4th spec and New models instead of new class and new race?

[Austilias]

Keep in mind, that previous thread was based on 5 reasons, and we argued those points over and over again. That wasn't speculation, that was 5 logical points based on evidence.

You're killing me, really. They were 5 points born of someone's opinions, with about as much evidence as you provide in your threads; that is, "It can't be so because I think it can't be." More to the point, they were rebutted by numerous posters.

Switch the word 'can't' with 'can' for the other side of the coin.

[Teriz]

You're killing me, really. They were 5 points born of someone's opinions, with about as much evidence as you provide in your threads; that is, "It can't be so because I think it can't be." More to the point, they were rebutted by numerous posters.

1. The majority of Demon Hunter's abilities being farmed out to other classes isn't an opinion.
2. Demon Hunters having a narrow class archetype isn't an opinion.
3. DHs being traditionally a class that wears little to no armor isn't an opinion.
4. The majority of DH proponents want to play and look like the DH from WC3 (Illidan) isn't an opinion.

And none of those points were rebutted.

[Austilias]

And none of those points were rebutted.

They were. Time and time again. Futile to argue with an ostrich though. Once again though, because i'm a masochist in debate;

1) There are already several abilities shared. That coupled with the fact that classes have been revamped before in order to facilitate their presence in the game (1st Generation Death Knights being primarily Warlock-based/2nd Generation Death Knights being primarily Scourge/Undeath-based), makes Demon Hunter a not unlikely possibility.

2) Doesn't get much narrower than Death Knights, yet there they are.

3) We can already hide helmets and cloaks. Monks via glyph can hide their weapons in combat. Another argument with no merit.

4) 'Majority'? 95% of statistics are made up on the spot, or didn't you know? Should the irony have escaped you, this claim has not been substantiated whatsoever. More to the point, in your previous thread it's there and black and white where you quote mined, distorted and outright lied about what Yig had posted to try and increase the merit of your own position. It didn't work.

[Teriz]

They were. Time and time again. Futile to argue with an ostrich though.

Nah, you guys just went off on your silly tangents while avoiding the facts.

You did it again by avoiding the facts I posted above.

[Austilias]

Nah, you guys just went off on your silly tangents while avoiding the facts.

You did it again by avoiding the facts I posted above.

You're the one throwing around words like 'majority' without substantiating them. You posted no facts, only opinions.

[Deleted]

Relax, I didn't repost the rest of his comments because that last sentence was his main point.

please Lord, this specimen is FUBAR.

The ARGUMENT consisted of 4 PREMISES, followed by a CONCLUSION. That does not mean the CONCLUSION is the MAIN POINT. Do you copy lesson in logic part 1?!

Also, if you wish to discuss an ARGUMENT do not address the CONCLUSION, address the PREMISES. Else it is a STRAW MAN which is a logical fallacy. Do you copy lesson in logic part 2?!

I got you right where I want you because the example we have here is as simple and clear as it gets: 4 PREMISES, and a CONCLUSION, with you addressing the latter in a one-liner (with something you already mentioned 90519 times), completely ignoring the PREMISES!!

Not only this. It gets worse! Adding to the above: your rebuttal/one-liner/whatever_we_call_it is addressed by one of his premises!!

So we have someone who puts time in the thread in coherent English writing:

A = 1
B = 2
C = 3
D = 4

Therefore X.

Your reply, quoting Therefore X:

"I think C = 518951, therefore X is wrong, it is Y."

I couldn't believe this if I made this up

[Teriz]

1) There are already several abilities shared. That coupled with the fact that classes have been revamped before in order to facilitate their presence in the game (1st Generation Death Knights being primarily Warlock-based/2nd Generation Death Knights being primarily Scourge/Undeath-based), makes Demon Hunter a not unlikely possibility.

Really? Name these numerous abilities.

Also the situation you speak of is a bit different for the Demon Hunter because there's no previous version of the class. Its characteristics are completely based on WC3. Its also irrelevant because the DK that ended up in WoW was the WC3 version as well. WC2 has little to do with WoW outside of lore.

2) Doesn't get much narrower than Death Knights, yet there they are.

Death Knights come from the fairly broad "Black Knight" archetype.

3) We can already hide helmets and cloaks. Monks via glyph can hide their weapons in combat. Another argument with no merit.

That wasn't the argument. The argument was that you guys were saying that the DH could wear mail armor when the class lore says that the class wears next to no armor at all. Which would indicate that they would wear cloth at best.

