People's fascination with MOBA games

[Repefe]

Well there's a shocking indicator really...

A lot of newbie/casual players get turned off SC2 pvp because they get stomped, repeatedly. The game has a massive knowledge check to even win games in say.. silver. This does not exist in MOBA games, they are easy to pick up for a casual crowd as they are intended to.

Yeah, but that's not indicator of cap, that's indicator of curve.

[Jester Joe]

In regards to people saying MOBAs are casual

Don't forget in SC2, you can do terrible and no one will care if it's 1v1.
Dota 2, you dare get caught off guard or you took two steps into a radius of someones move? Forget about it.

It's definitely not going to attract casuals if you get ripped apart for messing up.

[Wildmoon]

Box dragging is 2 actions
Clicking your unit into the correct position is 2 actions (unless you have it selected)

Clicking your unit into the correct position is far more difficult

Then imagine if you have to click far more than 1-4 units into correct position.

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I've played both games and I think the amount of things you can put down to muscle memory in SC2 makes the mechanical skill hardly anything more than memory.

Those muscle memories require tons of practice to hone them. Dota on the other hand is the same thing but less. All sports demand muscle memory from you and that doesn't make them not damn difficult.

You know that muscle memory don't happen immedietely right? It comes from a lot of practice. That's why people struggle to even break 150 average apm. Just constantly spamming without messing up your game is hard.

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Yeah, but that's not indicator of cap, that's indicator of curve.

StarCraft rewards you more for being good at mechanic though.

[Deleted]

Then imagine if you have to click far more than 1-4 units into correct position.

Can I take this as an agreement that APM is not indicative of mechanical skill? That was just an example.

Those muscle memories require tons of practice to hone them.

Maybe if you play Zerg. As Protoss it took me max 2 weeks to be able to do pretty much any macro order I wanted in a second or two unless the game went ridiculously late but it never does. Knowing exactly what to do when was far more difficult.

Dota on the other hand is the same thing but less.

It has far less buttons to push but the timing and precision of those button pushes matter far more. Whichever you wanna say takes more skill depends on opinion tbh.

[Wildmoon]

Can I take this as an agreement that APM is not indicative of mechanical skill? That was just an example.

No, you can't. APM is not indicative of how good you are overall but it certainly is one of the indicative of mechanical skill. Being fast directly contributes to mechanical skill.

Maybe if you play Zerg. As Protoss it took me max 2 weeks to be able to do pretty much any macro order I wanted in a second or two unless the game went ridiculously late but it never does. Knowing exactly what to do when was far more difficult.

I don't know how effective you mean when you said you can do any macro order you want. Pros struggle to do that you know and you said you are plat. I am in diamond and diamond protosses I met couldn't even do that because noone left them to their own. Oh and knowing what to do when is not mechanical skill. It's decision making.

It has far less buttons to push but the timing and precision of those button pushes matter far more. Whichever you wanna say takes more skill depends on opinion tbh.

That's why it requires far less mechanic than StarCraft. Just the sole reason that it has far less buttons to push proves that.

There are a lot of times in SC when you have to make moves that are impactful like in Dota but the testament of good player is that they will be able to do them while keeping other things running constantly in the background.

[Repefe]

StarCraft rewards you more for being good at mechanic though.

It's more like in SC2 just macroing can give you great results ... what is the common advice to new players, just macro and macro and macro, does not matter what you build. In MOBAs if you just last hit and ignore rest of the map you won't get the same results.

[Wildmoon]

It's more like in SC2 just macroing can give you great results ... what is the common advice to new players, just macro and macro and macro, does not matter what you build. In MOBAs if you just last hit and ignore rest of the map you won't get the same results.

That doesn't change the fact that SC rewards you far more for your mechanic. Macro is basic of SC so yes, new players better learn it first before doing fancy things.

[klaps_05]

yup, I prefer the good ol' days of Quake and CS real professional tournaments, not the SC2/Dota/WoW/LoL tournys, but eventually we outgrow things.

[Yunru]

I generaly cant play moba games.....same map all the damn time with limited space where you can move.
I always prefered more a battlefield like games because you have more freedom to move araund.

[Frunds]

OP, I'm in the same boat as you and I just don't see the shine of MOBA games. I can't even stand playing them and I find them extremely boring to watch. I think StarCraft 2 makes for a much better spectating eSport.

[Clrg]

I generaly cant play moba games.....same map all the damn time with limited space where you can move.
.

So you dont like chess.

Why are you guys comparing a 1v1 game with a 5v5 game again?

