Which one of these hurt the community more?

[Vaelorian]

Wildtree and SJ have a nice perspective tbh.

[Crashdummy]

Flying Mounts - Don't get me wrong: I love flying mounts. They were a godsend in a day where out and about was the name of the game. Flying was a tremendous quality of life improvement, but it was the first game-changing addition that gave leeway to taking the easy path. I'm not saying it killed World PvP or anything like that; it just made something much, much easier than it used to be.

First i want to say that i am using your post as an example, nothing personal to you.

But things like this is what i am talking about. The community was dead a long time ago.

Flying mounts dont hurted anything. Flying mounts allowed people that DIDNT WANT TO PVP in the first place to fly away and avoid it.

That DIDNT HURT THE COMMUNITY. What was hurting the community was people forcing people that didnt want to PVP into PVP. Its not good for "the community" that someone cant avoid something they dont want to do, just so another one can enjoy having an easy kill.

The community was dead a long time ago, with PVP camping people that clearly didnt want to fight back for example, or as i stated before, by raiding groups stealing raiders from other less progressed groups and leaving them starved and without a chance to progress, just because they were too lazy to re gear/re attune a new recruit.

---------- Post added 2013-02-04 at 01:39 PM ----------

... but I also feel that farming Karazhan, wishing you could raid Black Temple one day, was a good motivator to learn and improve and make it happen one day...

This is wrong. having entire guidls doing Karazhan for 2 years without being able to move on was one of the worst designs Blizzard has ever done in ANY of their games.

It was one of the greatest failures of the gaming industry. It waxsnt a motivator, it was just lame.

[Vaelorian]

First i want to say that i am using your post as an example, nothing personal to you.

But things like this is what i am talking about. The community was dead a long time ago.

Flying mounts dont hurted anything. Flying mounts allowed people that DIDNT WANT TO PVP in the first place to fly away and avoid it.

That DIDNT HURT THE COMMUNITY. What was hurting the community was people forcing people that didnt want to PVP into PVP. Its not good for "the community" that someone cant avoid something they dont want to do, just so another one can enjoy having an easy kill.

The community was dead a long time ago, with PVP camping people that clearly didnt want to fight back for example, or as i stated before, by raiding groups stealing raiders from other less progressed groups and leaving them starved and without a chance to progress, just because they were too lazy to re gear/re attune a new recruit.

---------- Post added 2013-02-04 at 01:39 PM ----------



This is wrong. having entire guidls doing Karazhan for 2 years without being able to move on was one of the worst designs Blizzard has ever done in ANY of their games.

It was one of the greatest failures of the gaming industry. It waxsnt a motivator, it was just lame.

So it was blizzards fault that your guild wasn't pro or persistant enough to down an instance as simple as karazhan? I'm sorry for you

[Crashdummy]

So it was blizzards fault that your guild wasn't pro or persistant enough to down an instance as simple as karazhan? I'm sorry for you

My guild? No, hundreds of guilds? Yes.

It was Blizzard's horrible design, with attunements and tiered raids (which lead to groups stealing raiders from another groups because of lazyness) couple with the 10-25 man jump that made that cataclysmic failure.

Also, maybe you can reply with arguments the next time instead of a really poor attempt of bashing me.

[crunk]

So it was blizzards fault that your guild wasn't pro or persistant enough to down an instance as simple as karazhan? I'm sorry for you

you obviously didnt play tbc. Many, MANY people got stuck in kara/za hell because they didn't want to leave their friends and your guild became a stepping stone guild into bigger, more progressed raiding guilds. step 1 was to get geared in kara, step 2 was getting attuned to SSC and TK, step 3 was to get poached by an established 25m guild so your current kara guild couldn't field a 25 man raid. my guild suffered through this all of bc and it became sort of a depressing in-joke that proved itself to be true more often than not. full kara epics? grats on getting into <Cynosure>!

it wasn't about being pro or persistent it was about choosing friends over progression. why do you think they nixed attunements and made 10 player raids in the first place?

