Where WoW went wrong

[killidan]

Vanilla server = big family, now = bunch of strangers.

This sums it up well. I never see the same people on LFD/LFR. I never see people on my realm on LFD/LFR. I don't interact with people on my realm as we don't need to.

The problem is the inability to interact with people on other realms, so we can play together. (RealID is a pos)

[Mawnix]

Im on a giant server and I know a lot of people. I have a tight "community" on it, because I choose to.

The game is 8 years old. Over it people change, along with their attitude for the people on the game, and the way they want to play it.

I've been playing since the end of TBC, and until the end of Cata I was on a medium/small server, whose population was a tight knit group.

My guild left because we wanted a bigger server to recruit, but I still have alts there, and we're all still a very close assembly of people.

Unfortunately, most of the people who dislike WoW currently, whether they will freely admit it or not, including you OP, do not see the ACTUAL problem with WoW:

Age, and the age of those who play.

I love the game and I'm starting to feel myself outgrowing it, as are some of my other friends who have actually BEEN playing since Vanilla.

I know you guys who hate or dislike WoW now used to love it, but Blizzard has evolved the game for the market.

Unfortunately, by doing so to attract customers because it IS a business, you guys feel alienated, and I understand.

The game is old, and it has to change to survive.

I've read most of the points you guys have made but, this one is the largest, and the prime reason for it all.

The game is getting old.

The players are getting old.

And that's all.

[DeadmanWalking]

I don't understand the mindset of Forum Ghosts, these vengeful spirits who have stopped being a part of our world but continue to come back to unaffiliated forums to wail like banshees of the percieved wrongs done to them or the things that they loved. When you left wow you should get to the point where you can move on to the next thing without haunting the rest of us who are enjoying wow.

After 14 years of playing Games Workshop I had enough of their price raising games once I noticed they made all the models that I owned suck in the new rule book and released newer more expensive models that did the same thing the old ones did but required me to sink another 450 bucks into something I already owned. Rulebooks that use to cost 10 bucks were now 59.99 and the sticker shock was stupendous. Games workshop would only be happy if my models disintegrated every 3 months so I would keep spending money so I walked away from it. I use to belong to a group of competetive players who went up and down the east coast winning tournaments, we were as close to a world first Raid guild as you can get. When we came in the door of a tourney people groaned because we were going to leave with 75% of the trophies, If I wore a long sleeve buttoned shirt over my groups team shirt people would tell me that if I ran into someone wearing those shirts to play for the kill because those guys will roll you if you play for fun. We were cutting edge.

But when I quit I didn't go back to the forums and wail like a restless spirit that GW sucks, that its unfair that they ruined my game, and I certainly didnt go to the game shop and poo poo all the guys who kept playing to complain about how I got screwed by GW's bad decisions. I moved on, I found something else that made me happy. I found WoW and I am enjoying it. Move on and find your enjoyment somewhere else and quit focusing on the past.

"Your constant complaining on internet forums about what WoW has become has totally convinced me to quit too!", said no one ever.

[Deleted]

Wotlk.

10chars

[Mawnix]

I don't understand the mindset of Forum Ghosts, these vengeful spirits who have stopped being a part of our world but continue to come back to unaffiliated forums to wail like banshees of the percieved wrongs done to them or the things that they loved. When you left wow you should get to the point where you can move on to the next thing without haunting the rest of us who are enjoying wow.

After 14 years of playing Games Workshop I had enough of their price raising games once I noticed they made all the models that I owned suck in the new rule book and released newer more expensive models that did the same thing the old ones did but required me to sink another 450 bucks into something I already owned. Rulebooks that use to cost 10 bucks were now 59.99 and the sticker shock was stupendous. Games workshop would only be happy if my models disintegrated every 3 months so I would keep spending money so I walked away from it. I use to belong to a group of competetive players who went up and down the east coast winning tournaments, we were as close to a world first Raid guild as you can get.

