one bit for this argument. It's a completely pointless discussion and an utter waste of time. What matters is this: The number of people engaging in the type of gameplay that used to be called "raiding" in vanilla, TBC, WotLK and early Cata has dropped. Another type of gameplay that only shares a few superficial traits with what used to be called "raiding", but is fundamentally different, has become popular and has affected the number of players engaged in what used to be called "raiding".

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 05:16 PM ----------

Here's the short of it. The only "thing" stopping you from running 25 mans, or as you say, forcing you to do 10 mans, is the lack of finding 24 other players who want to do 25 mans. If there were a lot of players who actually wanted to do 25 mans, they would. There's no in game limitation going from a 10 man group to a 25 man group, short of finding 15 more people.

So that said, now the only way for you to run 25 mans is to force players who do not want to run 25 man to play with you.

Start up a guild, advertise of various forums. List it in guild finder. Let everyone know you have a new 25 man raiding guild starting up. My guess is that even with the a 25 man raiding guild available, you won't get many bites. On the other hand, if this is such a terrible travesty in the game where tons of players want to run 25 mans but can't due to the lack of 25 man raiding guilds, you should see new members flock to your guild.

In WotLK people had the option to do 10 mans, yet they chose not to. The new raid model forced people out of 25 mans and into 10 mans. Anyway, your apparent complete ignorance of what it is to run and manage 25 man guilds in a broken raiding system like WoW's makes discussion pointless.

[Deleted]

Here's the short of it. The only "thing" stopping you from running 25 mans, or as you say, forcing you to do 10 mans, is the lack of finding 24 other players who want to do 25 mans. If there were a lot of players who actually wanted to do 25 mans, they would. There's no in game limitation going from a 10 man group to a 25 man group, short of finding 15 more people.

So that said, now the only way for you to run 25 mans is to force players who do not want to run 25 man to play with you.

Start up a guild, advertise of various forums. List it in guild finder. Let everyone know you have a new 25 man raiding guild starting up. My guess is that even with the a 25 man raiding guild available, you won't get many bites. On the other hand, if this is such a terrible travesty in the game where tons of players want to run 25 mans but can't due to the lack of 25 man raiding guilds, you should see new members flock to your guild.

This is something I suggested in previous 25m guild issue threads. If you really want to raid 25m you should team up on platforums like this one and find others who are also interested in 25m. Then once settled you can transfer together to a realm and form your 25m raiding guild. Sometimes you need to put a lot of effort into something you deeply from the bottom of your heart love.

[Ragedaug]

In WotLK people had the option to do 10 mans, yet they chose not to. The new raid model forced people out of 25 mans and into 10 mans. Anyway, your apparent complete ignorance of what it is to run and manage 25 man guilds in a broken raiding system like WoW's makes discussion pointless.

The "new" raid model is, both sizes offer the same reward. How is that forcing anyone? The Wrath model was "serious raiders raid 25 man and players that want to goof around with friends run 10 man".

There was no choice on which format to run in Wrath as a serious raider. There is in Cata & MoP. And when given a choice, it's quite easy to see what format the majority of players picked.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 05:34 PM ----------

This is something I suggested in previous 25m guild issue threads. If you really want to raid 25m you should team up on platforums like this one and find others who are also interested in 25m. Then once settled you can transfer together to a realm and form your 25m raiding guild. Sometimes you need to put a lot of effort into something you deeply from the bottom of your heart love.

Not to keep jumping on our 2 man bandwagon, but yeah, pretty much this. The problem as I see it, from my own experience, is that as a non-officer in a 25 man raiding guild I didn't have to do anything but show up 15 minutes prior to raid with my consumables. In every 10 man guild I've been in I've been expected to lead, recruit, help with loot, help with strats, help with mats and consumables for other players, plan on days & hours to raid, plan on when not to raid....etc, etc, etc.

While there are a few people in 25 mans who do a lot more work, the majority do much less then an average 10 man, and you always have that last 5-10 players who end up getting carried, where they would stand out as the sucky player in 10 mans. I believe, for the most part, it is the people who don't want to do much who are crying the loudest for the return of the 25 man raid as the forced content.