But to your argument above, hiding a helmet and a cloak is a bit different than hiding the helmet, shoulders, chest, gloves, bracers, and probably the belt as well.

4) 'Majority'? 95% of statistics are made up on the spot, or didn't you know? Should the irony have escaped you, this claim has not been substantiated whatsoever. More to the point, in your previous thread it's there and black and white where you quote mined, distorted and outright lied about what Yig had posted to try and increase the merit of your own position. It didn't work.

You mean this post;

God, stop going in circles. I have already said demon hunters could work as a spec or a new class.

---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 05:53 PM ----------

Dude, don't be silly. You know damn well you want your Demon Hunter to look like this;

No I don't want to look like that at all you obtuse troll, I want to look something evocative of this. Horns and wings ruin the look and bore me.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post19972666


Where's the lie? I said that Yig wanted to look like Illidan. He clearly said he did in his own post. His post kind of proves my point.

---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 03:41 AM ----------

snip

Honest question: Is there a reason why you're more up in arms about that post than the person I was actually responding to?

[Austilias]

Really? Name these numerous abilities.

Death Coil. Flash Heal.

Also the situation you speak of is a bit different for the Demon Hunter because there's no previous version of the class. Its characteristics are completely based on WC3. Its also irrelevant because the DK that ended up in WoW was the WC3 version as well. WC2 has little to do with WoW outside of lore.

Our current Demon Hunters are comparable to 1st generation Death Knights. Death Knights were revamped into their current 2nd generation form whilst bearing a good deal of similarities to the first generation; no reason why the same can't be true of potential, future 2nd generation Demon Hunters.

Death Knights come from the fairly broad "Black Knight" archetype.

Broad? It's pretty narrow, being generous.

That wasn't the argument. The argument was that you guys were saying that the DH could wear mail armor when the class lore says that the class wears next to no armor at all. Which would indicate that they would wear cloth at best.

But to your argument above, hiding a helmet and a cloak is a bit different than hiding the helmet, shoulders, chest, gloves, bracers, and probably the belt as well.

WoW has made it pretty clear that Blizzard can frankly do as they please with armour and stats. They could wear cloth armour, hell, they could wear about 3/4 pieces of cloth armour, and Blizzard could still make it work. Or they could wear a full set of cloth and Blizzard would permit them to hide most of it; just as they permit Death Knights to hide a rather fundamental feature of the class, their voices. Fact is, they can do what they want; as they always have.

Where's the lie? I said that Yig wanted to look like Illidan. He clearly said he did in his own post. His post kind of proves my point.

Not really. No where did he link the Black Temple Illidan, which you seem to insist he said he wanted to look like when he said nothing of the sort. If he said he wanted to look like a German Shepherd, you'd be saying he wanted to look like an Chihuahua; both are dogs, but they couldn't be more different.

Is there a reason why you're more up in arms about that post than the person I was actually responding to?

Wouldn't say i'm up in arms, I just don't like dishonesty; especially when it presents itself in thread after thread from the same culprit.

[Teriz]

Death Coil. Flash Heal.

2 abilities are not "several abilities".

Not to mention that Death Coil Warlock and Death Coil DK were two completely different abilities.

Our current Demon Hunters are essentially 1st generation Death Knights. Death Knights were revamped into their current 2nd generation form whilst bearing a good deal of similarities to the first generation; no reason why the same can't be true of potential, future 2nd generation Demon Hunters.

There was second generation DKs because there was a sequel to WC2. That would be WC3 from which WoW's classes are largely derived from. DKs in WoW are derived from WC3. If a DH class ever entered WoW, they would come from the same source; WC3.

Broad? It's pretty narrow, being generous.

Here, let me help you out;

In Literature:

Knight (see also Warrior, Rescuer)

The Knight archetype is primarily associated with chivalry, courtly romance, protection of the Princess, and going to battle only for honorable causes. The Knight serves his King or Lord and so this archetype has spiritual overtones as well of service and devotion. Loyalty and self-sacrifice are the Knight's great virtues, along with a natural ability to get things done.

