Would you like Vanilla-like 5 mans back?

[Deleted]

Yes, but not as ones you'd find in the LFD.

I'd rather have long AND difficult dungeons, ones that you might not expect to finish upon entering (challenge mode difficulty or harder), and have them reward something decent, either LFR gear or something different.

I'd love challenging 5mans to come back without that challenge being tied to a time trial, ones that fit into the gearing system. But they'd need to be separate from the LFD tool.

Similarly, I'd like to see some of the larger BGs like AV / IOC be taken out of the normal PVP queue and made into their own, longer BG things. Can add instanced versions of wintergrasp and tol'barad to it, make it it's own thing instead of having a queue that could get you a 10min WSG, or a 40min AV.

[MrHappy]

depends. If it has good rewards/lore and will reward you better than a smaller 5man then i would be for it. Problem is that if it is on par with something that has 3 bosses vs say 12 then pretty soon that instance becomes the new Occulus. Before you know it people would leave the instance as soon as they come because 30min CD would be less time than to do the place itself.

To be honest with you LBRS/UBRS and Stratholm started out as raids. A mini raid is what LFR is essentially. While i would enjoy a place like that myself i find it hard to find a niche for it today, uless it gave better/other rewards than a typical 5man

[Lemons]

I would love for them to bring back epic dungeons. Dungeons nowadays look grand, but they're essentially a glorified hallway. Old dungeons were real dungeons...there were multiple paths, dead ends, optional bosses, and they were a lot bigger. I'm not saying I want to go back to that 100%...most of the time I want to barrel down a hallway, get some loot and/or valor, and get out...but I would love an old-world dungeon thrown in there every once in a while just to spice things up.

[ringpriest]

this is because blizzard trained the monkeys that way, just untrain them.

Difficult to do when their entire income-stream revolves around getting the monkeys to push the button on the reward box. Untraining the monkeys would require Blizzard to actually develop a compelling game, instead of simply an addictive one. I keep hearing that they're making moves in that direction with MoP, but I didn't see it in either the 5.0 patch or the trial.

[kojinshugi]

To avoid the casuals crying their balls off (wonder if I'll get warned again for using the term casuals), Blizzard would have to label them "Challenge Instances" or "InsaneHeroicNoCasualsAllowedNoFreeLootHere Instances.

aka, won't happen. Blizzard is a business and casuals give them more money than hardcore players. So they will cater to them.

You speak as if there was ever anything HARD about BRD and the like. It was just an endless series of CC, pull, kill order, rinse repeat to one mechanic bosses with crap loot. That isn't difficult, it's tedious. Is "casual" your code word for people who don't find 25 consecutive trash packs fun?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

You speak as if there was ever anything HARD about BRD and the like. It was just an endless series of CC, pull, kill order, rinse repeat to one mechanic bosses with crap loot. That isn't difficult, it's tedious. Is "casual" your code word for people who don't find 25 consecutive trash packs fun?

Its definitely "hard" relative to MoPs dungeons and "heroics." Be serious.

[kojinshugi]

So far the proof is:
Yes the longer the better > 41 32.54%
Yes but not exactly as long > 40 31.75%

So don't know where your 99% comes from.

This is not proof. This is a self-selected sample of forum nostalgia whiners, not a representative poll.

[Lemons]

You speak as if there was ever anything HARD about BRD and the like. It was just an endless series of CC, pull, kill order, rinse repeat to one mechanic bosses with crap loot. That isn't difficult, it's tedious. Is "casual" your code word for people who don't find 25 consecutive trash packs fun?

But casuals would cry. It's not about difficulty...like you said...it's about length. Usually a causal player is simply someone who doesn't have a lot of time to dedicate to the game so of course if Blizzard introduced longer dungeons they'd have a problem with it.

[Drfireburns]

This is not proof. This is a self-selected sample of forum nostalgia whiners, not a representative poll.

I like how you those who enjoy things when they were better "whiners"...

I'd love to have some more dungeons back like Vanilla days.

[kojinshugi]

Its definitely "hard" relative to MoPs dungeons and "heroics." Be serious.

There was nothing hard about Vanilla or BC heroics. Things were extremely simple mechanically. You just had to know what trash pack X / boss Y did and go through a very simple set of actions. What made them difficult to pull off was the general horribleness of players at the time, especially tanks. For DPS, it was complete mindless repetition - assign CC, pull back, follow kill order and hope the tank can keyboard turn and click just fast enough to keep mobs from beelining to healers.