[Deleted]

This is something I suggested in previous 25m guild issue threads. If you really want to raid 25m you should team up on platforums like this one and find others who are also interested in 25m. Then once settled you can transfer together to a realm and form your 25m raiding guild. Sometimes you need to put a lot of effort into something you deeply from the bottom of your heart love.

Thanks for your tips. Just out of curiosity, how many years of 25 man guild leading experience do you have? Because on my realm the officers of all the raiding guilds had a couple of centuries of guild leading experience between us and put in a combined thousand hours per week into leading and thinking of solutions for keeping 25 man raiding alive. Unfortunately none of us were able to do it, but with these tips of yours we would've surely succeeded!

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 05:43 PM ----------

The "new" raid model is, both sizes offer the same reward.

Because one of the sizes requires far less effort to get those rewards, which necessarily obsoletes the other no matter how much people would prefer it.

[Deleted]

[/COLOR]

Because one of the sizes requires far less effort to get those rewards, which necessarily obsoletes the other no matter how much people would prefer it.

25 man takes a small amount of effort more than the several 10 mans is takes to replace it, it just seems a lot more because that effort winds up being concentrated in fewer peoples hands.

[Deleted]

25 man takes a small amount of effort more than the several 10 mans is takes to replace it, it just seems a lot more because that effort winds up being concentrated in fewer peoples hands.

What the hell is your point? To run one 25 man takes tons more effort than run one 10 man. That's all that matters.

[Deleted]

What the hell is your point? To run one 25 man takes tons more effort than run one 10 man. That's all that matters.

But the comparison should be between 3 ten man raids, not one.

if you have 100 raiders total, they can either do 4x25 mans or 10x10. Any argument which looks at organisational difficulty and rewarding it, has to look at it from that point of view or miss the wood for the trees.

If anything 10 man should get the better loot because you have a much better chance (1in 10, not 1 in 25) of rewarding the person making all the extra effort.

[Radalek]

People can define raiding however they please and make grand statements about it as if it matters. They can include or exclude stuff to their heart's content and again, it doesn't matter.

The only definition that matters is Blizzard's. Blizzard considers LFR raiding. I don't seriously understand why people angrily denounce LFR as something other than raiding at this point. It really is something that everyone should get past.

No one will ever convince Blizzard that LFR isn't raiding just by saying so on some forum. It's all rather silly and quite beside the point. It's quite clear that as far as Blizzard is concerned, 10 or more players in some specific environment is a raid, no matter the difficulty. To pretend otherwise is to engage in a rather curious and foolish denial of reality.

Are you seriously trying to say that raiding scene didn't shrunk by 30% or more since Wrath and trying to use LFR as an argument? LFR didn't exist back then. Current system is what caused it and there's no way around it.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 07:02 PM ----------

25 man takes a small amount of effort more than the several 10 mans is takes to replace it, it just seems a lot more because that effort winds up being concentrated in fewer peoples hands.

You still didn't reply to my question as well, you disagree that raiding scene is 30% smaller than in Wrath by using LFR as an argument to add numbers to todays raiding scene?

[Deleted]

You still didn't reply to my question as well, you disagree that raiding scene is 30% smaller than in Wrath by using LFR as an argument to add numbers to todays raiding scene?

No, LFR is raiding.

Lord Marrowgar 25 man level raiding, but raiding nonetheless.

[Angelsfist]

15 man raiding is my vote

[Radalek]

No, LFR is raiding.

Lord Marrowgar 25 man level raiding, but raiding nonetheless.

Why are you avoiding answering my question . You disagree that raiding scene is much smaller than it was in Wrath and you're using LFR numbers to support that while failing to acknowledge that LFR didn't exist back then?

[Deleted]

Why are you avoiding answering my question . You disagree that raiding scene is much smaller than it was in Wrath and you're using LFR numbers to support that while failing to acknowledge that LFR didn't exist back then?

No, I'm roundly rejecting your idea that LFR isn't raiding.

The raiding scene is larger than in wrath - because LFR is raiding. It replaces the pugs that were a feature of Wotlk.

Tell you what, I remove LFR and you remove pugs.