But when I quit I didn't go back to the forums and wail like a restless spirit that GW sucks, that its unfair that they ruined my game, and I certainly didnt go to the game shop and poo poo all the guys who kept playing to complain about how I got screwed by GW's bad decisions. I moved on, I found something else that made me happy. I found WoW and I am enjoying it. Move on and find your enjoyment somewhere else and quit focusing on the past.

"Your constant complaining on internet forums about what WoW has become has totally convinced me to quit too!", said no one ever.

Unfortunately, when things change, not everyone likes it.

Change is something unfamiliar to most people, and when it comes, it's very rarely accepted because people are accustomed and happy with what they've had for such a long time.

But over that long period of time, whatever they're upset with which is changing has also aged, and HAS to change to survive.

The second the people who hate WoW currently, and hate Blizzard for changing it, realize that, the forums and community will begin to get much better, and in turn WoW will as well.

Not saying WoW isn't fine as it is, because I still enjoy it, but hopefully you get what I mean.

[killidan]

Instead of discussing where wow went wrong, maybe we should discuss:

Where wow didn't go wrong?

Ghostcrawler is the biggest problem in wow. He killed heroics, raids, raiding guilds, social interactions, realms, talent trees, lot more to count. He even killed the world with people sitting in cities all day long until they unsub, but he had to back off from that one.

[Mawnix]

Instead of discussing where wow went wrong, maybe we should discuss:

Where wow didn't go wrong?

Ghostcrawler is the biggest problem in wow. He killed heroics, raids, raiding guilds, social interactions, realms, talent trees, lot more to count. He even killed the world with people sitting in cities all day long until they unsub, but he had to back off from that one.

When do you think Heroics, raids, Raiding Guilds, Social Interactions, Realm, Talent Trees, and "a lot more to count" were killed off.

Because GC hasn't been lead designer for as long as you've thought.

And your problem with half of these, are what were fixed and tweaked with Mists that surged subscribers back over 10 million.

Game has to change so it can stay alive.

If we still had BC or Wrath today, WoW would have maybe half the subscribers it has currently.

And there goes Blizzard's huge source of income to even be MAKING such quality games, expansions, and changes to WoW.

[killidan]

I don't understand the mindset of Forum Ghosts, these vengeful spirits who have stopped being a part of our world but continue to come back to unaffiliated forums to wail like banshees of the percieved wrongs done to them or the things that they loved. When you left wow you should get to the point where you can move on to the next thing without haunting the rest of us who are enjoying wow.

After 14 years of playing Games Workshop I had enough of their price raising games once I noticed they made all the models that I owned suck in the new rule book and released newer more expensive models that did the same thing the old ones did but required me to sink another 450 bucks into something I already owned. Rulebooks that use to cost 10 bucks were now 59.99 and the sticker shock was stupendous. Games workshop would only be happy if my models disintegrated every 3 months so I would keep spending money so I walked away from it. I use to belong to a group of competetive players who went up and down the east coast winning tournaments, we were as close to a world first Raid guild as you can get. When we came in the door of a tourney people groaned because we were going to leave with 75% of the trophies, If I wore a long sleeve buttoned shirt over my groups team shirt people would tell me that if I ran into someone wearing those shirts to play for the kill because those guys will roll you if you play for fun. We were cutting edge.

But when I quit I didn't go back to the forums and wail like a restless spirit that GW sucks, that its unfair that they ruined my game, and I certainly didnt go to the game shop and poo poo all the guys who kept playing to complain about how I got screwed by GW's bad decisions. I moved on, I found something else that made me happy. I found WoW and I am enjoying it. Move on and find your enjoyment somewhere else and quit focusing on the past.

"Your constant complaining on internet forums about what WoW has become has totally convinced me to quit too!", said no one ever.

So you came to this forum and telling us your story and groaning? Thanks for sharing.

[Mawnix]

So you came to this forum and telling us your story and groaning? Thanks for sharing.

But the points he make actually have value.

You don't have to be so rude to someone just because they don't have the same opinion as you, and they actually made a good point man.

