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  1. #1061
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The usual argument by advocates for 25s reads "Noone likes 10s, they just do it because its easy".
    No - that is not the argument by 25s advocates.

    NOBODY ever wrote the above line of "nobody likes 10s..." that's just your mind attempting to re-write the logic into something insulting.

    25s advocates simply say "They just do it because it's easier" - and they're right. They NEVER said they don't enjoy it. In fact, I'm sure the majority of people who do play 10s do enjoy it simply BECAUSE it's easier both to manage and to execute the fights themselves. :P

  2. #1062
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    No - that is not the argument by 25s advocates.

    NOBODY ever wrote the above line of "nobody likes 10s..." that's just your mind attempting to re-write the logic into something insulting.

    25s advocates simply say "They just do it because it's easier" - and they're right. They NEVER said they don't enjoy it. In fact, I'm sure the majority of people who do play 10s do enjoy it simply BECAUSE it's easier both to manage and to execute the fights themselves. :P
    I've thought of a great way to get 25 man raids going. People who want 25 man raids to happen (but are too lazy to organise them) can pay G to other players to entice them to raid lead 25's.

    No need to alter the game, the players can do it themselves.

  3. #1063
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    No, its not true. You simply stting it is true does not make it so. You believe it to be true. It's snappy and quick to ream off, but what it misses is every single other reason why players choose 10s. And there are a lot of them. 10s simply require less logistic effort from players. There is less of a recruiting issue. There are less problems with scheduling. Noshows are relatively easy to compensate for. And so on. And if you were speaking of that effort - I'd agree with you. Less effort to find a raid, less effort to join, less time spent recruiting.
    That one aspect, the other aspect is the higher personal skill and performance requirement in 25s. This is why you see guilds shoot up in progress when they go from 25 to 10 with the same skill distribution in their group. It's just easier and faster to clear 10 mans for a whole variety of reasons.

    People were dragged into 25s for the same reason 25s aren't popular now. Gear. With gear, everyone and their dog flocked to the format.W ithout out, forecd to stand on its merits without any incentive for players to join in? Players ran from it in droves.
    You have not explained why now people go to 10 mans because they like 10 mans, and when people went to 25 mans they went because they were forced by gear. If I was to rejoin the game and wanted the gear as fast as possible, I would go to 10 mans because in the current system that's how you get the gear fastest and easiest. This is why your argument is not self-consistent.

  4. #1064
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    That one aspect, the other aspect is the higher personal skill and performance requirement in 25s.
    Once again, that's a tuning issue and has nothing whatsoever to do with the format being run.
    This is why you see guilds shoot up in progress when they go from 25 to 10 with the same skill distribution in their group. It's just easier and faster to clear 10 mans for a whole variety of reasons.
    If you take the fastest 25 100 metre runners in the world and then reduce them down to the fastest 10, their average speed goes up.

    You have not explained why now people go to 10 mans because they like 10 mans, and when people went to 25 mans they went because they were forced by gear. If I was to rejoin the game and wanted the gear as fast as possible, I would go to 10 mans because in the current system that's how you get the gear fastest and easiest. This is why your argument is not self-consistent.
    People raid because they want better gear. 10 mans let them get that gear without massive non game related hurdles.

    This is why 10 man is better than 25 for most players and why they prefer it.

  5. #1065
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Once again, that's a tuning issue and has nothing whatsoever to do with the format being run.
    It's not a tuning issue. It's a complexity issue. More people, more things going on, will lead to a more complex environment that requires more personal skill and performance. Tuning is largely irrelevant. You can tune 10 mans to take on average the same number of wipes to kill as an equivalently skilled 25 man group. But you could also do that for 5 mans or even solo content. Of course, Blizzard is not tuning raids that way, and instead what you see is that the equivalently skilled 10 man group will kill far more content far faster and with far fewer wipes -- when they're actually inside the raid instance.

    If you take the fastest 25 100 metre runners in the world and then reduce them down to the fastest 10, their average speed goes up.
    You think when scaling down you get to pick your best players? You can't. Not all your best players want to raid 10 mans, not all of them want to join your 10 man, not all of them want to continue playing and not all of them have the required class ready and geared. This is exactly what happened when my 25 man scaled down. We didn't get the 10 best players, we got a couple of the best, couple of the average and couple below the average. Yet our progress shot up, oneshotting the boss we were working on in 25 at the time, for example.

    People raid because they want better gear. 10 mans let them get that gear without massive non game related hurdles.
    It's all game related. It's all relevant. Otherwise they might as well give the same rewards for solo content since afterall you're still doing the same thing while soloing.