The Black Knight donning dark armor and riding a black horse represents the shadow characteristics of this archetype, especially the absence of honor and chivalry. Somewhat like the Warrior, the shadow Knight manifests as loyalty to a questionable ruler or principle. In its negative aspect, the Knight can also, like the Rescuer, fall into a pattern of saving others but ignoring his own needs. A true Knight, like the Mystic, walks the fine line between self-sacrifice and self-neglect.

http://www.myss.com/library/contracts/three_archs.asp

In RPGs:

The Dark Knight: Other Names: Blackguard, Antipaladin, Death Knight. The Death Knight class is the opposite number of the Paladin, possessing offensive and often necromantic or dark-magic oriented abilities that deal large amounts of damage to enemies, although often with a price. They generally do not suffer the behavioral limitations of Paladins

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...aracterClasses


You can tell its a broad archetype because there's different names for it.

What's another name for Demon Hunters?

WoW has made it pretty clear that Blizzard can frankly do as they please with armour and stats. They could wear cloth armour, hell, they could wear about 3/4 pieces of cloth armour, and Blizzard could still make it work. Or they could wear a full set of cloth and Blizzard would permit them to hide most of it; just as they permit Death Knights to hide a rather fundamental feature of the class, their voices. Fact is, they can do what they want; as they always have.

They can't wear cloth armor because there's barely any agility cloth armor in the game. Blizzard would have to develop an entirely new armor set just for them. Also, Demon Hunters don't want to run around wearing robes or t-shirts. They want to look like Illidan, bare chested with a blindfold over their face. Which btw falls right into my argument in #4 where I said that most DH proponents want to look like Illidan. If they didn't, no one would care about any of this.

I also love your false equivalences. Hiding a voice is equivalent to hiding an entire armor set for one class? Okay.

Not really. No where did he link the Black Temple Illidan, which you seem to insist he said he wanted to look like when he said nothing of the sort. If he said he wanted to look like a German Shepherd, you'd be saying he wanted to look like an Chihuahua; both are dogs, but they couldn't be more different.

No where did I say he wanted to look like "Black Temple Illidan", I said he wanted to look like Illidan, which he clearly does. He even has an Illidan avatar.

Remember my argument for number 4?

4.The Illidan problem

Let's be honest; People want to play Demon Hunters so that they can look like Illidan Stormrage. He's probably the coolest and most iconic character in Warcraft. People want to run around with those wings, blindfolds, and Warglaives. People want those runes over their body, and they want to wreck stuff the way he wrecks stuff. So how would this work in-game? Probably not too well. If you introduce Demon Hunters, you're going to see a surge of Night Elf male characters popping up all over the place. None of them are going to want to use regular swords or staffs, or whatever else DHs could potentially use. They would all want the Blades of Azzinoth on their backs, and anyone without those blades would be considered a noob. Would they want to wear helmets, shoulders, cloaks, and chest gear? Nope. They'd run around shirtless just like Illidan. They'll never want to raid because they couldn't look like Illidan while their raiding. You think Blizzard is going to create an entire item system just for DHs? I mean, they could, but I seriously doubt it.

In other words, no DH proponent wants to run around looking like this;



They want to look like this;



You know this. I know this. Why are you trying to debate this fact?

Wouldn't say i'm up in arms, I just don't like dishonesty; especially when it presents itself in thread after thread from the same culprit.

Read the quote again. It wasn't directed at you skippy.

[Futhark]

Combo Breaker:

I'd like Shaman Tanks as a fourth spec.

Ele: Fire
Enh: Air
Rest: Water
Warder: EARTH (name ala Thrall)

If I got that alongside Wildhammer Dwarf skins, I would play WoW forever.

[Teriz]

Combo Breaker:

I'd like Shaman Tanks as a fourth spec.

Ele: Fire
Enh: Air
Rest: Water
Warder: EARTH (name ala Thrall)

If I got that alongside Wildhammer Dwarf skins, I would play WoW forever.

Yeah, its pretty crazy how the Earth Element is so limited within the Shaman class. Especially since Earth is traditionally the first element you learn.

[Tyrannica]

I would like it, however. Druids allready got 4. And Dks do need 4 right now as well. DD spec as blood must brought be back! Cause not only i can imagine blood beeing offensively and defensively by design, but it was a dd spec in wotlk for the whole seasion anyways. Stuff that bother dks against melees in a pvp environment is solved via the dd bloodspec. I think it works best for bgs, having a spec that generates hp and deals dmg and is good vs melee. Its just not so op as blood tank spec without a shield vs physical dmg and the high migitation. Think right now, blood tanks are extremely boring outside of pve and a raid only needs 2 tanks most of the time with maybe 1 blood dk. I think tank specs in general, just takes too much away from a class, as tank specs are hardly useful outside of pve tank roles and raids only need a few. So, yeah this should be fixed first before granting all classes another talenttree.