[Vaelorian]

you obviously didnt play tbc. Many, MANY people got stuck in kara/za hell because they didn't want to leave their friends and your guild became a stepping stone guild into bigger, more progressed raiding guilds. step 1 was to get geared in kara, step 2 was getting attuned to SSC and TK, step 3 was to get poached by an established 25m guild so your current kara guild couldn't field a 25 man raid. my guild suffered through this all of bc and it became sort of a depressing in-joke that proved itself to be true more often than not. full kara epics? grats on getting into <Cynosure>!

it wasn't about being pro or persistent it was about choosing friends over progression. why do you think they nixed attunements and made 10 player raids in the first place?

alright i am sorry - i am a little intoxicated right now. Maybe i had the luck of making my guild at the point in time the curator was within reach for most guilds and killed muru pre nerf. Lot of work and dedication tbh. So again sorry you and other guilds didn't make it. Guess your gm had other things to do.

[Fagatronics]

This is wrong. having entire guidls doing Karazhan for 2 years without being able to move on was one of the worst designs Blizzard has ever done in ANY of their games.

It was one of the greatest failures of the gaming industry. It waxsnt a motivator, it was just lame.

Considering TBC significantly grew the popularity of WoW and Karazhan is still revered as one of the communities favorite raids, I would not consider it a failure or lame. Besides later on they did add ZA for 10 man exclusive guilds / guilds stuck on T5 progression.

TBC raiding definitely wasn't perfect (ie attunements, poaching, inconsistent difficulties) but that could have been improved upon. Raiding now has swung too far the other direction where overall it is far too easy or far too hard for most players.

But instead of making the players re-evaluate their strategy, set up, rotation, gear, etc Blizzard nerfs content or buffs players before players have to struggle too long. It really takes the accomplishment and satisfaction out of raiding. (And that doesn't even take into account that players have likely killed the boss 5-10 times already between LFR and normal modes)

[Sj]

First i want to say that i am using your post as an example, nothing personal to you.

But things like this is what i am talking about. The community was dead a long time ago.

Flying mounts dont hurted anything. Flying mounts allowed people that DIDNT WANT TO PVP in the first place to fly away and avoid it.

That DIDNT HURT THE COMMUNITY. What was hurting the community was people forcing people that didnt want to PVP into PVP. Its not good for "the community" that someone cant avoid something they dont want to do, just so another one can enjoy having an easy kill.

The community was dead a long time ago, with PVP camping people that clearly didnt want to fight back for example, or as i stated before, by raiding groups stealing raiders from other less progressed groups and leaving them starved and without a chance to progress, just because they were too lazy to re gear/re attune a new recruit.

Nobody forced people to do PVP. If you didn't want to PVP, you didn't roll on a PVP realm. If you did roll on a PVP realm and you didn't want to PVP, that's the fault of the individual and nobody else. And whether a community was alive or dead was really dependent on which server you were on.

As far as the community being dead before TBC, well that's subjective and completely dependent on which realm you were on. And raider poaching was a problem that predates WoW. If anything, WoW helped battle this by making raid sizes smaller.

This is wrong. having entire guidls doing Karazhan for 2 years without being able to move on was one of the worst designs Blizzard has ever done in ANY of their games.

It was one of the greatest failures of the gaming industry. It waxsnt a motivator, it was just lame.

This is always going to be a contentious topic, but honestly, raiding isn't for everyone. In my eyes, the main problem with Karazhan was that it was a 10-man, and everything else (except ZA) was 25-man. The true hurdle for getting past Karazhan was finding enough people to convert to 25's. The system could've been better, especially with heroics that helped gear people between tiers. Making previous content obsolete to everybody is one of the worst things they ever did. This encourages people to feel entitled to the same thing that everyone else gets.

It was Blizzard's horrible design, with attunements and tiered raids (which lead to groups stealing raiders from another groups because of lazyness) couple with the 10-25 man jump that made that cataclysmic failure.

Attunements weren't a bad idea, they were just executed poorly.

[Deleted]

People haven't changed.

In Vanilla (I know, awesome when someone starts a sentence with those words) you (I did anyway) spent a fairly long time building up a network of friends and acquaintances on the server. These were the people that mattered, the population of your server mattered because there was no connection to other servers, no LFD tool, no anonymity.

If you had a reputation as a ninja looter or just a reputation as a prick then you were unlikely to get anywhere in the long run... People remembered names, guilds, attitudes and seeing as you needed to use your connections or skills in using trade chat to get groups then those reputations equalled who you were on the server. However that network of friends on the server was there primarily for your own gain, Just like networking IRL.

