[Megathread] Neverwinter Online

[RoninaThorstone]

I feel like I might be crazy for saying this but...
Does anyone else care more about how enjoyable the combat is IN pvp than balance OF pvp?

(I feel like I am beyond jaded when it comes to pvp balance. It seems like it is ALWAYS bad in every MMO I play so I just can't seem to give a shit about it anymore)

[Kelimbror]

I feel like I might be crazy for saying this but...
Does anyone else care more about how enjoyable the combat is IN pvp than balance OF pvp?

Sorry, but you are crazy. You know full well how angry I get when I don't have a CW and pocket healer. It makes the combat atrocious to me.

Now in PvE, it's kinda what makes me enjoy the game. To be perfectly honest the game is very generic. It's copy pasted content in every map, every solo dungeon, every real dungeon, etc. The only things that change are the scenery. That sounds like such a harsh criticism, but it doesn't hamper my enjoyment of the game at all. Maybe it's because I look at the game like a 3D 1st(3rd) person ARPGMMO. That's what it is to me except it has action combat elements and many more quests to do along the way.

And really I think that is the 'hidden' trait that everyone playing didn't expect to like. It's kinda like repetitive dungeon grinding in ARPGS except you are 'in' the action from the playing perspective. Not to mention that the talent trees have a sort of ARPG feel like TL2 or PoE where there are lots and lots of choices, multiple levels for skills, increased stats, etc.

[Edge-]

I tried PvP again today. I left after about 5 minutes and won't go back in. It's an absolute fucking trainwreck of epic proportions. The complete opposite of fun.

I enjoy playing the game a lot more than watching my character get CC'd forever : /

[WarpedAcorn]

I tried PvP again today. I left after about 5 minutes and won't go back in. It's an absolute fucking trainwreck of epic proportions. The complete opposite of fun.

I enjoy playing the game a lot more than watching my character get CC'd forever : /

I rolled a CW and the difference between a GWF and CW are just night and day...might as well be different games. That being said, I had enough of FotM classes from back in the WoWLand. PvP in Neverwinter is dead to me...for now.

[Laere]

I rolled a CW and the difference between a GWF and CW are just night and day...might as well be different games. That being said, I had enough of FotM classes from back in the WoWLand. PvP in Neverwinter is dead to me...for now.

Wait until the 20 vs 20 PvP battleground comes out. It's going to be about who can bring the most Clerics.

[philefluxx]

I rolled a CW and the difference between a GWF and CW are just night and day...might as well be different games. That being said, I had enough of FotM classes from back in the WoWLand. PvP in Neverwinter is dead to me...for now.

Ya, Im loving my GWF and refuse to play any other classes until I hit cap. But I did jump in for some PvP and its a total joke at the moment. But Im not playing this game for PvP so luckily there's that.

Like Kitty said, I see this game as more of a 3D MMOARPG and Im loving every minute of it. I just cant say enough how much I love the Foundry. I keep getting 3 and 4 levels above the story quests because I keep running Foundry content hahaha.

[RoninaThorstone]

Wait until the 20 vs 20 PvP battleground comes out. It's going to be about who can bring the most Clerics.

And GWFs.

AoE cleaves vs 20 people.
mmm

[Razael]

And GWFs.

AoE cleaves vs 20 people.
mmm

AoE wet paper swinging .

[RoninaThorstone]

AoE wet paper swinging .

If you hit enough people with wet paper, one of them is going to get pissed.

[Deleted]

And GWFs.

AoE cleaves vs 20 people.
mmm

CW AOE dmg thats a weet dream

[Luko]

If you hit enough people with wet paper, one of them is going to get pissed.

Mmm, Slam + Feat procs + Unstoppable + Weapon Master Strike spam for days.

Once upon a time I was convinced GWF's had awful damage.

[Achaman]

woo first pvp match, first pvp win and top of the board! i spammed F12 and prt scn but neither worked

[Sunseeker]

im sorry but if you can buy the best gear, get profs maxed etc with no effort other than money its purely pay to win.. the only thing different from this structure is that you cant buy the very best weapons and gear directly from the shop.

Even having gold matter would make a huge difference.. but instead its nothing more than a means to buying extra health potions

There is an important distinction between being ABLE to P2W and being FORCED to P2W.

Clearly all those items are available through effort and skill. The math here is very simple: Time&Labor=Money. For every set unit of time and every expenditure of labor, an equal amount of money can be spent to achieve the same results. If players are essentially willing to sell their time and labor to others for money, well, isn't that their right?

