People's fascination with MOBA games

[Deleted]

Because "multiplayer online battle arena" can be used to describe virtually every game where you play against each other.
SC2 is a MOBA, CS is a moba, online chess is a MOBA

So can every other non-turn based game be called an RTS including CS,Dota,WoW etc etc etc....

I agree MOBA or ARTS are not suitable terms but they are still better than using Dota,Dotalike,Dotacopy

[Kelimbror]

Because "multiplayer online battle arena" can be used to describe virtually every game where you play against each other.
SC2 is a MOBA, CS is a moba, online chess is a MOBA

Can you think of an equally catchy, short, yet descriptive acronym for it? Since you are so quick to judge, yet clearly don't understand how marketing or branding works.

Would you prefer the Multiplayer Online Team Versus Team Role Playing Action Combat Adventure Game? (MOTVTRPACAG)
There's a reason why acronyms are 3-4 letters and not garbage like above.

[Enkidulgaa]

So can every other non-turn based game be called an RTS including CS,Dota,WoW etc etc etc....

I agree MOBA or ARTS are not suitable terms but they are still better than using Dota,Dotalike,Dotacopy

CS may have real time strategy elements but its most important aspect is that its played in first person and involves aming and shooting guns, therefore it would be more approriate to call it an FPS. WoW is primarily built around character progression which is why its an RPG. Dota has the top down view and resource management, but you control only 1 or sometimes a few units and it lacks base building, therefore it cant be called a pure RTS
The most correct term would probably be ARTS, or taking the history of the genre into account Dotalike, since it was the most popular game of the genre when it was still new

Can you think of an equally catchy, short, yet descriptive acronym for it? Since you are so quick to judge, yet clearly don't understand how marketing or branding works.

Would you prefer the Multiplayer Online Team Versus Team Role Playing Action Combat Adventure Game? (MOTVTRPACAG)
There's a reason why acronyms are 3-4 letters and not garbage like above.

See above

[Rhaide]

You make well thought out points and your opinion (which you are 100% free to have) is well stated, however. You are wrong in several of your assumptions.

I'm a GM for Heroes of Newerth, so what I'm about to say comes from 3+ years of playing HoN in addition to 3+ years of Dota 1, 6 months of LoL, and 2-3 months of dota 2.

For ENTRY LEVEL players, knowledge is more important than skill. If you don't know what heroes do what and what items to buy, you can be the most reactive, intelligent player in the world but you will still lose. That being said, as soon as you cross out of the 'noob' stage, you will quickly see that skill is incredibly important. Personally, even with all my experience (and I can literally tell you all 4+ abilities on every single of the 110+ heroes in HoN off the top of my head), I'm still only better than 75% of the players in the game. Skill plays a vital role in MOBA games, things like knowing when and HOW to juke (running from an enemy taking creative paths through the forest usually to obscure their vision around trees and objects), how to place 'skill shot' abilities (abilities that are NOT guaranteed to hit, and are avoidable with enough reaction time and skill), and having the experience to know where the enemies are on the map without being able to see them (although I suppose that's partially knowledge, skill plays a more vital role).

Anyhow, imho, MOBA games are deserving of their place in the PvP scene because they reward teamwork more than other game types because if your team messes up, you're stuck in a losing game for 20-30 minutes at times, so you all have to work together in a coordinated fashion. In addition, with hundreds of heros with abilities that synergize in vastly different ways, you not only need the knowledge of who does what (as you said above) but also need to have the skill to avoid or 'game' the various dangers that these abilities represent, just as 'knowing' a boss fight in WoW doesn't mean you'll win it the first time. You need to practice it and gain the skills required to overcome the challenges that boss represents, the same is true of MOBA games, but the 'boss' is a living breathing person, who wants to kill you.

[Kelimbror]

The most correct term would probably be ARTS

See above

No. Action Real Time Strategy could be any game as well. Arenas in wow, pvp in any game, shooters, hide and go seek. See your previous point as to why this name is also invalid. Also, it's using an actual word that is associated with something completely different and is usually a marketing faux pas.

