Someone explain taxes to me

[Tinykong]

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

The 16th Amendment's pretty darned clear. It's not dependent on "interpretation"; it explicitly states that Congress can tax incomes.

As for the legitimacy of Amendments to begin with, Article 5 of the Constitution is what explicitly allows for it.

The only people arguing that the Constitution doesn't allow for income taxes are grossly ignorant as to what the Constitution actually says, and are attacking that document, not defending it.

People's sticking point is that income hasn't always been defined as profits derived from labor and capital (as defined above) and that the Supreme Court has used that definition because it's in the government's best interest to keep taxing wages. Remember, I prefaced this by saying it's borderline conspiracy theory.

[Purlina]

Since the Supreme Court get's to decide what's constitutional why does it matter? Even if it was ruled un-constitutional, all they need to do is pass another amendment...

[Tinykong]

"From whatever source derived".

Wages are clearly defined as "income" under tax law. Those people simply do not understand the basic terminology they're arguing about. And it doesn't matter anyway, since the only people who get to decide what the Constitution really means is the Supreme Court, and they've been clear about the 16th.

I don't agree with the thinking, I was just offering it as an example of what some people think about taxes.

Call me cynical, but I wouldn't be surprised if tax law was written specifically to include a wages, which at the time may or may not have intended money earned from labor, and that the Surpreme Court later upheld it because it's in the government's best interest. Wouldn't be the first time the government was being self serving. :shrug:

[Endus]

People's sticking point is that income hasn't always been defined as profits derived from labor and capital (as defined above) and that the Supreme Court has used that definition because it's in the government's best interest to keep taxing wages. Remember, I prefaced this by saying it's borderline conspiracy theory.

And the point is, that's the Supreme Court's Constitutional duty, to do so.

You can dislike the Supreme Court's decision, and campaign to have them revisit the issue, but if you're claiming that it's not legitimate, you're anti-Constitutional and anti-American, and need to be honest about that rather than hiding under a false flag of patriotism.

Edit: I know you're not supporting it, I'm just delivering an attack on those who do, since they tend to try and act as if they're the patriotic "true Americans" while attacking the very Constitution they claim to be "defending".

[Reeve]

I don't agree with the thinking, I was just offering it as an example of what some people think about taxes.

Call me cynical, but I wouldn't be surprised if tax law was written specifically to include a wages, which at the time may or may not have intended money earned from labor, and that the Surpreme Court later upheld it because it's in the government's best interest. Wouldn't be the first time the government was being self serving. :shrug:

It's possible, but it's irrelevant, since we designed the system to let SCOTUS make those calls.

[Tinykong]

And the point is, that's the Supreme Court's Constitutional duty, to do so.

You can dislike the Supreme Court's decision, and campaign to have them revisit the issue, but if you're claiming that it's not legitimate, you're anti-Constitutional and anti-American, and need to be honest about that rather than hiding under a false flag of patriotism.

Edit: I know you're not supporting it, I'm just delivering an attack on those who do, since they tend to try and act as if they're the patriotic "true Americans" while attacking the very Constitution they claim to be "defending".

A lot of these people call themselves "Tax Patriots," which is kind of ironic.

[Nicola]

Ugh, never knew taxes in US were so stupidly complicated, and is being argued about so much... Hurray for not having to care about taxes <3

[Tinykong]

Ugh, never knew taxes in US were so stupidly complicated, and is being argued about so much... Hurray for not having to care about taxes <3

Our tax code is beyond complex, I doubt there is anyone who really understands it completely.

[Reeve]

Our tax code is beyond complex, I doubt there is anyone who really understands it completely.

Eh, the part of it that I need to understand in order to file my taxes properly is pretty simple. But then I don't have enough possible deductions to total more than the standard deduction, which really simplifies things.

[Tinykong]

Eh, the part of it that I need to understand in order to file my taxes properly is pretty simple. But then I don't have enough possible deductions to total more than the standard deduction, which really simplifies things.

If you use the standard deduction, you can probably fill out the forms in less than 15 minutes.

If you don't...hope you like word puzzles and logic games. My parents itemize, and their tax packets look like a home mortgage application.