    This is why 10 man is better than 25 for most players and why they prefer it.
    It's not "better", it's just the easier and faster way to the same rewards. People don't like feeling like idiots so they won't take the harder path that requires more skill and performance in every aspect if it only grants the same rewards. That's what games are all about, figuring out the easiest path to the rewards. THAT is why 25 mans are dead. Due to the broken raid model.

  6. #1066
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    It's not a tuning issue. It's a complexity issue. More people, more things going on, will lead to a more complex environment that requires more personal skill and performance. Tuning is largely irrelevant. You can tune 10 mans to take on average the same number of wipes to kill as an equivalently skilled 25 man group. But you could also do that for 5 mans or even solo content. Of course, Blizzard is not tuning raids that way, and instead what you see is that the equivalently skilled 10 man group will kill far more content far faster and with far fewer wipes -- when they're actually inside the raid instance.
    If how difficult 25 man is isn't a tuning issue - how come LFR is a piece of piss, then, hmm?


    You think when scaling down you get to pick your best players? You can't. Not all your best players want to raid 10 mans, not all of them want to join your 10 man, not all of them want to continue playing and not all of them have the required class ready and geared. This is exactly what happened when my 25 man scaled down. We didn't get the 10 best players, we got a couple of the best, couple of the average and couple below the average. Yet our progress shot up, oneshotting the boss we were working on in 25 at the time, for example.
    Ok, fair enough, I seriously doubt your experience of not having the best 10 raiders is representative, however.


    It's all game related. It's all relevant. Otherwise they might as well give the same rewards for solo content since afterall you're still doing the same thing while soloing.
    They do!

    You can solo your way to raid equivalent gear.


    It's not "better", it's just the easier and faster way to the same rewards. People don't like feeling like idiots so they won't take the harder path that requires more skill and performance in every aspect if it only grants the same rewards. That's what games are all about, figuring out the easiest path to the rewards. THAT is why 25 mans are dead. Due to the broken raid model.
    If people want easier and faster then that IS better for them.

    25 mans are dead because they are a pain in the arse due to non game related issues. LFR is as busy as a dead dog on an anthill, because those issues aren't present.

    25 man with organisational issues - dying.
    25 man without organisational issues - most popular raid ever.

    See the difference?

  7. #1067
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkryx View Post
    apparently so is reading... that system was killing wow, it caused players to burn out on the game a hell lot faster, take off those nostalgic shades, they are not gonna go back to that fail system. i'll answer your question, what killed 25man raiding?, the fact that the majority don't care for 25man or they would be doing it.
    Last time I checked the peak of wow was in WotLK with 12+mil subscribers. After the changes made to raids in Cataclysm the subscriber numbers just kept going down, so stop with the nonsense. And no, I don't believe in coincidences.

  8. #1068
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    If how difficult 25 man is isn't a tuning issue - how come LFR is a piece of piss, then, hmm?
    You've missed the whole point. Try reading again what I wrote.

    Ok, fair enough, I seriously doubt your experience of not having the best 10 raiders is representative, however.
    Why? Because you think people are sheep that you can just do whatever you want with? I outlined the exact reasons why you don't get to pick the best players, those reasons are not in any way unique to my guild. You're going to need a stronger argument than "I don't think so".

    25 mans are dead because they are a pain in the arse due to non game related issues.
    Nope. They are dead for the reasons I explained. Your "non game related issues" is just a strawman. Everything is game related when you are playing a game. Building a guild is game related, leading a raid is game related, building your roster and motivating your players is game related. Just like the higher personal skill and performance requirement in 25 mans in game related.

    And you keep dodging the point where a 10 man with equivalent skill distribution had much faster progress in 10 mans, while actually in the instance, than 25 man did. It happens all the time and shows the encounters are not tuned to take the same number of wipes on 10 and 25 for an equivalently skilled raid group (10s are much easier), and on top of that you get all kinds of further complexity for actually fielding the 25 man team in the first place. This means the rewards for 25s must be significantly increased in order to give people a fair choice between the raid sizes.

    25 man with organisational issues - dying.
    25 man without organisational issues - most popular raid ever.
    Nope. LFR (not raiding), easy way to get free loot. 25 man, much more difficult way to get the same rewards as 10 man. That's why 25s are dying, because the raid model is broken and gives a much superior effort/reward for 10s.
    Last edited by mmoc670ef1c233; 2013-02-09 at 11:26 AM.

  9. #1069
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    You're missed the whole point. Try reading again what I wrote.
    No, I didn't miss the whole point at all. I simply responded with a question that proves you wrong.
    Why? Because you think people are sheep that you can just do whatever you want with? I outlined the exact reasons why you don't get to pick the best players, those reasons are not in any way unique to my guild. You're going to need a stronger argument than "I don't think so".
    Because the general reported experience (and one which is complained about on this very thread) is of the best ten players booting the weakest 15 to get progression kills etc I'm weighing what you say with my own experience and the reports on the forums. So that's many reports of ten kicking the weakest with your 1. And you aren't much of a credible source due to you being mid argument, sorry.