---------- Post added 2013-05-13 at 08:47 PM ----------

One can still have a discussion about what's good and bad with the model no?

If we are actually discussing the finer points of where their model is flawed. Insanoflex has NOT been doing that, and his caps-filled posts are largely rants about how this game is the spawn of satan and the source of all evil in the world.

Yeah, this game is pretty heavily oriented towards a P2W model. BUT, someone had to do all the footwork to get high-end gear before it could be farmed and sold to people who just want to pay for it. So it's obviously not impossible(and from what I've heard, not very difficult) to do so without dropping a penny on it. Because in-game effort can translate into near-real-world money(Zen) which can be spent in their market, and then spent on goods in the game, it's just as possible to "win" without ever paying real money for it.

I don't feel that NWO is P2W primarily because everything you can pay money for, you can also earn in game(save a few largely-visual stuff like mounts, races, clothing and so on). And honestly, I have no issue with paying for something I would otherwise have to put hours and hours of my life into.

[Forsedar]

If players are essentially willing to sell their time and labor to others for money, well, isn't that their right?

That is still pretty borderline with Pay to Win to be fair If you can bypass everything by just throwing out money- that is pay to win. Now, buying things like fast mounts and experience increases are fine. Yes it gives you an edge but its not a huge difference. When you're buying a bunch of 'currency' that can just be used to purchase the best gear... when those who don't want to pay have to work for 10 days just to respec, thats a bit fishy.

I'm okay with being able to pay to make things easier, but completely eliminating the in-between and going straight to being awesome is P2W.


Aside from that, I do enjoy the game. Its a nice change of pace and I have realized the game doesn't revolve around getting the best gear and moving on. Its about the experience- and seeing NWO just as that makes it for a great time.

[Redblade]

I'm hoping they will fix that later since this is just a soft release/beta right now but, for the time being I'm not bothering with PvP in NWO except for the daily quest. I'd rather play other games for my PvP fix.

They might be able to fix some of the issues but I just don't see them changing what needs to be changed in order to make it good. Not really checked out the PvE end game yet but I'm suspecting that it will be the reason people stick around if any, for PvP this is not the game to play, at least not before some major changes are done.

Instead of DR they seem to have a flat 50% or so reduction in CC duration in pvp.
I am not sold on it, I think something like swtors resolve system, with the addition that filling your bar BREAKS cc, would be better.

Swtor's system is horrible as well for other reasons but the result is the same, the ability to lock down a player for the duration of their health.

Also, 50% base duration still means there is no DR.

I don't feel that NWO is P2W primarily because everything you can pay money for, you can also earn in game(save a few largely-visual stuff like mounts, races, clothing and so on). And honestly, I have no issue with paying for something I would otherwise have to put hours and hours of my life into.

If it would have been limited to flasks, potions, scrolls and so on I'd agree, items that takes time to farm and enables you to do things in game, it's when you cross over in to buying power, which is more what we're talking about here (P2W is fairly dated and replaced with pay for power as no developer in their right mind will sell you win items).

In short, you being able to pay to skip the preparation to do a dungeon I have no issue with, you being able to pay to skip the dungeon altogether I do take issue with.

[Deleted]

There really shouldn't be such a term as "free to play", as clearly there seems to be this group of people who think it means everything or even most things in the game will be free, since "there's free in the name."

Obviously it isn't free. Free to play does not mean "you get everything for free." It doesn't even necessarily mean "you get most things for free." It just means you get to play a game with restrictions for free, and for the rest you need to dish out some cash. It's just the word "free" that completely confuses people into thinking that hey, since it's "free", I should get everything for free, and I get to complain about everything on top of that. Screw the fact that developing a game costs money and takes time, and people need to be paid a salary, and screw the fact that games are made for profit; they're not charity.

Also, anyone who thought for a second that PvP in a Dungeons & Dragons game was ever going to be "fair" or "balanced" has absolutely no clue about Dungeons & Dragons. D&D is undoubtedly the first in this genre, and still it's undoubtedly the absolute most imbalanced setting ever created. This has been a fact for decades, throughout the dozens of D&D games there have been. I'm not saying any of you necessarily had to know any of this, but it's common knowledge to anyone with at least rudimentary knowledge of wizards and fighters.

...and yes, I know 4th edition is 4th edition, and yes, I know the imbalances in Neverwinter aren't necessarily the imbalances of D&D that we all love and know, but still, expecting it to be balanced was never very reasonable.

[Redblade]

There really shouldn't be such a term as "free to play", as clearly there seems to be this group of people who think it means everything or even most things in the game will be free, since "there's free in the name."

