I have some questions on raiding

[Deleted]

Hello I'm interested in this game and doing some research I found out the endgame and gear progression is mostly done through raiding.

So I have some questions:

1)Can you completely skip the 20 Men Raids and still get the best possible loot in the game? Do the 10 Men raids offer loot of equal strength or not?

2)How much time does it take to find people for the Raid you want to do?

3)How long can a Raid of average length take to finish, with a group of average skilled/geared people?

I am asking these questions because currently I don't have a lot of time to spend on games, but still would like to enjoy Rift and get the best possible loot.
I'd like to tank.

[Fencers]

1. No and no. Rift is less drop dependent than other MMOs. Most gear is badge based, with a few key pieces being drops.
2. For a guild? No time at all. For a PUG? I would not know...
3. 2-3 hours for a 20 man, 1-2 hours for a 10 man. For a geared or skilled group, cut that in half.

If you tank well, the world of raiding is your oyster.

[Deleted]

I have heard 10 Men raids drop stuff of equal strength of 20 Men Raids of the same Tier.
I found this written on another site. Is it wrong or outdated? tyvm for the support
Tier-3: 20man ID (Infernal Dawn) -- 10man: PF (Primeval Feast) // Requirements: 400 Hit/Focus // Drops: Tier-3 set currency & Tier-3 offset gear, also "charred" tokens that you can combine with your currency gear to convert it into the relic version gear.

[Lathais]

Hello I'm interested in this game and doing some research I found out the endgame and gear progression is mostly done through raiding.

So I have some questions:

1)Can you completely skip the 20 Men Raids and still get the best possible loot in the game? Do the 10 Men raids offer loot of equal strength or not?

2)How much time does it take to find people for the Raid you want to do?

3)How long can a Raid of average length take to finish, with a group of average skilled/geared people?

I am asking these questions because currently I don't have a lot of time to spend on games, but still would like to enjoy Rift and get the best possible loot.
I'd like to tank.

Not the best possible, no. Take weapons currently as one example. You need to drop from Crucia/Regulos to upgrade it to the best. You can get raid marks and get the set from the raid gear vendor with just 10-mans, it will take longer though.

Depends on the time of day and day of the week you are able to play. I see PuGs going during prime time for TotDQ(10m) quite frequently. Sometimes it is a guild that is just a couple short and ends up being a breeze run, other times a complete exercise in frustration.

This can vary so wildly. If it takes longer than an hour though, you got some baddies.

---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 06:23 PM ----------

I have heard 10 Men raids drop stuff of equal strength of 20 Men Raids of the same Tier.
I found this written on another site. Is it wrong or outdated? tyvm for the support
Tier-3: 20man ID (Infernal Dawn) -- 10man: PF (Primeval Feast) // Requirements: 400 Hit/Focus // Drops: Tier-3 set currency & Tier-3 offset gear, also "charred" tokens that you can combine with your currency gear to convert it into the relic version gear.

That is old information from Pre-SL. Those were the top tier level 50 raids. With the expansion we have Level 60 Tier 1 raids.

[Cupcaek]

Hello I'm interested in this game and doing some research I found out the endgame and gear progression is mostly done through raiding.

So I have some questions:

1)Can you completely skip the 20 Men Raids and still get the best possible loot in the game? Do the 10 Men raids offer loot of equal strength or not?

2)How much time does it take to find people for the Raid you want to do?

3)How long can a Raid of average length take to finish, with a group of average skilled/geared people?

I am asking these questions because currently I don't have a lot of time to spend on games, but still would like to enjoy Rift and get the best possible loot.
I'd like to tank.

• Yes, if you're referencing skipping over level 50 raids at a level 60. However, the best loot at level 60 are pieces that drop from 10 and 20 man raids. If all you're able to complete is a 10 man, that's still decent. There's weapons that drop and drop pieces that can be upgraded to inclue a raid-tier synergy crystal bonus. Between those pieces, the crafted items (helm, belt, ringx2), you're fine for awhile. It will take longer to accrue marks to purchase raid gear but it's not as pertinent when the 10 man will drop pieces that can be upgraded (with dungeon marks) to be apart of the synergy crystal bonus.
  