[killidan]

If we still had BC or Wrath today, WoW would have maybe half the subscribers it has currently.

You say that because it suits your purpose. We don't know what would happen. There was no indication of people leaving the game in TBC. Your wild guess is as good as anyone's. Nothing to support it either way.

[Adramalech]

Unfortunately, when things change, not everyone likes it.

Change is something unfamiliar to most people, and when it comes, it's very rarely accepted because people are accustomed and happy with what they've had for such a long time.

But over that long period of time, whatever they're upset with which is changing has also aged, and HAS to change to survive.

The second the people who hate WoW currently, and hate Blizzard for changing it, realize that, the forums and community will begin to get much better, and in turn WoW will as well.

Not saying WoW isn't fine as it is, because I still enjoy it, but hopefully you get what I mean.

One of the things we as people have to deal with as we grow up is change. Indeed, we may not like it, we may reject it, and we may even whine about it, but no matter how much we struggle, things change. For better, for worse, doesn't matter, but they do. And as we grow up, we learn to deal with things changing. We learn to adapt, we learn how to deal with what changes around us. We don't stand in our little comfortable cocoon forever and hope things go back to how they used to be. And the things around us aren't the only ones that change, WE do as well.

What I mean to say here is, change, for better or for worse, is inevitable, and coming on a forum of a game you aparently don't enjoy, hate, or don't even play anymore, to complain, whine, criticize, bash, flame, and insult things that many people are happy with (and in some cases, insulting these people as well) doesn't make you a "valuable contributor to the game's well being". It makes you a pain in the ass for everyone else who just wants a clean forum to talk about the game they enjoy without the constant negative nancies going around and ruining it for everyone else. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and WoW is far from perfect, I have my own issues with it as well. But some things are just plain hyperbole. This thread is an example of a person who just can't move on with the times and is stuck in the past, despite things, when looking back objectively, weren't heaven on earth.

So you came to this forum and telling us your story and groaning? Thanks for sharing.

I don't see a problem with someone telling their own story to make a point of comparison.

[Elegiac]

Where WoW went wrong....catering too much to the PvP crowd. Or rather, refusing to delineate PvP from PvE.

[Kegler]

I'm pretty happy with the state of the game. There's nothing stopping people from still being involved with the community, and joining a friendly active guild. It is your choice to use the queue systems and portal and fly around everywhere.

There's nothing stopping you from searching for party members in chat like the old days, or ditching your flying mounts and traveling around the world on foot like the old days. I do both quite frequently.

They are optional conveniences.

[Mawnix]

You say that because it suits your purpose. We don't know what would happen. There was no indication of people leaving the game in TBC. Your wild guess is as good as anyone's. Nothing to support it either way.

I don't say that because it suits my purpose.

Do you see GW2 with the mentallity of BC?

Or SWTOR?

SWTOR TRIED it and it's gone Free to Play in less than a year.

The biggest complaint with SWTOR and DCUO was that there wasn't a tool to auto que for Dungeons or Raids, which WoW now has an it's a controversial (but helpful) tool.

I do not say it without factual logic.

I say it because I have played both of those games to the endgame content, and they were absolutely awful.

They've taken on the approach of now modern games like GW2 and WoW with their tools that make for a Modern MMO, and are actually semi successful.

Rift took the Vanilla and BC approach, and hemorraged subscribers as well originally.

Once they tweaked things, too, they got their subscribers back, and have I think a bit over the higher end of the 100 thousands of subscribers.

Companies adjust to the standard.

If they go backwards, they lost customers.

It's not making a guess.

It's making a logical theory based on evidence from games I have played, and a multitude of reviews I've read on each game.

[killidan]

One of the things we as people have to deal with as we grow up is change. Indeed, we may not like it, we may reject it, and we may even whine about it, but no matter how much we struggle, things change. For better, for worse, doesn't matter, but they do. And as we grow up, we learn to deal with things changing. We learn to adapt, we learn how to deal with what changes around us. We don't stand in our little comfortable cocoon forever and hope things go back to how they used to be. And the things around us aren't the only ones that change, WE do as well.