[dercaderca]

I pray that I never see the day when mages and hunters are healers. Especially hunters.

[Tyrannica]

I pray that I never see the day when mages and hunters are healers. Especially hunters.

lol yeah. but healing with a pet would be really something new, though.

raid dies, pet survived and resurrects the raid.

[Deleted]

lol yeah. but healing with a pet would be really something new, though.

raid dies, pet survived and resurrects the raid.

Haha, I'd like to see the hunter with the pet HITLER (sic) do that (I reported him, Blizzard didn't care).

---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 06:06 PM ----------

Yeah, its pretty crazy how the Earth Element is so limited within the Shaman class. Especially since Earth is traditionally the first element you learn.

What do those two have to do with each other? Your second statement doesn't follow from your first. If earth would be the second, the third, or the fourth element one learns you could equally use this for your argument. Also, your first statement is entirely subjective.

[Tyrannica]

Haha, I'd like to see the hunter with the pet HITLER (sic) do that (I reported him, Blizzard didn't care).

Depends where are you playing. I am from the Country Hitler was born. If you use his name in any way you get instantly banned without discussion and penalizied by the law. So i suppose in german speaking countries such a report will result in a ban or at least name change, in other countries it seems hitler is like the guy in that movie "the great dicator" with charlie chaplin and viewed as harmless, but here they made him the source of all evil, unlike the other source of all evil in Transylvania, Vlad Tepes, he is not used as a proud Idol to move the touristic economy.

However, from what i read in history books, Vlad was propably the most true evil ruler of all time?(at his time anways). And i read about Caligula, Nero, Herodes, Dschinghis, Caesar and so on

Btw, the Pet should use healing gas, for the wicked.

[Teriz]

I would like it, however. Druids allready got 4. And Dks do need 4 right now as well. DD spec as blood must brought be back! Cause not only i can imagine blood beeing offensively and defensively by design, but it was a dd spec in wotlk for the whole seasion anyways. Stuff that bother dks against melees in a pvp environment is solved via the dd bloodspec. I think it works best for bgs, having a spec that generates hp and deals dmg and is good vs melee. Its just not so op as blood tank spec without a shield vs physical dmg and the high migitation. Think right now, blood tanks are extremely boring outside of pve and a raid only needs 2 tanks most of the time with maybe 1 blood dk. I think tank specs in general, just takes too much away from a class, as tank specs are hardly useful outside of pve tank roles and raids only need a few. So, yeah this should be fixed first before granting all classes another talenttree.

Druids do have 4 specs, which is why I didn't give them another one.

Also I gave Death Knights Runemaster or Rune. A spec that effectively turns them into a psuedo-caster;

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20003593

---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 05:51 PM ----------

What do those two have to do with each other?

Earth is the primary element in Shaman lore. That's what it has to do with it.

Your second statement doesn't follow from your first. If earth would be the second, the third, or the fourth element one learns you could equally use this for your argument. Also, your first statement is entirely subjective.

I've already listed all the Shaman abilities based on elements. Earth had the lowest amount of abilities by a decent margin.

[Management]

I wouldn't mind. However if something similar would ever be considered by blizz, which it probably never will, it would really be necessary to first tone every class/spec down a bit. As it is right now with the clusterfuck of abilities I wouldn't want to see more abilities.

PS. I would rather see a battlemage that could DW and use 2h maces and stuff (would be awesome) instead of the time spec. Maybe even a combo of the two, because it does sound intriguing.

[Deleted]

Earth is the primary element in Shaman lore. That's what it has to do with it.

I've already listed all the Shaman abilities based on elements. Earth had the lowest amount of abilities by a decent margin.

I'm not taking your word on things like this anymore would appreciate some credible sources.

[Teriz]

I wouldn't mind. However if something similar would ever be considered by blizz, which it probably never will, it would really be necessary to first tone every class/spec down a bit. As it is right now with the clusterfuck of abilities I wouldn't want to see more abilities.

PS. I would rather see a battlemage that could DW and use 2h maces and stuff (would be awesome) instead of the time spec. Maybe even a combo of the two, because it does sound intriguing.

People ask for Battle Mages all the time. Don't they realize that Enhancement Shaman operate almost exactly how a Battle Mage would (especially one that Dual Wields)?