• For endgame level 60, majority of the people that are clearing the content are in a guild. The 10 mans you might find a little more pugs for because it is easier to clear.
  
• With a geared group for the 10 man? 20-30 minutes max. With a group of average skilled/geared people, maybe 40-60 minutes? 20 mans will take considerably longer but they can be cleared with a geared/skilled group in an hour (or more.) I think our FT clear this week was about an hour'ish.

The only raids you will find gear you need are from Triumph of the Dragon Queen (10m), Frozen Tempest (20m) and Endless Eclipse (20m). Previous tier raids are no longer viable for gear as they were level 50 endgame content (T3: Infernal Dawn, Primeval Feast; T2: Hammerknell Fortress, and Rise of the Phoenix; T1 Greenscale's Blight, River of Souls, Gilded Prophecy, and Drowned Halls).

[Deleted]

To sum up, how much would I miss in terms of gear power (weapon strength and/or Armor strength) if I theorically decided to completely stay away from L60 20 Men Raids?
From what I have understood from your kind answers Rift is more "Tokens" based rather than loot from Raid Bosses (And I like this), and the main problem of the people who want to not do the L60 20 Men Raids would be that they can't loot the Heart of Crucia/Regulos, which means they can't upgrade their weapons to the Max possible extent. If this is true, this game would appeal to me even more, also because tanks are more armor reliant rather than weapon reliant.
As you probably know, gear progression in WoW was more or less like this. I have played in the Wrath of the Lich King period but things haven't probably changed so much.
This was, more or less, the gear progression:
25 Men Hard Mode Raid Gear (Best) >>> 10 Men Hard Mode Raid Gear = 25 Men Normal Mode Raid Gear (Better) >>> 10 Men Normal Mode Raid Gear (Decent) >>> Hard Mode 5 Men Dungeon Gear (Good to start raiding) >>> Normal Mode 5 Men Dungeon Gear = Crafted Gear (good for cats)

I HATED this kind of progression because, basically, you were completely forced to do 25 Men Raids to have the best gear. The 10 Men Gear was very inferior.

Can you please confirm me Rift is not the same, and maybe write a brief scheme for gear progression similar to the one I've done for my WoW days?
Thank you very much in advance.

[Fencers]

Probably would not find many or any groups for 20 or 10 man raids not level 60.

And the main attraction of Rift's raiding is that the 10 and 20 man raids are not only tiered but discrete. A 10 man raid isn't the scaled down version of a 20 man raid in it's tier bracket. They are each their own unique raids- not all items come out of 10s or 20s. You do both.

To sum it up: you will miss out on a lot if you theoretically decided to stay away from level 60 20 man raids.

Rift Gear progression:

Tier 1 20 man <--> 10 man
Tier 2 20 man <--> 10 man
Tier 3 20 man <--> 10 man
Tier 4 20 man <--> 10 man
Tier infinity 20 man <--> 10 man

[Deleted]

The way MMO's work is you do the hardest content to get the best gear to do the hardest content, if you have no intention of doing the hardest content, why do you need the gear for it? To top damage in expert dungeons? To make killing mobs in the open world a little bit faster?

I really don't see why you need 20 man raid gear, if you have no intention of doing 20 man raids in all honesty.

If you want the best gear, you do the hardest stuff, that's the carrot of the stick to make people do it endgame content.

[Whitepepper]

The way MMO's work is you do the hardest content to get the best gear to do the hardest content, if you have no intention of doing the hardest content, why do you need the gear for it? To top damage in expert dungeons? To make killing mobs in the open world a little bit faster?

I really don't see why you need 20 man raid gear, if you have no intention of doing 20 man raids in all honesty.

If you want the best gear, you do the hardest stuff, that's the carrot of the stick to make people do it endgame content.