Then the publishers should perhaps pick a better term to advertise, can't blame the players for that one.

Screw the fact that developing a game costs money and takes time, and people need to be paid a salary, and screw the fact that games are made for profit; they're not charity.

Yet there are successful games on the market that are just that, completely free. The players can buy things but have no restrictions when it comes to playing the game.

Also, anyone who thought for a second that PvP in a Dungeons & Dragons game was ever going to be "fair" or "balanced" has absolutely no clue about Dungeons & Dragons. D&D is undoubtedly the first in this genre, and still it's undoubtedly the absolute most imbalanced setting ever created. This has been a fact for decades, throughout the dozens of D&D games there have been. I'm not saying any of you necessarily had to know any of this, but it's common knowledge to anyone with at least rudimentary knowledge of wizards and fighters.

So because older D&D games where imbalanced we should expect this one to be as well?

expecting it to be balanced was never very reasonable.

I'd say it's as resonable as expecting any MMO on the market to be balanced, just because it's D&D doesn't excuse it.

[Deleted]

Obviously it isn't free. Free to play does not mean "you get everything for free." It doesn't even necessarily mean "you get most things for free." It just means you get to play a game with restrictions for free, and for the rest you need to dish out some cash. It's just the word "free" that completely confuses people into thinking that hey, since it's "free", I should get everything for free, and I get to complain about everything on top of that. Screw the fact that developing a game costs money and takes time, and people need to be paid a salary, and screw the fact that games are made for profit; they're not charity.

There's thing thing about a fair business model, that allows people who don't pay money in a f2p mmo to be competitive, which you need to keep your playerbase up. As most people aren't going to spend money, or if they do, they won't spend a lot. The company needs these people to keep the game populated. If the game is p2w then these people won't play it, if they don't play it, then there goes most of the playerbase and with it the people who do pay money aswell, since they're probably not gona keep on playing and paying an abandoned MMO.

[Deleted]

Yet there are successful games on the market that are just that, completely free. The players can buy things but have no restrictions when it comes to playing the game.

I'm guessing those games exist in markets where people are more than willing to spend their money on vanity items so much so, that the developers can cover all the costs of developing the game, and/or they don't care about profit at all, and/or the development costs are in fact nonexistent because of nonexistent salaries and so on. Or, there might be crime involved, in the form of sweatshops, virtual currency selling, hacking, and so on.

Or those people just create games and then eventually go bankrupt. Or they're in a perpetual state of bankruptcy, and they just take out more loans and create more products which generate zero profit.

I mean, if it costs you X to create a product, you'd expect to make X in profit, right? I can't find Neverwinter's budget anywhere, but everywhere it says it's a "big-budget" game. It's quite expected then that they want to make back that big budget. Hell, perhaps once they've done so, they'll drop some of the restrictions and prices.

SW:TOR has insane and seriously annoying restrictions. I've not really run into many in Neverwinter yet, granted my character is 28 or so, but the only thing I can think of that has felt like a restriction a bit, has been respeccing. And, to be honest, even that's not so bad. I've got 20K astral diamonds now. One zen costs like 360 diamonds right now, so respeccing would cost like 216 thousand diamonds. I've played a couple days. I'm expecting to get diamonds a lot faster on higher levels, especially since I haven't really even done dailies yet, or tried to do the diamond bonuses (skirmish/dungeon and so on) when they're up.

I'm guessing making 200K diamonds isn't that big of a deal. So basically, even the respec thing isn't much of a restriction.

The nightmare lockboxes have vanity items in them as far as I know, so keys aren't worth mentioning; vanity items can be bought for real money, can't they?

I see "pay to win" as this: you get items with power X by playing, but you get items with power Y by buying them for real money, and Y > X. That's truly "pay to win". Neverwinter doesn't have that. It has "pay to get there earlier". It has "pay instead of working for what you get". And let's face it, that's exactly what people today want. They don't have the attention spans to keep at something, to actually grind for the rewards. They'd much rather get shit right now.

I'd say it's as resonable as expecting any MMO on the market to be balanced, just because it's D&D doesn't excuse it.

You are absolutely right. It's just as reasonable. Which means it's completely unreasonable.

[Lollis]

Yeah, this game is pretty heavily oriented towards a P2W model. BUT, someone had to do all the footwork to get high-end gear before it could be farmed and sold to people who just want to pay for it.

No.

People bought profession packs with zen to spam level their proffs to make epic gear.

Pay to win? Maybe, maybe not. Pay or be at an overwhelming disadvantage? Certainly.