[May90]

Why are you guys comparing a 1v1 game with a 5v5 game again?

Speaking about Starcraft 2, you can play it 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4, if you like. And you can play some MOBAs 1v1. Your remark is completely out of place.

[Himora]

outplaying noobs & carrying hard. whats not to love?

[Deleted]

No, you can't. APM is not indicative of how good you are overall but it certainly is one of the indicative of mechanical skill. Being fast directly contributes to mechanical skill.

Being fast up to a certain point is useful but at a certain point, easily achievable by anyone with the time to practice a bit, precision is what becomes far, far more important.

I don't know how effective you mean when you said you can do any macro order you want. Pros struggle to do that you know and you said you are plat. I am in diamond and diamond protosses I met couldn't even do that because noone left them to their own.

Press building hotkey, press unit and/or upgrade X amount of times. It's really not that difficult to macro. Keeping track of all the macro is what's hard.

Oh and knowing what to do when is not mechanical skill. It's decision making.

I...know? I was directly implying decision making is the hard part.

That's why it requires far less mechanic than StarCraft. Just the sole reason that it has far less buttons to push proves that.

So if there's a game that requires you to get 150 APM, no other requirements, you can just do absolutely anything anywhere.
There's another game where APM doesn't matter but you get points for precisely clicking in certain spots with penalties applied if you're too inaccurate.
Which one requires more mechanical skill?

[Raiju]

So if there's a game that requires you to get 150 APM, no other requirements, you can just do absolutely anything anywhere.
There's another game where APM doesn't matter but you get points for precisely clicking in certain spots with penalties applied if you're too inaccurate.
Which one requires more mechanical skill?

I've never seen anyone strawman a game before. Gratz.

[Deleted]

I've never seen anyone strawman a game before. Gratz.

I'm being hyperbolic to demonstrate my point, I'm not implying this is what Starcraft is like.
Sadly I see people who can't deal with hyperboles all the time.

[Clrg]

Speaking about Starcraft 2, you can play it 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4, if you like. And you can play some MOBAs 1v1. Your remark is completely out of place.

Lets be honest, when people said Lol or Dota 2 everyone know we are talking about a 5v5 game, you can 1v1 but the game isnt popular because 1v1 and the game isnt designed with 1v1 in mind.

[kail]

Speaking about Starcraft 2, you can play it 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4, if you like. And you can play some MOBAs 1v1. Your remark is completely out of place.

In the competitive level, SC2 is mostly played 1v1 and MOBAs as 5v5.

I also don't see a point in comparing MOBAs with RTS. The only thing that is similar between them are the controls (which there are still major differences) and the FOV. If you want to play a macro game, SC2 and other RTS satisfy those desires. Want to play a team based micro managing game? MOBAs are there for you.

I'm personally assuming that a major factor driving people more to MOBAs than RTS lately is the fact that APM isn't a big factor in determining how well you perform.

[wombinator04]

I don't like MOBA games, but I may try DOTA 2. It looks way better than LoL in almost every way from what I've watched.
Looks a lot like WC3 DOTA, which is why it interests me.

[Deleted]

I feel adequet to answer this - I have approx 800 hours of DoTA 2 played and 2k+ games of LoL.

It's one of the most simply ways of being competetive in a sense of knowing that your actions mirror your results. Be it in a team sense or your own.
That is why some of the games (DoTA 2) have such a harsh learning curve. Because it is meant to be rewarding and that you can outplay people. LoL is the watered down version of this - albeit same principle and more or less a homogenized structure in comparing to DoTA 2.

At any rate - It is highly addictive, you can get friends for it, it's f2p (DoTA 2 and LoL), it's challenging, you can excel and beat your opponent, you can repeat gameplay in diverse ways of doing different builds.

And the whole "passive, we farm the lane first half of the game" is not true. Take a competetive enviornment in LoL or DoTA 2 and you will find that there more often then not is a phenomenon of lvl 1 battles of entire teams. The reason to this is because that it's a legit tactic. And being agressive so as well.

Take a kill lane for example - the main goal is to punish the opponent in such a way that they kill the opponent for XP and gold, less so reliant on farm but more reliant on kills of the enemy. To a varying degree does this have success - more so in DoTA then LoL, cuz you get a penalty of gold loss if you die in DoTA 2.

it all depends on what level you play it at - and there is such a high skill cap, it is insane. The amount of errors and margins you can do - the amount of timings and knowledge of things that can happen/is possible etc..

The real question would rather be, how can it NOT be so popular.