People like a sense of progression and that often times comes from growing player power. The lure of RPGs for me, be they single player or co-op or mmo, has always been growing player power. That's what I find fun. The moment I can't increase my character's power the grind becomes unfun.(and let's face it, all RPGs are grindy) This is my opinion and I feel confident it's shared by some other people.

The carrot on a stick for all players should be that playing the game is fun. Bribing people with BiS gear to do endgame content sounds like poor design. Why not let the carrot for endgame content be the fun of overcoming the challenge?

[Lathais]

People like a sense of progression and that often times comes from growing player power. The lure of RPGs for me, be they single player or co-op or mmo, has always been growing player power. That's what I find fun. The moment I can't increase my character's power the grind becomes unfun.(and let's face it, all RPGs are grindy) This is my opinion and I feel confident it's shared by some other people.

The carrot on a stick for all players should be that playing the game is fun. Bribing people with BiS gear to do endgame content sounds like poor design. Why not let the carrot for endgame content be the fun of overcoming the challenge?

So since you can't have a carrot you want to take the carrot away from raiding?

[Kelimbror]

The carrot on a stick for all players should be that playing the game is fun. Bribing people with BiS gear to do endgame content sounds like poor design. Why not let the carrot for endgame content be the fun of overcoming the challenge?

Don't try to bring a rational mind to these boards. People who post things like what you responded to and others on this subforum have made it abundantly clear that only raiders should have any reward and fuck everyone else. It's an outdated ideology but there's no amount of arguing with non progressive opinions.

Rift does a decent job still rewarding your play with gear, though not at the same level. I don't know if older tiers get trickled down into that system like WoW did with WotLK or not. I'm fine with acquisition being at different periods of time for different activities, but for some people in Rift even that seems like far too much.

As a warning, these posts will be infracted in the future. This kind of confrontational baiting isn't going to fly. -Edge

[Lathais]

Don't try to bring a rational mind to these boards. People who post things like what you responded to and others on this subforum have made it abundantly clear that only raiders should have any reward and fuck everyone else. It's an outdated ideology but there's no amount of arguing with non progressive opinions.

Rift does a decent job still rewarding your play with gear, though not at the same level. I don't know if older tiers get trickled down into that system like WoW did with WotLK or not. I'm fine with acquisition being at different periods of time for different activities, but for some people in Rift even that seems like far too much.

It's not that only raiders should have a reward. With Experts you can gear up to nearly raid quality gear via tokens and upgrades. You will lack the raid set bonus and some stats, that's it.

As for older gear getting trickled down, in Chocolate, when T2 came out you could choose T1 Marks as a reward from Random Experts, if they follow this mentality, then you can get near the best. You'll never get the best set bonus and you'll never get the best weapons and accessories, however there are crafted alternatives that are damn close(currently it's actually the best).

As for the concept of just making it challenging and for the fun of it. There are 2 problems with that. First of all, getting gear from the first bosses makes the last boss easier. It's a gating mechanism. If you are really good, you clear it without the gear, if you are not, you farm gear first then get it. It's a way to lower the challenge through time, as the guild attempts it more, and goes more, they get better geared as a whole and get better. Number 2, besides just fun, what is the carrot at that point. If I can get the carrot through other means, that does not require a well coordinated guild and commitment, then why bother with the hassle. Heck, why bother with an MMO, why not just be a single player game. I mean hell, at world bosses for all I care those 100 other players could be NPCs really, most of them do not even require a tank or a healer that is really good, you can get through them with any half ass group that half are afk anyway.

[Kelimbror]

It's not that only raiders should have a reward. With Experts you can gear up to nearly raid quality gear via tokens and upgrades. You will lack the raid set bonus and some stats, that's it.

I agree that Rift does a pretty good job of this. And even though we've argued about it specifically, I don't personally need the best quality gear at the same time in another fashion. I think it makes for a healthier game and larger playerbase overall, but it's not going to deter me from playing. I think all old school players feel this personally, because we were 'raised' with raiding, but if companies want to obtain and keep newer MMO players they will need to start trending this way.