Additionally, DOTA is not a genre term, it's a brand name. As such it's not going to apply to any other MOBA out there unless it is a direct copy. If you aren't defending ancients, it's linguistically wrong to call it DOTA. You don't call every hamburger joint McDonalds. You don't call every pizza place Papa Johns.

[Kelimbror]

Yeah but calling the genre "dota" is the closest you'll ever get to a decent representation. Dota is an instantly recognisable term to people who know even the most basic things about the genre. You know what kind of game you'll be playing if its dota-esque.

I'm willing to wager more people know what a MOBA is these days. We can't just be little nostalgic hipsters anymore. Kids playing LoL never heard of DOTA. I'm sure they know about it, but they are not going to associate it like people who played the original DOTA do. Genres should never be defined by niche, nostalgic concepts that don't speak to present day.

It's very rare when a product can brand itself to replace the actual thing that it is, like Kleenex for tissue. It's practically impossible for a video game, especially when acronyms actually stand for words. You don't hear people calling every MMO World of Warcraft. Same principle here.

[Kelimbror]

Ide honestly class that as a problem, Riot threw money at the kids to make them call the genre MOBA when its such a shitty term, as a result valve named dota an ARTS which is closer but still not quite there. So now you have to pick and choose your words depending on what forum your on, lest ye feel the flames of the flamers.

Well I can agree on that part, but as much as I love Valve they've only helped contribute to the shitty nature of the behind the scenes of this thing. I honestly don't blame Riot for trying to distinguish their game as an actual genre and not attribute it to DOTA. Valve sure didn't want to credit Blizzard for anything, so why would someone want to give credit to Valve?

Basically it's the highschool drama of video games. Unfortunately that results in awkward situations where we're having to discuss the merits of what to actually call these things. I see RTS as very clearly having resource, unit, and building management. Something that really isn't present in MOBA's. This is why I refuse to accept ARTS as a proper term, because it's trying to be overly intellectual.

We all know the real point of MOBA's are to battle other players on a map. Sure there's an objective and there are very high levels of strategy that are involved, but that doesn't make the basic composition very different. You kill the other players in a defined space. (battle arena) Trying to lump it into RTS is just wrong to me.

[Deleted]

DDRTS --> dumbed down real time strategy?
All in favor?

[Enkidulgaa]

DDRTS --> dumbed down real time strategy?
All in favor?

Emphasizing "action" is already a tell in the games industry that the game is dumbed down :P

[poogle]

I find it interesting that you don't think knowledge/experience, predictive capability & being effective team members are part of overall gaming skill.

Personally I too don't see the appeal. I only tried LoL and didn't really enjoy the experience. It was about 20mins of farming worthless minions while hiding behind your minions and tower-humping, followed actual pvp with slightly less tower humping.

[Remilia]

Multiplayer online battle arena I think
Its a bullshit term that was invented by Riot to differentiate them from Dota because previously these games have just been called Dotalikes or Dotaclones

I still call em strife games. It confuses people nicely.

[Enkidulgaa]

I find it interesting that you don't think knowledge/experience, predictive capability & being effective team members are part of overall gaming skill.

Oh they are definitely skills. Some people cant walk without tripping over their feet every 5 minutes, so I guess walking takes some amount of skill as well.
Its just that the things you named are not really hard to learn. If you have at least half a brain and the stamina to play 1k games you can easily get into the top 1% of LoL. I watched tons of live streams and tournaments back when I played LoL and what the pro players are doing is stuff that every 2k elo player should be able to do. The hardest part is to play as a team, but the mechanical skill required for every individual player is lower than in RTS/FPS.
I also consider Dota to be slightly harder than LoL because due to the sheer amount of mechanics and strategies it becomes kinda like chess, which is easy in theory since there is always an optimal move but hard in practice because there are billions of possible moves and the player has to identify the right one.