What I mean to say here is, change, for better or for worse, is inevitable, and coming on a forum of a game you aparently don't enjoy, hate, or don't even play anymore, to complain, whine, criticize, bash, flame, and insult things that many people are happy with (and in some cases, insulting these people as well) doesn't make you a "valuable contributor to the game's well being". It makes you a pain in the ass for everyone else who just wants a clean forum to talk about the game they enjoy without the constant negative nancies going around and ruining it for everyone else. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and WoW is far from perfect, I have my own issues with it as well. But some things are just plain hyperbole. This thread is an example of a person who just can't move on with the times and is stuck in the past, despite things, when looking back objectively, weren't heaven on earth.

This is not official wow forums or active subscribers only forum. Why do you feel entitled to tell others what to do? Why would I move on when I see the potential in the game, yet that potential fails to materialize due to faulty design decisions? The main reason people don't move on to other games is because no other game has as much "crowd". Or at least, that's why I'm here. Another reason is all wow killers fell short of expectations. Simply no game is good enough to invest time into, these days. If there is a game worth moving on to, I would. In a heartbeat.

[DeadmanWalking]

Unfortunately, when things change, not everyone likes it.

Change is something unfamiliar to most people, and when it comes, it's very rarely accepted because people are accustomed and happy with what they've had for such a long time.

But over that long period of time, whatever they're upset with which is changing has also aged, and HAS to change to survive.

The second the people who hate WoW currently, and hate Blizzard for changing it, realize that, the forums and community will begin to get much better, and in turn WoW will as well.

Not saying WoW isn't fine as it is, because I still enjoy it, but hopefully you get what I mean.

Oh I agree, I have been saying the same thing for a long time. I tend to find its a 50/50 mix of not being able to deal with change and nostalgia. Nostalgia sounds like a positive thing but its really not. The positive memories place blinders over the reality of the subject matter. As a kid I thought the 80's Transformers cartoons were the greatest cartoons ever and I caught a few on the Hub network recently and they are absolute garbage, the worst cheap animation and writing ever to be put in a cartoon. Nostalgia and a refusal to accept change in our environments make people incapable of accepting the new ways even if those new things are better. Our brains once created a chemical in our pleasure centers in the brain when we started wow and those effects wore off over time and now no matter what they do to the game its perceived as bad because those pleasure centers are not being activated like they use to.

I get younger guys coming to me and telling me that Power Rangers was the greatest show and writing in the history of television and I up front ask them what they have been smoking because I am going to need some just to listen to any more. What they have is a nostalgia effect from thir childhood that warped their perceptions of reality.

[Shampro]

One of the things we as people have to deal with as we grow up is change. Indeed, we may not like it, we may reject it, and we may even whine about it, but no matter how much we struggle, things change. For better, for worse, doesn't matter, but they do. And as we grow up, we learn to deal with things changing. We learn to adapt, we learn how to deal with what changes around us. We don't stand in our little comfortable cocoon forever and hope things go back to how they used to be. And the things around us aren't the only ones that change, WE do as well.

What I mean to say here is, change, for better or for worse, is inevitable, and coming on a forum of a game you aparently don't enjoy, hate, or don't even play anymore, to complain, whine, criticize, bash, flame, and insult things that many people are happy with (and in some cases, insulting these people as well) doesn't make you a "valuable contributor to the game's well being". It makes you a pain in the ass for everyone else who just wants a clean forum to talk about the game they enjoy without the constant negative nancies going around and ruining it for everyone else. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and WoW is far from perfect, I have my own issues with it as well. But some things are just plain hyperbole. This thread is an example of a person who just can't move on with the times and is stuck in the past, despite things, when looking back objectively, weren't heaven on earth.