As for older gear getting trickled down, in Chocolate, when T2 came out you could choose T1 Marks as a reward from Random Experts, if they follow this mentality, then you can get near the best. You'll never get the best set bonus and you'll never get the best weapons and accessories, however there are crafted alternatives that are damn close(currently it's actually the best).

Which I personally think works fine...sorta like hand me downs. I prefer this method to the tedium of designing multiple alternate paths to the same levels of gear. I loved it in WotLK, which is conveniently when I started to get burned on 'real' raiding. It's an adequate enough solution in my mind.

As for the concept of just making it challenging and for the fun of it. There are 2 problems with that. First of all, getting gear from the first bosses makes the last boss easier. It's a gating mechanism. If you are really good, you clear it without the gear, if you are not, you farm gear first then get it. It's a way to lower the challenge through time, as the guild attempts it more, and goes more, they get better geared as a whole and get better. Number 2, besides just fun, what is the carrot at that point. If I can get the carrot through other means, that does not require a well coordinated guild and commitment, then why bother with the hassle. Heck, why bother with an MMO, why not just be a single player game. I mean hell, at world bosses for all I care those 100 other players could be NPCs really, most of them do not even require a tank or a healer that is really good, you can get through them with any half ass group that half are afk anyway.

I think this is why I've always said that all anyone cares about is purples. Everyone liked to say they raided for challenges and the experience, but it all comes down to gear. If you removed gear from the equation I think only the world first competitors would be left. So in a way, you are completely right about it.

I'm sure there's a different way to approach raiding and rewards systems in MMOs, but I think the evolution of the genre will see that play out on it's own. We've already come a long way from the 'old days'.

[Lathais]

I think this is why I've always said that all anyone cares about is purples. Everyone liked to say they raided for challenges and the experience, but it all comes down to gear. If you removed gear from the equation I think only the world first competitors would be left. So in a way, you are completely right about it.

I'm sure there's a different way to approach raiding and rewards systems in MMOs, but I think the evolution of the genre will see that play out on it's own. We've already come a long way from the 'old days'.

But the gear, and I guess the achievements, are the "proof" of the defeat. They are the proof of the farming for weeks. The gear is the ultimate trophy. To be wearing the gear shows that you did it. If you can get that same gear elsewhere, what is the point. Should raids just hand out costume pieces? Also, how do you solve the problem of making it less difficult for the guilds that have spent more time in there? The more you farm it, the easier it gets cause you have more gear. That is part of the reward for beating it, it gradually gets easier.

I also have to point out, the difference in stats has gotten to be nominal, so nominal in fact that I've seen some complaints from raiders about it. For Example, fully upgraded Expert Chest to Upgraded Raid Chest gains you 21 Dex, 11 Str, 9 End, 8 AP. Not a huge difference there, other than the set bonus which adds another 10 AP and the effect "Marksman Finishers cause the target to be vulnerable, increasing damage taken by the Rogue by for 10s." They are very nice boosts, and make a difference to be sure, but it's not so huge that it will cripple you for open world content without it.

Again, raiders need a carrot too, otherwise, we'd run it once, beat it, and carry on. There would be no reason to farm it, or to PuG it later, and people who are not in guilds would have an even harder time running it as the experienced people wouldn't have a reason to keep running it to help you.

[Whitepepper]

So since you can't have a carrot you want to take the carrot away from raiding?

Is raiding so unappealing that it needs extra incentive for people to take part in? If the fun of raiding isn't rewarding enough to do it then the current model should be reworked. Developers having to offer an extra reward just to get people to participate is an admission that they have failed to provide an enjoyable experience.

Think about MoP and dailies. One of the main arguments against all the dailies is that if there wasn't gear available for doing them, then most people wouldn't do them because they just aren't fun enough. This is a bad system and needs to be reworked. Similarly, if raiding isn't fun enough without an extra reward, then it needs to be reworked.

