I the idea behind 25-mans

[checking facts]

why? because they make me feel worthless.

you need 2.5 times as many people to beat the same guy as 10 man. by that logic, it feels like the 25 people of that group are 2.5 times weaker than the 10 who just killed the very same guy in 10 man, even if that's not really true.

if I were WoW's lead game designer, I'd do it like this:

• bosses have the same amount of health in all modes. other stats may vary;
• raid finder is 40 man, for an army of not-so-skilled random unknown foot soldiers;
• normal mode is 25 man, for a big group of skilled adventurers;
• heroic mode is 10 man, for a tight group of extremely powerful heroes;

that way the game would feel more logic

[Dreadziel]

how about ... no

Infracted. Please post constructively.

[Deleted]

No words can be found to describe what a bad idea that would be..

[philefluxx]

Im with ya and I think it could totally work.


Dont mind the nay sayer's who dont even provide a rebuttal, they don't like new ideas so they automatically react with what they feel is a witty response.

---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 11:57 AM ----------

That would make 10's much harder and still give the same loot.
I doubt people would enjoy that.

It would also mean that competitive raiding (top 100) would screw every 25-guild.
LFR is easy enough as it is, making it 40 would be too much.

Not if they provide the same thunderforge logic or even the same item level logic like they did in the past where the harder the raid the better the loot. Think outside the blizzard box hombre.

[Cerebrate]

that way the game would feel more logic

[Deleted]

wow great idea OP!
On par or superior to the idea a few butthurt raiders had in the end of Wrath, that 10s should be "equal" in all aspects to 25s (without having to put equal input ofc)!
It worked wonders in Cataclysm and now in MoP!
It refreshed raiding!

I think you should stick to your idea and spread the word in anticipation of the new expansion!
Some brilliant mind in Blizzards HQ might listen and bring it to live!!!

[Bruddoris]

why? because they make me feel worthless.

you need 2.5 times as many people to beat the same guy as 10 man. by that logic, it feels like the 25 people of that group are 2.5 times weaker than the 10 who just killed the very same guy in 10 man, even if that's not really true.

if I were WoW's lead game designer, I'd do it like this:

• bosses have the same amount of health in all modes. other stats may vary;
• raid finder is 40 man, for an army of not-so-skilled random unknown foot soldiers;
• normal mode is 25 man, for a big group of skilled adventurers;
• heroic mode is 10 man, for a tight group of extremely powerful heroes;

that way the game would feel more logic

here are my concerns with your Idea,

1. 40 people is a lot to put in some of the boss encounters spreading out for any affect would be bordering on impossible, thus encouraging the already common logic of stand in it let the healers heal through, not my Idea of an improvement.
2. If all levels of bosses had equal health then either 25 man is going to be killing bosses so fast some mechanics are virtually ignorable, or 10 man will be literally impossible, as you are asking heroic raiders to output dps in the realm of 300% of normal raiders, and there just isn't the possibility for that kind of increase on the average.
3. you would Cause huge issues for guilds attempting to transition from normal to heroic as 15 people would then sit out or form a second team leaving 5 out, and you would still need to find editional people to fill core spots since in most cases the ratio of tanks healers and dps does not match up to get 2 10 man teams from a single 25 where all 20 people are still doing the role they were in the 25.

[lunchbox2042]

From a logic standpoint it would make sense. It should be far more difficult for 10 people to slay generic giant bad guy of the day than for say, 25 or 40 men to do so. However, from a gameplay standpoint, it doesn't make sense that you would cut half your guild to do harder content and the majority of 10 man guilds are casual moreso than hardcore.

[Banzhe]

Im with ya and I think it could totally work.


Dont mind the nay sayer's who dont even provide a rebuttal, they don't like new ideas so they automatically react with what they feel is a witty response.

How about the mere fact that you'd downscale from 25 > 10 moving from normal > heroic, automatically benching a minimum of 5-15 players as that's the number required for 25 to begin with.., it's easier just to accept that the developers at blizzard have no idea where to go, or where it started.

[Keoren]

One could twist this around and claim that it makes no sense that some of the bosses can be killed by only 10 people.

I would try to not think about it too much since people have different preferences and it's often good to try to offer them different alternatives to fit those. 25-mans are also very strongly established in this game.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Worst idea of the month. How did you even come up with something terrible like this?

[Tekkommo]

Logically it makes sense.

But for me and I am sure many others, even those who do raid 10 man, will agree that 10 man is not a raid, it just feels small. I know not all will agree, but that's why people keep playing 25 mans, it takes more effort as a group, but it feels more epic.

[Deleted]

How is it logical that harder bosses would need less people?

[Holyshnikies]

why? because they make me feel worthless.
if I were WoW's lead game designer, I'd do it like this:

• bosses have the same amount of health in all modes. other stats may vary;
• raid finder is 40 man, for an army of not-so-skilled random unknown foot soldiers;
• normal mode is 25 man, for a big group of skilled adventurers;
• heroic mode is 10 man, for a tight group of extremely powerful heroes;

that way the game would feel more logic

Im all for it accept the 40 man. Talk about a lag fest. 25 would be the most ever and even then, 25s are still laggy with even a high end pc with you are in mid combat. But other than that, I like that concept much better.

[Dubalicious]

Logically speaking, it isn't a bad idea at all (say, if this was a brand new game or something)

Practically, it's just. . . Unnecessary (that's the nicest word I can come up with!)

[Hakto]

Speaking logically.

Typically you have needed to kill/clear on normal mode before heroic.

So your idea is you have a roster that supports a 25 man raid to kill it normal then just 'ditch' 15 people for heroic?

I can see that working well for the guild .....

[JohnnyTheCherriesLover]

I'd rather have the wotlk system back, but with shared lockout.

[Reyzzz]

Logically it makes sense.

But for me and I am sure many others, even those who do raid 10 man, will agree that 10 man is not a raid, it just feels small. I know not all will agree, but that's why people keep playing 25 mans, it takes more effort as a group, but it feels more epic.

6 people is a raid, why not 10?

[Hakto]

Now speaking numerically.

leaving LFr out of the discussion because it is largely irrelevant.

Boss has same health on 10 and 25.

25 usually consists of 2 tanks 5-6 heals and rest dps

10 usually consists of 2 tanks 2-3 heals and rest dps.

This means the dps are going to have to do 3 times the dps or more to kill the boss without some form of buff or gimping of mechanics.

How will this make you 'feel' super powerful by requiring either mechanics (enrage timers etc) gimped or your players buffed by a massive amount to defeat the boss?

Also where is the 'epic' feeling of the encounter?

Most people that raid 25s do so for that epic feel of needing many people to down an encounter thereby making those individuals powerful in theri ability to work together to overcome such insurmountable odds.

[Dubalicious]

6 people is a raid, why not 10?

I think the point was that a 10 man "raid" *feels* more like a party, but you couldn't even make that argument/claim against a 25 man raid.

---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 04:30 PM ----------

How is it logical that harder bosses would need less people?

It's harder *BECAUSE* you have less people - it's the same boss otherwise.