[Fugus]

My grandfather is a self-made man. He was born to a poor family in a poor neighborhood with 5 siblings, an absentee father, and a drunkard mother. He went on to graduate high school, which was not that common in his neighborhood, joined the Navy, fought in the Korean War, and went to college on the GI Bill. Got himself a job in chemical sales, eventually opened up his own chemical company and retired with a few million dollars, which he was able to invest well.

He worked his ass off to get where he did, but even he will tell you that he didn't get there without a lot of luck.

I consider myself extremely lucky to have been brought up by good parents who themselves had a middle class/upper middle class upbringing. I've benefited in my own knowledge/education from their knowledge/education. I think it was a lot easier to learn when I had a college educated father who wasn't afraid to answer any of my questions and help me work through the answers. I've also benefited by having a mother who knows business and has taught me how to present myself in the business community. She continues to advise me well to this day.

Then your grandfather is the definition of what we should be able to achieve with hard work and I applaud and respect him for it. I also am glad he admits luck played a large part of it as well.

But you also have to pay attention to what taxes he paid then compared to what taxes they get away with paying now and looking at what was considered minimum wage then compared to what we make now. If minimum wage paid as little then compared to what it does now after inflation and if the taxes were setup the same and if jobs out there refused to hire Americans so much and the ones they did hire they hired at part time with below adequate wage while sending much of their jobs overseas and all this other crap, how much harder do you think he would have had it and how far do you think he would have been able to rise?

But overall, your grandfather has every right to call himself a self made man more than any billionaire I have ever seen on television and definitely more than any actor or athlete who won a job in the entertainment lottery and you should proud too.

[Reeve]

Then your grandfather is the definition of what we should be able to achieve with hard work and I applaud and respect him for it. I also am glad he admits luck played a large part of it as well.

But you also have to pay attention to what taxes he paid then compared to what taxes they get away with paying now and looking at what was considered minimum wage then compared to what we make now. If minimum wage paid as little then compared to what it does now after inflation and if the taxes were setup the same and if jobs out there refused to hire Americans so much and the ones they did hire they hired at part time with below adequate wage while sending much of their jobs overseas and all this other crap, how much harder do you think he would have had it and how far do you think he would have been able to rise?

But overall, your grandfather has every right to call himself a self made man more than any billionaire I have ever seen on television and definitely more than any actor or athlete who won a job in the entertainment lottery and you should proud too.

Given the specifics of his story, he probably would have still been able to get into sales and be successful, but it's much harder to start up a new chemical company today than it was in the 70's, as his children discovered. I think he probably would have been able to go from poor to middle class, and maybe upper middle class, but he probably never would have been wealthy in today's world.

[Fugus]

Given the specifics of his story, he probably would have still been able to get into sales and be successful, but it's much harder to start up a new chemical company today than it was in the 70's, as his children discovered. I think he probably would have been able to go from poor to middle class, and maybe upper middle class, but he probably never would have been wealthy in today's world.

Maybe, but you also have to take into account that the wages haven't kept pace with inflation since 1981 and making the wages we consider decent now would barely considered minimum wage back then. I figure the Navy and GI Bill would both be doable. The job in chemicals would be a duel with the devil though as most now require previous experience and none want to hire and even interning can be hard as hell to get as an option, have even seen an intern position before that required a masters degree to even start as an intern a while back, it has just gotten insane unless he did chemicals while in the Navy. But assuming he got in, he would probably get paid decent, less than he would have gotten back then, but decent.

Overall, I would say he would have gotten up to middle class, upper middle class if he got lucky, but any attempts he made at opening his own business would have been torpedoed with the huge price and amount of paperwork it would take to open one in this day and age, creating a huge barrier of entry, along with the established players doing everything legal and otherwise to make sure he stayed a small player at best while they attempted to crush him. Could see him just starting and getting sued into bankruptcy over some patent infringement case for something he is working with that had a patented applied for 9 years prior by a troll company but they delayed its approval till 3 weeks ago waiting for someone to actually use it or many of the processes requiring stuff that stuff that a company has patented and only license it out at steep prices.

[Raldazzar]

I have an offtopic question to the OP..