    Nope. They are dead for the reasons I explained. Your "non game related issues" is just a strawman. Everything is game related when you are playing a game. Building a guild is game related, leading a raid is game related, building your roster and motivating your players is game related. Just like the higher personal skill and performance requirement in 25 mans in game related.
    No, it's non game related. That is, it relies on something which doesn't download from blizz HQ. There are many of these - from your net stability on through your muscle twitch reactions - the ability to man manage and organise a 25 man raid isn't game related - it's down to abilities and proclivities that the players have.
    And you keep dodging the point where a 10 man with equivalent skill distribution had much faster progress in 10 mans, while actually in the instance, than 25 man did. It happens all the time and shows the encounters are not tuned to take the same number of wipes on 10 and 25 for an equivalently skilled raid group (10s are much easier), and on top of that you get all kinds of further complexity for actually fielding the 25 man team in the first place. This means the rewards for 25s must be significantly increased in order to give people a fair choice between the raid sizes.
    I didn't avoid it at all - I already said umpteen times it's a tuning issue.

    If blizzard agrees with you that 10 and 25 aren't equally tuned (they've said they are equal in game difficulties, btw) then they can nerf one or buff the other. Once again, the actual difficulty level of any raid no matter the size has nothing whatsoever to do with raid size (lfr proves this) and is purely a decision made at blizz HQ.


    Nope. LFR (not raiding), easy way to get free loot. 25 man, much more difficult way to get the same rewards as 10 man. That's why 25s are dying, because the raid model is broken and gives a much superior effort/reward for 10s.
    25 aren't dying. They are the busiest they have ever been - LFR 25 that is, the one with all the organisational busllhit removed.

  10. #1070
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No, I didn't miss the whole point at all. I simply responded with a question that proves you wrong.
    And the fact that you think your question somehow is relevant or "proves" anything shows you missed the point. Read it again.

    Because the general reported experience (and one which is complained about on this very thread) is of the best ten players booting the weakest 15 to get progression kills etc I'm weighing what you say with my own experience and the reports on the forums. So that's many reports of ten kicking the weakest with your 1. And you aren't much of a credible source due to you being mid argument, sorry.
    And we're back to the inevitable false appeals to majority. Once again you have failed to understand what I wrote. I made specific examples of reasons why you are not able to pick your 10 most skilled players, this is not about a single example. You're still failing to refute my reasons or explain why they wouldn't apply to the majority of guilds. You're still essentially just saying "I don't think so", probably because it conflicts with that you would like to be true.

    No, it's non game related. That is, it relies on something which doesn't download from blizz HQ.
    Everything you do w.r.t. the game is "game related" by definition. I don't know why you think this "download from blizz HQ" stuff is somehow relevant. Call it game related or not, it doesn't matter, you're just deflecting the real issue by arguing pointless semantics.

    If blizzard agrees with you that 10 and 25 aren't equally tuned (they've said they are equal in game difficulties, btw) then they can nerf one or buff the other. Once again, the actual difficulty level of any raid no matter the size has nothing whatsoever to do with raid size (lfr proves this) and is purely a decision made at blizz HQ.
    If it was only a tuning issue, then we would have solo and 5 man modes to the raids, because those can be tuned to take the same number of wipes. But it's not a tuning issue alone, there are more fundamental issues at play. In particular, the fact that increasing the number of moving parts necessarily increases the complexity. You can "tune" to superficially appear equivalent by having bosses take on average the same number of wipes to kill, but you're just trying to patch over the real issue which is the higher complexity inherent in 25 mans which would still mean that the modes are not really equivalent.

    25 aren't dying. They are the busiest they have ever been - LFR 25 that is, the one with all the organisational busllhit removed.
    I'm talking about organized 25 man progression raiding, not about LFR which is essentially soloing (the other people might as well be NPCs).

  11. #1071
    I really liked the idea of one post here, i had to laugh because this feeling of "what is he smoking, why should i want that?" is the exact same for 10man players:

    Nerf 25m encounters. You get the same reward but it is easier. No need to get better gear. So everyone will raid 25, just like you wanted...
    Of course, this is a bit silly, but when you think about it, the other way around does upset you too. Lesser gear for 10mans with equal challenge would make it harder, but you could circumvent this by equipping the better gear and going to "lower difficulty" everytime you do an itemdisparity between raidmodes. Just like WotLK, where many players raiding 10m had some 25m gear even with shared raidlockouts. Because i think equip runs with twinks is like cheating, this circumvention does not sit well with me in either direction.