I'd love to say that LFD or server transfers "killed the community" but that would be a cop out. In actual fact all that these tools did was provide an air of anonymity, just like groups of youths wearing face masks during a riot (bit of an extreme comparison but an apt one) to protect their identity and loot a Ladbrokes without fear of repercussions LFD/LFR allows people to act like idiots because there's no consequences, it doesn't make them act like idiots, swear or roll "need" on everything they physically can - they just do it because there's no reason not to.

There was an anonymous survey done a while ago about "cheating on your partner" and the question was asked "if you could cheat and there was no possibility of anyone else ever finding out about it, would you?" The majority of people, male and female answered "yes" because that's just how people are... The same applies to "being a dick to LFD/LFR/CRZ people" IMO.

[Deleted]

People haven't changed.

In Vanilla (I know, awesome when someone starts a sentence with those words) you (I did anyway) spent a fairly long time building up a network of friends and acquaintances on the server. These were the people that mattered, the population of your server mattered because there was no connection to other servers, no LFD tool, no anonymity.

If you had a reputation as a ninja looter or just a reputation as a prick then you were unlikely to get anywhere in the long run... People remembered names, guilds, attitudes and seeing as you needed to use your connections or skills in using trade chat to get groups then those reputations equalled who you were on the server. However that network of friends on the server was there primarily for your own gain, Just like networking IRL.

I'd love to say that LFD or server transfers "killed the community" but that would be a cop out. In actual fact all that these tools did was provide an air of anonymity, just like groups of youths wearing face masks during a riot (bit of an extreme comparison but an apt one) to protect their identity and loot a Ladbrokes without fear of repercussions LFD/LFR allows people to act like idiots because there's no consequences, it doesn't make them act like idiots, swear or roll "need" on everything they physically can - they just do it because there's no reason not to.

What about a platform such as Openraid. It uses realID/BattleTag, has a platform to evaluate players, it allows players with similar interest to come together due to its billboard and chat system. It removes anonymity.

There was an anonymous survey done a while ago about "cheating on your partner" and the question was asked "if you could cheat and there was no possibility of anyone else ever finding out about it, would you?" The majority of people, male and female answered "yes" because that's just how people are... The same applies to "being a dick to LFD/LFR/CRZ people" IMO.

Yep all too often its also the thrills or the fear getting caught. Interesting one in there is the reverse psychology one where you are both OK with cheating because of the natural flow. It takes the pressure off, creates more self reliance, and openness/honesty on the subject.

[Crashdummy]

Considering TBC significantly grew the popularity of WoW and Karazhan is still revered as one of the communities favorite raids, I would not consider it a failure or lame. Besides later on they did add ZA for 10 man exclusive guilds / guilds stuck on T5 progression.

TBC raiding definitely wasn't perfect (ie attunements, poaching, inconsistent difficulties) but that could have been improved upon. Raiding now has swung too far the other direction where overall it is far too easy or far too hard for most players.

But instead of making the players re-evaluate their strategy, set up, rotation, gear, etc Blizzard nerfs content or buffs players before players have to struggle too long. It really takes the accomplishment and satisfaction out of raiding. (And that doesn't even take into account that players have likely killed the boss 5-10 times already between LFR and normal modes)

I didnt say TBC was a failure or lame, i said TBC easly raiding schedule was a failure and lame.

It was so lame, and such a failure, that attunements were retired within the same expansion, catch up mechanism were introduced, and they completely change the design into Wrath.

All the designs that came after that, were better designs that stopped encouraging the stealing of players form other guilds.

I'm pretty sure Paragon felt really accomplished at beating Ragnaros H after 500 attempts, and i'm pretty sure killing LK H felt like a good accomplishment, so no, accomplishment and satisfaction were not taken out of raiding, satisfaction might have been taken out of people that enjoy when others fail at doing something, but i dont think content should be designed for that people anyway.

[Stormspellz]

First i want to say that i am using your post as an example, nothing personal to you.

But things like this is what i am talking about. The community was dead a long time ago.

Flying mounts dont hurted anything. Flying mounts allowed people that DIDNT WANT TO PVP in the first place to fly away and avoid it.

That DIDNT HURT THE COMMUNITY. What was hurting the community was people forcing people that didnt want to PVP into PVP. Its not good for "the community" that someone cant avoid something they dont want to do, just so another one can enjoy having an easy kill.

The community was dead a long time ago, with PVP camping people that clearly didnt want to fight back for example, or as i stated before, by raiding groups stealing raiders from other less progressed groups and leaving them starved and without a chance to progress, just because they were too lazy to re gear/re attune a new recruit.