[Lathais]

Is raiding so unappealing that it needs extra incentive for people to take part in? If the fun of raiding isn't rewarding enough to do it then the current model should be reworked. Developers having to offer an extra reward just to get people to participate is an admission that they have failed to provide an enjoyable experience.

Think about MoP and dailies. One of the main arguments against all the dailies is that if there wasn't gear available for doing them, then most people wouldn't do them because they just aren't fun enough. This is a bad system and needs to be reworked. Similarly, if raiding isn't fun enough without an extra reward, then it needs to be reworked.

Then perhaps we should just remove gear from the game entirely? While we are at it, titles for achievements, and achievements in general. I mean, hell, just the fact that you did whatever it is you did should be enough cause it was fun right? Oh, and levels too. You know, since leveling up and more stats is the reward for spending time. You don't need those stats, you level for fun. Where do you stop?

[Edge-]

Knock it off guys. Get the discussion back on the OP's questions. If you want to discuss carrots and progression and other off-topic discussion.

[Lathais]

To sum up, how much would I miss in terms of gear power (weapon strength and/or Armor strength) if I theorically decided to completely stay away from L60 20 Men Raids?
From what I have understood from your kind answers Rift is more "Tokens" based rather than loot from Raid Bosses (And I like this), and the main problem of the people who want to not do the L60 20 Men Raids would be that they can't loot the Heart of Crucia/Regulos, which means they can't upgrade their weapons to the Max possible extent. If this is true, this game would appeal to me even more, also because tanks are more armor reliant rather than weapon reliant.
As you probably know, gear progression in WoW was more or less like this. I have played in the Wrath of the Lich King period but things haven't probably changed so much.
This was, more or less, the gear progression:
25 Men Hard Mode Raid Gear (Best) >>> 10 Men Hard Mode Raid Gear = 25 Men Normal Mode Raid Gear (Better) >>> 10 Men Normal Mode Raid Gear (Decent) >>> Hard Mode 5 Men Dungeon Gear (Good to start raiding) >>> Normal Mode 5 Men Dungeon Gear = Crafted Gear (good for cats)

I HATED this kind of progression because, basically, you were completely forced to do 25 Men Raids to have the best gear. The 10 Men Gear was very inferior.

Can you please confirm me Rift is not the same, and maybe write a brief scheme for gear progression similar to the one I've done for my WoW days?
Thank you very much in advance.

Just to clear things up a bit in case you didn't know. The 10-mans are in fact completely separate dungeons than the 20 mans. It isn't like WoW at all where this is a 10 and 25 man version of everything. Only raiding 10 mans, or Slivers as they are called, you are cutting yourself off from half the raiding the game has to offer.

Currently there are 3 Tier 1 Raids:

10-Man
Triumph of the Dragon Queen

20-Man
Frozen Tempest
Endless Eclipse

There are no 10-man versions of those, if you want to see and kill Crucia and Regulos, currently the baddest bosses around, you must raid 20-man.

[Kelimbror]

if you want to see and kill Crucia and Regulos, currently the baddest bosses around, you must raid 20-man.

As an aside:

Did original Rift have you killing the major antagonists right at launch? It seems a bit...fast to me. I don't doubt they have more story to tell, but it seems odd that leveling from 1-60 really sets up Regulos and Crucia and bam, they die. Unless there's some spoilers and they don't really die. I haven't read upon it.

[Lathais]

As an aside:

Did original Rift have you killing the major antagonists right at launch? It seems a bit...fast to me. I don't doubt they have more story to tell, but it seems odd that leveling from 1-60 really sets up Regulos and Crucia and bam, they die. Unless there's some spoilers and they don't really die. I haven't read upon it.

Yes, and then you realized that there were antagonist behind those antagonists. In this case, though this is really a topic for another thread, I believe we have not seen the last of Crucia/Regulos. We will chase them into the planes through the Infinity gate and fight them again on their turf where they are more powerful. That or we will fight the beings that controlled them and sent them here in the first place.