    On another note:
    But i cannot fathom how any 25man DD or grouphealer can say personal skill needed is higher in 25m. Organizational Skill is higher, awareness where you have to stand is not harder or easier after you figured out how you can position yourself. But the job of this is most of the time only the officers of the first bunch of 25man raids and after that everyone is reading it from some guide or is watching a video. Even if it is just an awful but functioning positioning.

    How a run of the mill 25man member can demand anything because he thinks he has a harder job is beyond me. I know this is not true for officers or the organization of a 25man.

    As you can guess, i like 10man better. For me it has nothing to do with difficulty, but i feel more rewarded because i seem to matter more in a 10man raid. My personal accomplishment feels greater to me. It is a numbers game but on average as dd you should do 20% of the needed dps on the boss, 33% to 50% of the healing and if i do not use my cooldowns as a tank i know the healers will notice it immediately even if i survive.
    Last edited by Hyrican; 2013-02-09 at 11:59 AM.

  12. #1072
    Scarab Lord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    25 and 10 are equal - in terms of "in game" difficulty.
    No, they are not. Even the Blizz devs have stated over and over again that though they may have a slightly larger logistical (i.e. outside of raid) concerns, once you actually cross the threshold into the raid instance 10 mans have much, much more executional (i.e. inside of the actual raid instance) burden.

    25m also have more battle rezes.
    More drops per kill.
    An easier time gearing each player, which nerfs content relative to player power much more quickly.

    It seems like the issue is some people just want the high in-raid challenge of 10m raiding and not some LFR/25m zergfest. Let 25m go the way of 40m raiding, keep LFR big and easy for people who enjoy that style.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov

  13. #1073
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    No, they are not. Even the Blizz devs have stated over and over again that though they may have a slightly larger logistical (i.e. outside of raid) concerns, once you actually cross the threshold into the raid instance 10 mans have much, much more executional (i.e. inside of the actual raid instance) burden.
    Blizzard devs have stated many plain wrong things. If this is all about "outside of raid" things, why do 10 man guilds once they are inside the raid kill stuff much more quickly? Why did my guild one-shot the boss we were working on the first raid after downsizing to 10, even though the average skill distribution in our 10 and 25 were the same? Why did we then go on to roflstomp the next 3-4 bosses? If had the luxury of picking our best 10 players, we probably would've one-shot everything there.

  14. #1074
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Blizzard devs have stated many plain wrong things. If this is all about "outside of raid" things, why do 10 man guilds once they are inside the raid kill stuff much more quickly? Why did my guild one-shot the boss we were working on the first raid after downsizing to 10, even though the average skill distribution in our 10 and 25 were the same? Why did we then go on to roflstomp the next 3-4 bosses? If had the luxury of picking our best 10 players, we probably would've one-shot everything there.
    Survivor bias.

  15. #1075
    This is why I hate 25 man raiding


  16. #1076
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post

    I'm talking about organized 25 man progression raiding, not about LFR which is essentially soloing (the other people might as well be NPCs).
    Now you are lost me. Your last post was saying that organisation had nothing to do with the difficulty, now you are saying it's intrinsic.

    Can you pick a position and stick to it, please?

  17. #1077
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Now you are lost me. Your last post was saying that organisation had nothing to do with the difficulty, now you are saying it's intrinsic.

    Can you pick a position and stick to it, please?
    No. You're just failing to understand my point. I'm not going to repeat it over and over, if you want you can go back and read over until you understand, or if you are unable to understand then it's not my problem.

  18. #1078
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    No. You're just failing to understand my point. I'm not going to repeat it over and over, if you want you can go back and read over until you understand, or if you are unable to understand then it's not my problem.
    I read your point(s.)

    They contradict each other, so I am asking you to pick one and stick to it.

    I suggest you give up the (ludicrous) position you have taken that the difficulty of the raids is anything other than a tuning issue for blizzard.

  19. #1079
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I suggest you give up the (ludicrous) position you have taken that the difficulty of the raids is anything other than a tuning issue for blizzard.
    Complexity from 250% more people within the same fight is not a "tuning issue". As I've explained, and you can't seem to comprehend, is that "tuning" has significant limits. You can "tune" fights with 1, 5, 10, 25, 40, etc. to take on average the same number of wipes to kill, but that says nothing about the more fundamental difficulty. If you had a fight tuned in such a way, would you rather go kill it alone or would you build a 40 man guild to kill it?

  20. #1080
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post
    I do think removing shared lockouts would make them pop up a little more. I think that might even be enough to keep them going. A 25m normal pug might not be too awful in MSV really.
    The majority of servers arent even pugging 10mans. *maybe* if the more experienced players arent being locked to their only available variant for their guilds this might change... but I also think most of these players have alts and this hasn't really been happening with the alts.

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