[OscaR]

Never played or watched LoL so don't know how that works but you can play 20k games in dota and you still aren't guaranteed to be at the top. When you don't fully understand the game, you can think that you are able to do this and that like the good players do but you can't when you're on the spot. There's a skill cap for everyone.
The good thing about MOBA (or whatever the people above call it) is it's a combination of different things from personal skill, teamwork and coordination to mind games and overall heroes strategy. The ability to position and know when to fight and when to run is not as easy as it looks. When you watch games without fog and know where everything is, it's easy to point those things out. But when you're in the dark, it gets much more interesting.

[Varyk]

If Chess is a sport (sitting and moving your hand) then computer games can be a sport too. By playing games, stressing yourself, moving hands fast, you are actually burning more callories than by playing chess or cards.

Chess isn't a sport either.

[Fencers]

Chess isn't a sport either.

Chess is considered a sport. It is not considered an athletic sport.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess#B...2.80.931945.29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess#Competitive_play

[Sealed]

I find it interesting that you don't think knowledge/experience, predictive capability & being effective team members are part of overall gaming skill.

Sums it up.

I count hand motorics, reflexes, etc as skill

Fine. I call that having good reflexes. Which I find unimpressing.
Now, quality teamplay with good tactical and strategic execution ? Those are skills I'm interested in watching.

Face it people, you can't take the FPS definition of "skill" for universal.

Also, as a matter of fact, the most popular sports are team-based; it's only natural that this extends to gaming.

[Deleted]

I personally don't like watching pro matches of moba games as I honestly don't think there is much individual
skill involved. When I see people play moba games at the "highest level" It's usually just team coordination,
communication and player synergy instead of being extremely skilled and polished player.

That makes absolutely no sense. Both fall under the umbrella of skill. Take that analogy to sports and you'll see just how retarded this opinion is.

[Lazy Gecko]

I can't get into MOBAs because I never liked micromanagement in RTS in the first place. My greatest hope is that the surge of MOBAs will consolidate micro-focused players into that genre and once again let strategy games focus on the aspects that should matter more.

[Arenis]

I beg you pardon for bumping this thread, but I think it was more fitting than starting a new one about the same subject, while this one already has a lenghty discussion in it.

Disclaimer:
I might lean towards the offensive side against MOBA, but I respect each player. Just as I respect the top-players of MOBA games, for their skill. Alot of things I say beneath here are probably subjective. But I'm just trying to word my thoughts.

On-Topic:
I think MOBA games got so popular, because they are relatively easy to play(don't start hating yet). I'll try to explain why.
I myself am a (pretty much) hardcore, competitive FPS player, since the early days of unreal/cs/quake/cod1 etc. They required immense precision, prediction and map knowledge. They had the steepest learning curves a game could get. They were also new to the game industry. As a result, they became really popular at that time.
This learning curve is what's currently driving people away from hard to play FPS games(NO, NOT call of duty stockmodes, for those who dare to mention that crap) and the transition to a free to play, rather easy to learn MOBA game is fast and easy.

Another big factor is less pressure when playing. In FPS, everything boils down to how good YOU are with a gun, and how good your team is with you. There is immense pressure due to the individual aspect. MOBA games lack this kind of pressure. The team can catch your errors and give you backup. This makes it more appealing for many (newer) players.

I myself tried various MOBA games. I just get so immensly bored after even a single match. It's slow, boring, predictable and above all, easy. There's not much of a challenge imo.

[Hraklea]

It's slow, boring, predictable and above all, easy. There's not much of a challenge imo.

"Slow" depends on which MOBA you played. Demigod is insanelly slow, but Bloodline Champion is very fast paced. Also, high level matches usually have way more "ganks" than low level matches, so the pace also depends on which level you played. Downloading LoL and playing one match with another lvl 1 players is not a fair way to judge a game, for instance.

"Boring" is up to you. I find soccer boring, but it is the most popular sport in Brazil ever.

"Predictable" and "easy" depends on your opponents. MOBAs are PvP games, so everytime you find an easy match, all you have to do is to play against better players.

EDIT: your post seems to imply that having a more accessible learning curve is a bad thing. Am I misreading you or you actually think that?