---------- Post added 2013-02-04 at 01:39 PM ----------



This is wrong. having entire guidls doing Karazhan for 2 years without being able to move on was one of the worst designs Blizzard has ever done in ANY of their games.

It was one of the greatest failures of the gaming industry. It waxsnt a motivator, it was just lame.

your whole pvp rant is summed up with: pvp happened on a pvp server, although your pve rant portion i will agree with.

[Crashdummy]

Nobody forced people to do PVP. If you didn't want to PVP, you didn't roll on a PVP realm. If you did roll on a PVP realm and you didn't want to PVP, that's the fault of the individual and nobody else. And whether a community was alive or dead was really dependent on which server you were on.

The motives people had to roll on PVP servers were multiple (RL friends, server PVE level which was often higher in PVP realms, populations, etc) the point is that many people in PVP servers did not want to PVP (as it is shown with people just flying away from battles) and forcing those people into PVPing hurted the community a lot by making those people get angered, frustrated, and then having a bad attitude agaisnt other players that had nothing to do with it.

if anything, flying mounts helped the community. the problem is that World PVPers (which are very few) were confronted with the reality that very few people were actually interested in doing World PVP after serious, balanced instanced PVP were developed.

As far as the community being dead before TBC, well that's subjective and completely dependent on which realm you were on. And raider poaching was a problem that predates WoW. If anything, WoW helped battle this by making raid sizes smaller.

I did nont said dead, i said the community was as bad as today, but they showed how bad they were in other parts of the game and not in dungeons. Poaching was rampant in TBC, it was worse than in any game i have ever played, and i have been playing games since early 80s.

This is always going to be a contentious topic, but honestly, raiding isn't for everyone. In my eyes, the main problem with Karazhan was that it was a 10-man, and everything else (except ZA) was 25-man. The true hurdle for getting past Karazhan was finding enough people to convert to 25's. The system could've been better, especially with heroics that helped gear people between tiers. Making previous content obsolete to everybody is one of the worst things they ever did. This encourages people to feel entitled to the same thing that everyone else gets.

I respect your opinion, but i disagree. raiding is for everyone that like to do it, and not just for a tiny elite that likes to do it an is very skilled. The problem was not only that Kara was 10 man, because even when some people were locked in Kara, others were locked in mid t5 untill attunements were removed. The problem was poaching, how proliferant it was and the impact it had in the poached guild group having to re gear and re attune a new member.
Old content gets obsolete when new content comes. Thats life, and its a much, MUCH better design than making content unreachable to most of the people. Also, content was very few times obsolete the moment a new raid comes out, inj most of WoW's history, that didnt happen, even in Wrath and Cata.

Attunements weren't a bad idea, they were just executed poorly.

They are a bad idea, they go agaisnt the nature of games and agaisnt human nature, because people want to do the new content, and telling they should be satisfied with other people's left overs (which is what attunements mean) is a bad idea.

[RicardoZ]

CRZ. Your realm is not your own anymore.

[Crashdummy]

your whole pvp rant is summed up with: pvp happened on a pvp server, although your pve rant portion i will agree with.

Its not a rant, its a description of a fact. The fact that most people when faced with inminent world PVP decides to mount and get away shows that very few people do in fact enjoy world PVP, even in PVP servers. Forcing all the rest into world PVP just because a few people like to gank instead of going into balanced organized PVP is bad IMO.

If not, people wouldnt mount up and would get into the fight, which happens only in very few cases. Now Blizzard is trying to throw a bone to the few people that want world PVP in MoP, but they dont realize that by doing so, they are making the community a worse place, because you will end up with a lot of people in bad humor in the game or with people blatantly closing the game and going to do something else just because someone decided its fun to gank/camp comeone that celarly doesnt want to fight back and Blizzard gives the camper the tools to do so.

That, to me, is bad design, when you have tools to put that peolpe into an environment where everyone goes to PVP and the "confronting parties" are balanced in the meaning that they at least have the same amount of players.

[Twotonsteak]

Would you say about 4 years? Yknow, when LFD came in and having to NOT BE AN ASS to people to get your groups made was no longer needed? Anyone claiming LFD did no harm to communities either didn't play or wasn't a part of the community beforehand (or were the asses?). Whether it's worse than transfers, I disagree but that is at least up for debate.

The previous method forced people to get along. LFD meant you were no longer responsible for your actions, and so naturally people act like idiots.