Very well stated, thats honestly the reason why I would very much enjoy a Lore subforum. Its just not as enjoyable coming to mmo-champion, just to be surrounded by negativity and people that are jaded or people who simply cant move on. Its nothing less than annoying. Like you very well said, I dont understand why would someone who hates the game now, would come regulary to a general forum for it. People have diferrent opinions, and thats fine, but is just dumb to follow a forum of something some people here say they ''despise'', what are you trying to prove? What are you trying to provoke? That people who enjoy the game unsubscribe?

[Grogo]

Im on a giant server and I know a lot of people. I have a tight "community" on it, because I choose to.

The game is 8 years old. Over it people change, along with their attitude for the people on the game, and the way they want to play it.

I've been playing since the end of TBC, and until the end of Cata I was on a medium/small server, whose population was a tight knit group.

My guild left because we wanted a bigger server to recruit, but I still have alts there, and we're all still a very close assembly of people.

Unfortunately, most of the people who dislike WoW currently, whether they will freely admit it or not, including you OP, do not see the ACTUAL problem with WoW:

Age, and the age of those who play.

I love the game and I'm starting to feel myself outgrowing it, as are some of my other friends who have actually BEEN playing since Vanilla.

I know you guys who hate or dislike WoW now used to love it, but Blizzard has evolved the game for the market.

Unfortunately, by doing so to attract customers because it IS a business, you guys feel alienated, and I understand.

The game is old, and it has to change to survive.

I've read most of the points you guys have made but, this one is the largest, and the prime reason for it all.

The game is getting old.

The players are getting old.

And that's all.

That's part of it but to not "that's all" by any means. It used to be a good mix of hard/easy and now it leans heavily to the 'easy'...does not feel epic at all any more, they put up gates to slow people going at their own pace...

I was going going to list many reasons but fuck it....to me the game became the McDonalds of MMOs.

[Mawnix]

That's part of it but to not "that's all" by any means. It used to be a good mix of hard/easy and now it leans heavily to the 'easy'...does not feel epic at all any more, they put up gates to slow people going at their own pace...

I was going going to list many reasons but fuck it....to me the game became the McDonalds of MMOs.

So, and sorry if I come off as blunt, you're 16/16 Heroic?

Last I checked only 143 guilds have downed all Heroic bosses.

Heroic modes are there for those who want to accomplish and overcome the hardest challenges in the game.

Challenge Modes are also there, which not a lot of groups have even finished.

[killidan]

I don't say that because it suits my purpose.

Do you see GW2 with the mentallity of BC?

Or SWTOR?

SWTOR TRIED it and it's gone Free to Play in less than a year.

The biggest complaint with SWTOR and DCUO was that there wasn't a tool to auto que for Dungeons or Raids, which WoW now has an it's a controversial (but helpful) tool.

I do not say it without factual logic.

I say it because I have played both of those games to the endgame content, and they were absolutely awful.

They've taken on the approach of now modern games like GW2 and WoW with their tools that make for a Modern MMO, and are actually semi successful.

Rift took the Vanilla and BC approach, and hemorraged subscribers as well originally.

Once they tweaked things, too, they got their subscribers back, and have I think a bit over the higher end of the 100 thousands of subscribers.

Companies adjust to the standard.

If they go backwards, they lost customers.

It's not making a guess.

It's making a logical theory based on evidence from games I have played, and a multitude of reviews I've read on each game.

GW2 did NOT have TBC mentality. GW2 did not even have difficult dungeons or raids. It was some exploration, some beautiful world, and some new type of questing without the quest log. You have no case.

SWTOR was not remotely similar to TBC. It had a multitude of problems which were not present in TBC. SWTOR had weird movement, lots of instancing of the world, took 3 instances to move from one planet to another, huge zones with quests sparsely distributed, few people compared to zone size, graphical glitches in the shadows. I did enjoy it for a while, but its several problems put me off eventually.

You state some non-facts and draw conclusions based on your bias. Care to elaborate on what in SWTOR and GW2 were more similar to TBC and not to, say, MOP?

SWTOR went FTP in a year, yet TBC added 3-4 million players over two years. How do you reconcile that FACT with your non-fact based conclusions?