BC, the glory days of "hard" content had Kara groups skipping Netherspite because standing in three beams was too complex a mechanic for most people to grasp.

Yes, MoP "heroics" are an AoE fest on the order of WotLK heroics with 3.2 gear. That's simply an effect of LFD. This just means they're faster than Vanilla/BC dungeons, not easier.

5-mans were actually at their most challenging at launch of Wrath and Cata (and the ICC 5-mans as well). They were well paced and well tuned for starter gear levels. BC didn't get a well paced 5-man until Magister's Terrace. Most of the dreaded BC heroics followed the Vanilla model of a metric asston of tightly packed trash that could easily lead to overpulling. Nothing about the packs themselves was in any way difficult.

Challenge is not made up of hoping that your 2 hour dungeon run hasn't numbed the attention of your party members enough that they accidentally tab target an extra pack, letting you spend 8 minutes corpse running back. Challenge requires situational awareness, fast reaction, meeting DPS checks while moving, and coordination. Stopping for 2 minutes before every pull to mark CC is not coordination, it's a tank leading trained monkeys through a dungeon.

---------- Post added 2013-01-29 at 10:59 PM ----------

I like how you those who enjoy things when they were better "whiners"...

I'd love to have some more dungeons back like Vanilla days.

They weren't better. BRD was not a good dungeon by any stretch of the imagination. It was fun exactly once, when you first did it. It had no replayability. It was content for a single player game, put into an MMO and found wanting.

I'm not some Wrath baby. I did the exact same content that you did. It is absolutely not suited for an MMO's endgame. Like Tarren Mill world PvP, it was fun because it was novel, not because it's compelling or sustainable game design.

You probably disagree with that, which is fine. I know there is a tiny minority of people who for some ungodly reason enjoyed their 10th BRD clear for agi spirit leather, or going to heroic Shadow Lab with a tank who couldn't hold aggro as an altar boy at a priest convention. But you're a minority, a minority that always shows up in forum threads like these.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

There was nothing hard about Vanilla or BC heroics. Things were extremely simple mechanically. You just had to know what trash pack X / boss Y did and go through a very simple set of actions. What made them difficult to pull off was the general horribleness of players at the time, especially tanks. For DPS, it was complete mindless repetition - assign CC, pull back, follow kill order and hope the tank can keyboard turn and click just fast enough to keep mobs from beelining to healers.

BC, the glory days of "hard" content had Kara groups skipping Netherspite because standing in three beams was too complex a mechanic for most people to grasp.

Yes, MoP "heroics" are an AoE fest on the order of WotLK heroics with 3.2 gear. That's simply an effect of LFD. This just means they're faster than Vanilla/BC dungeons, not easier.

5-mans were actually at their most challenging at launch of Wrath and Cata (and the ICC 5-mans as well). They were well paced and well tuned for starter gear levels. BC didn't get a well paced 5-man until Magister's Terrace. Most of the dreaded BC heroics followed the Vanilla model of a metric asston of tightly packed trash that could easily lead to overpulling. Nothing about the packs themselves was in any way difficult.

Challenge is not made up of hoping that your 2 hour dungeon run hasn't numbed the attention of your party members enough that they accidentally tab target an extra pack, letting you spend 8 minutes corpse running back. Challenge requires situational awareness, fast reaction, meeting DPS checks while moving, and coordination. Stopping for 2 minutes before every pull to mark CC is not coordination, it's a tank leading trained monkeys through a dungeon.

Wrath, difficult? Be serious. Nothing in wrath was ever difficult as far as dungeons. Cata wasn't hard either, it was just closer to BC in that it required you to push more than 3 buttons to be effective. Yet, the bads cried and they had to nerf them because they only want loot as fast as they can whine to get it. Yes, they used to be harder because more than just the tank had to pull his weight as far as damage. Lets not pretend like the current system is hard or challenging. Its pretty much people following the tank and spamming their one AOE.

I really rarely remember wiping in MoP on "heroics." Thats a joke. Cata at first felt a git like challenge. But they nerf nerf nerf it and then come out with the dreadful HoT heroics. I really wish they would pick one: Give the casuals the free gear they want, or go back to actually making people work and contribute.

Again. relative to heroics, it used to be way more difficult.

[Deleted]

Absolutely not. LFDs are already one gigantic trial of patience, let alone that you'd have to spend hours in Dire Maul esque dungeons with the majority of fools you encounter through LFD. They were too tedious, and are no longer of this age.