There have been trade-chat trolls and general a-holes for as long as trade-chat existed. Maybe not as many but, hey, how many a-holes do you need before trade-chat loses it's purpose? I mean I started playing during BC and trade-chat has a-holes then. After all you didn't HAVE to pug in trade. If you had a good guild you could run with them and still be an a-hole in trade. (And Barrens chat was so infamous for being bad during vanilla and BC that it's been noted in machinima.)

[dercaderca]

This is wrong. having entire guidls doing Karazhan for 2 years without being able to move on was one of the worst designs Blizzard has ever done in ANY of their games.

It was one of the greatest failures of the gaming industry. It waxsnt a motivator, it was just lame.

If people were stuck in Kara that's where they belonged. Their group hit the skill wall, plain and simple. Whether it was poor leading or just bad players, that's where they belonged until they could improve enough to move on, that's what the game is about, getting better and progressing, not being spoon fed everything.

That was also the cause of guild hopping. I won't say it wasn't there, but their was a reason for it. People got into guilds, got geared up, and once they figured out they were being held back they went to a guild with a skill level more close to their own. This was because of unskilled players and raid leaders, not Blizzards raid model. Why continue to carry a guild on your back only to clear kara every week and be the only person putting in some effort when you could join one closer to your own skill level?

[Twotonsteak]

Except if you want to create an environment where people want to get along, you have to cater to the fact people are assholes. It's a fact of life. You can't defend it going "oh well it's human nature" when the last system for the most part prevented that behaviour from becoming widespread.

To use an analogy, a relative of mine keeps birds. Now you don't just keep them in open air the entire time and if they fly away go "oh it's just their nature" you keep them in a closed environment/cage when you aren't around.

So you feel it's Blizzards fault that some people are dicks? I'd offer up that no matter what Blizzard does some people will just be dicks. That's life. People were dicks in trade during BC. People were dicks in trade during the first half of Wrath (before LFD was released). The only thing LFD (and, later, LFR) did was allow the dicks to be even bigger dicks. Sorry but in the grand scheme of things...a dick is still a dick.

Now I'm not saying that LFD is flawless. I have my (many) issues with the system. Many of those issues have yet to be resolved. However I recognize it as a tool that I chose to use. And that is the greatest flaw in any argument against the LFD. No one is making you use it. If you don't like it then form a guild group. If you can't form a guild group then try to fill out the group with "friends" from the game. If that doesn't work then you can wait a little longer or pug.

[xindykawai]

rudeness toward other player, the fact they can get away with basically anything...

[Fagatronics]

I didnt say TBC was a failure or lame, i said TBC easly raiding schedule was a failure and lame.

I agree that raiding was a bit wonky with the 10/25 man raids, Attunements, and lack of catch up initially. Blizz tried to adjust this mid and late into the expansion as well as they could. But considering the amount of people who weren't able to raid in vanilla and got their first taste in TBC, I think that made it successful even with all of it's faults.

It was so lame, and such a failure, that attunements were retired within the same expansion, catch up mechanism were introduced, and they completely change the design into Wrath.

All the designs that came after that, were better designs that stopped encouraging the stealing of players form other guilds.

Blizz recognized their mistakes, yes. Did they stop poaching, more so yes. But not all designs after it were better. Just look at the next expansion with wrath. Naxx 2.0 was a failure and trashed the legacy of a once prestigious raid. Deathknights broke pvp and pve for half the expansion. And the introduction of making old raids insignificant after a new one comes out.

And if design gets better, raids should get better too, right? I doubt you would find many people who would say they enjoyed Naxx 2.0, ToC, DS, or even Firelands more than Karazhan.

I'm pretty sure Paragon felt really accomplished at beating Ragnaros H after 500 attempts, and i'm pretty sure killing LK H felt like a good accomplishment, so no, accomplishment and satisfaction were not taken out of raiding, satisfaction might have been taken out of people that enjoy when others fail at doing something, but i dont think content should be designed for that people anyway.

Enjoy when others fail? Are you projecting there? Yes there have been harder fights and better fights since TBC. But I said fights are either too easy or too hard nowadays. Let's use your Firelands example. Most heroics raiders thought the first 6/7 bosses were a faceroll. Then when they hit Ragnaros, it was Mt Everest. That's good game design to you? 6/7 of the hardest content WoW offers being easy and the last boss should be near impossible.