Can you live on that? comfortably? I'm making no assumptions or judgements so please dont see it as rude, but you didnt mention any other income. is that your only come per month? and if you do manage to live on that, that's amazing.

I'm on around £1900 a month after tax and I'm struggling to make ends meet!!

[Kujako]

I'm on around £1900 a month after tax and I'm struggling to make ends meet!!

As am I at more then twice what you make. It's all relative. Frankly, the only difference I can find between lower and middle class is the amount of debt involved. Sure, if I make it to 65 and retire I'll be well off. But till then its pay check to pay check with the constant threat of losing my house.

[Sunshine]

It makes a huge difference where you live -- cities are expensive, especially cities which tend to have housing competition and wealthy inhabitants (like San Francisco).

There are some really interesting lists and statistics if you look around (like this and this).

[Deleted]

I have an offtopic question to the OP..

Can you live on that? comfortably? I'm making no assumptions or judgements so please dont see it as rude, but you didnt mention any other income. is that your only come per month? and if you do manage to live on that, that's amazing.

I'm on around £1900 a month after tax and I'm struggling to make ends meet!!

I earn about £700 a month less than you after tax and I have disposable income coming out of my arse, especially since I quit drinking and smoking before christmas.

[Nayelie]

I have an offtopic question to the OP..

Can you live on that? comfortably? I'm making no assumptions or judgements so please dont see it as rude, but you didnt mention any other income. is that your only come per month? and if you do manage to live on that, that's amazing.

I'm on around £1900 a month after tax and I'm struggling to make ends meet!!

I actually have two other jobs as well, but the one I mentioned is my personal main source of income. But I still get help from my parents when it comes to rent and a couple of other bills.

[Reeve]

Maybe, but you also have to take into account that the wages haven't kept pace with inflation since 1981 and making the wages we consider decent now would barely considered minimum wage back then. I figure the Navy and GI Bill would both be doable. The job in chemicals would be a duel with the devil though as most now require previous experience and none want to hire and even interning can be hard as hell to get as an option, have even seen an intern position before that required a masters degree to even start as an intern a while back, it has just gotten insane unless he did chemicals while in the Navy. But assuming he got in, he would probably get paid decent, less than he would have gotten back then, but decent.

Overall, I would say he would have gotten up to middle class, upper middle class if he got lucky, but any attempts he made at opening his own business would have been torpedoed with the huge price and amount of paperwork it would take to open one in this day and age, creating a huge barrier of entry, along with the established players doing everything legal and otherwise to make sure he stayed a small player at best while they attempted to crush him. Could see him just starting and getting sued into bankruptcy over some patent infringement case for something he is working with that had a patented applied for 9 years prior by a troll company but they delayed its approval till 3 weeks ago waiting for someone to actually use it or many of the processes requiring stuff that stuff that a company has patented and only license it out at steep prices.

Chemical sales is still a very lucrative career, and doesn't require as much experience as you might think. You might want to start in a lower tier of sales job first to prove you have what it takes, but after that, they'll definitely take you and then it's just sink or swim. I have 2 uncles in chemical sales now who do very well for themselves (upper middle class). One of them attempted to open his own chemical company, failed for many of the reasons you mentioned, and went back to sales. I also have an aunt who attempted to open her own company after a chemical sales career, failed, and got hired on as the president of a large chemical company and is now solidly upper class (though she got herself an MBA too. Helps to already come from a middle class+ background).

It's not impossible to make your way these days, but you're right that it's not as easy as it once was, and I think probably requires more luck than it once did.

[Raldazzar]

It makes a huge difference where you live -- cities are expensive, especially cities which tend to have housing competition and wealthy inhabitants (like San Francisco).

There are some really interesting lists and statistics if you look around (like this and this).

Interesting reading!

I earn about £700 a month less than you after tax and I have disposable income coming out of my arse, especially since I quit drinking and smoking before christmas.

I live down south :P I get reamed on almost everything bill wise. the flat I had when i lived up north (st helens way) was 325/month and bigger then now.. where I pay 800/month

I actually have two other jobs as well, but the one I mentioned is my personal main source of income. But I still get help from my parents when it comes to rent and a couple of other bills.

ah ok, as I said, I didnt mean to be rude or owt, I was just curious to the median sort of living costs :0