I knew beforehand this thread was going to be one gigantic "Vanilla was so much better" circlejerk.

It wasn't.

[fenixazul]

Well one of the reasons that why the Scarlet Crusade dungeon was divided in 2 heroic instances is because right now people run random 5man dungeons for the gear or to cap VPs.

BUT, having long dungeons like vanilla would be fun, I will like them if they implement them as the challenge modes (complety separate of the standard random 5man instances), in which you have to make a 5 man party and go with the group and use an actual strategy instead of "tank run, wait healer for mana, run again, aoe mobs , dps bosses, loot"

[ohshift]

You mean 4 hours crawling through dungeons in a bland environment, filled with billions of trash, bosses without mechanics and shitty loot? On top of that, add LFD players.

No. Current model is much better.

[Kalcheus]

WCata wasn't hard either, it was just closer to BC in that it required you to push more than 3 buttons to be effective. Yet, the bads cried and they had to nerf them because they only want loot as fast as they can whine to get it.

The so-called elitists cried more than the casuals did, just like with the MoP dailies. They wanted a wrath-style run to get their gear and vp as fast as possible because they needed the gear to cover up their failings in skill on the raid team.

[Vaelorian]

Edited the OP: Perhaps this will give people a clearer view of what was meant and keep their vanilla bashing to themselves. Cause no one is asking for a vanilla comeback.

I just saw some comment in another thread. Saying something similar as that URBS/BRD/LBRS/Stratholme took really long and was really fun. And that if they created these again, while fun at first must have something thats worth going for.

These 5 mans in Vanilla were ofcourse really long. I could spend 3 hours in BRD just with a 5man and have excellent fun.

I would vote to have them back. I don't mean Blizzard should ONLY implement these kinds of 5 mans. But one or two would be nice. And yes the rewards should be nice. Personally I'd do em just for the kick of it. But I guess not everyone plays for the same reason as me.

So what do you think?
I'll edit this OP as a lot people do not read the entire thread and just assume this thread is "about Vanilla and people want to go back to it."

Open your mind to the following:

> there is no limit to your imagination - you are not restricted in the way the current dungeons are designed - so think outside the box
> these "vanilla-like dungeons" would not be a part of the current LFD or be available in a different LFD model
> these "vanilla-like dungeons" would have perhaps an epic weapon of 476 quality or something like that, at the end boss(es)
> these "vanilla-like dungeons" would not have boring mechanics etc like the original vanilla dungeons
> these "vanilla-like dungeons" could be a part of various long quest chains like they were before aswell
> these "vanilla-like dungeons" would NOT be exact/revamped copies of the original vanilla dungeons, but new ones
> these "vanilla-like dungeons" would not be the only dungeontype around, there would be 1 or 2 per expansion, perhaps loot will be updated according to the itemlevel of new LFR's that will be implemented

It is insane how people bash this idea based on false assumptions. I don't mind if you don't want this. And I am sure this poll won't have any effect in terms of actually getting this or not. I am pretty much 100% sure that this won't ever be implemented cause it is not in line with WoW's current design + gamer attitude.

I too would have issues with getting enough time to actually finish such a dungeon. I am no longer single and I am working long hours etc. So my time is precious. But I wouldn't mind spending a saturday afternoon on them. But hey I am not the only one playing this game. I am sure that there are people who do have time for this on a regular basis.

[khalltusk]

TY vaelorian.

I knew what the OP was getting with this thread and I did agree with some of the points. I personally like 5man content. I enjoyed BRD and still run it to this day (DAMN YOU IRONFOE WHY YOU NO DROP!?!)

I would like a new dungeon with a large sprawling complex. I doubt it will happen as the majority and blizzard prefer the shorter dungeons, which I admit I have grown fond of.

[Vaelorian]

I always thought of BRD of being my home. Thats how many times I've ran it. And sure I didn't always complete it. Sometimes you ran out of time to finish them. Weird thing was that I at first hated BRD. It was long and tedious. But then I always wanted to help my fellow guildies and as such I was usually the healer for BRD. Especially since I ran it so many times, I became an "expert" and could run these things smoothly. All these little scenarios like the bar, was really fun. So many questchains inthere + reputation + attunements (not asking to get them back...) etc were all part of this one instance. And you usually didn't do all the questchains at once. So you have to run it multiple times in different sections of the instance.