Two target cleave in 5.2 - Assassination vs Combat

[shadowboy]

The slower gameplay is why I feel the cost to blade flurry shouldn't be energy. A slight reduction in physical damage done while BF is on would give you the cost you need to be sure you don't ever use it for single target, but won't affect the pacing of the spec.

[Kael]

You do lose SOME IP proces cause when you switch targets, DP is not always instantly applied. And yes Redirect is for CP management, but also lets you get back on the main target, which will more then likely benefit from more debuffs. I am not saying multi dotting is not a dps gain, its not a 25% dps increase.

For a lot of top end rogues, vw and rupture only makes up about 12-15% or so of your single target dps. The energy gain is not going to add another 10% dps from the extra 90 energy or so you will get. Overall your probably getting about 16-18% dps gain from 2 target multi dotting. AKA the same or less then 40% bf with a lot more work.

Some, specifically, is 1, unless you target swap poorly and allow DP to drop on one of your targets. Note that you can target-swap just to auto-attack and reapply DP. SimC should be able to do the math for how much of a damage increase this is, although Aldriana stated that at 40% Combat will still be ahead of mut on two-target cleave, I haven't seen the math yet and I'm not ready to condemn or confirm which would be ahead for exactly two targets. If your assumption (that an 18% gain is to be had from assassination) it should match combat exactly. Don't forget that having DP up on a second target is a DPS increase for both specs, although assassination should have an easier time keeping it up on both, and I generally assume combat rogues who are using flurry stick to one target.

That it's "easier" to toggle BF doesn't mean that it will either be ideal or that rogues will prefer it; if the damage is close or even exactly the same, a rogue with better assassination weapons would be ahead in assassination over combat, etc. I don't think we're talking about people being compelled to play assassination for cleave, but combat will no longer be mandatory regardless of gear.

[Verain]

Some, specifically, is 1, unless you target swap poorly and allow DP to drop on one of your targets. Note that you can target-swap just to auto-attack and reapply DP.

And can do this when you have low energy and CPs on the other target. Note that if this actually matters, you'll pull a stunt like this:

You have rupture and deadly poison on target A and target B. Because this is a raid you care about, your macros might work on target and focus, or based on explicit mob names. You build to five combo points and, say, three anticipation charges on A. You change target to B. You then press your envenom-focus macro, which casts envenom at target A. Your combo points should now be on B, and now you can build up to rupture or envenom B. It's certainly more effort.

Your damage doesn't just come from the energy, as has been pointed out, you are also multidotting here.

I generally assume combat rogues who are using flurry stick to one target.

Probably true, but there's often dps being left on the floor unless you switch and at least put up expose armor on the second target (depending on your comp). Still, most of the time I expect you are correct.

I don't think we're talking about people being compelled to play assassination for cleave, but combat will no longer be mandatory regardless of gear.

I would hope combat would be better on two targets. Being better doesn't make it mandatory, especially if you have better A than C weapons. But if it isn't, I'm sure it would be WAY better on, say, five targets.

Also note- S has a rather powerful rupture, and will likely also benefit from multidotting on two targets.

[Chult]

And can do this when you have low energy and CPs on the other target. Note that if this actually matters, you'll pull a stunt like this:

You have rupture and deadly poison on target A and target B. Because this is a raid you care about, your macros might work on target and focus, or based on explicit mob names. You build to five combo points and, say, three anticipation charges on A. You change target to B. You then press your envenom-focus macro, which casts envenom at target A. Your combo points should now be on B, and now you can build up to rupture or envenom B. It's certainly more effort.

Your damage doesn't just come from the energy, as has been pointed out, you are also multidotting here.

Probably true, but there's often dps being left on the floor unless you switch and at least put up expose armor on the second target (depending on your comp). Still, most of the time I expect you are correct.

Combat's mirrored damage is based on the initial target's applications. If it wasn't, one could still cleave Garalon for 100% extra damage while on the leg, no? Even if that weren't true, swapping to throw up Expose would lose Poison and melee damage, and would likely be a wash or outweighed.

[Kael]

Combat's mirrored damage is based on the initial target's applications. If it wasn't, one could still cleave Garalon for 100% extra damage while on the leg, no? Even if that weren't true, swapping to throw up Expose would lose Poison and melee damage, and would likely be a wash or outweighed.

Swapping won't cost you any melee damage (unless you mean from the other special you would've used with the energy? I presumed auto-attack), and if there are other physicals taking a swing at it you'll get more damage out of it (but that really shouldn't happen very often). I'm away from the game atm but the flurry damage is easily tested on a dummy; SS to 5 CP and evis with flurry on. See if the # matches exactly. RvS/Expose Armor to 5 CP, eviscerate. See if the numbers still match, and if auto-attacks are hitting for the same amount.

On a sidenote, you're NOT losing poison damage to put up deadly on a second target. This is a DPS gain. Not the first time I've seen this comment made, and I don't understand where it's coming from.

[Verain]

Well, I think it depends on how long the second target lives for. If you put deadly on target B and target C, and then go back to A, you've given up two deadly-procs on A. Deadly needs to actually TICK on B and C to be a gain, right?

[Lathar1an]

On 1on1 target fights assassination will always be the king.On 2 target fight i think assassination will be better than combat in 5.2 patch.Combat will be better in 3+ target fights

[Verain]

On 1on1 target fights assassination will always be the king.On 2 target fight i think assassination will be better than combat in 5.2 patch.Combat will be better in 3+ target fights

This is based on...?

[Sesshou]

This is based on...?

Clearly his experience with all 3 specs on at least the last 3 tiers where assassination was the single target king.

Oh wait, until 5.0 it was the weakest for over a year...

[Linneth]

Quick question regarding Blade Flurry on the PTR:

Have they improved Blade Flurry radius or is it going to be a positional nightmare to hit 5 targets?

[Mazius]

Have they improved Blade Flurry radius or is it going to be a positional nightmare to hit 5 targets?

Nothing changed here, same 5 yds.

[Linneth]

Nothing changed here, same 5 yds.

Let's hope it's just an oversight then.

[Wow]

Quick question regarding Blade Flurry on the PTR:

Have they improved Blade Flurry radius or is it going to be a positional nightmare to hit 5 targets?

There was a few builds they made its range 8-10yards but only cleave in front of you. In the last few builds its gone back to 360 degree cleave but live range.... It was pretty terrible to try and use either. I don't know why they just haven't made it 8-10y 360 cleave and be done with it. I have a feeling it will most likely go live with the terrible range.

[Deleted]

in patch 5.2 4target cleave

Infracted: spam

[Deleted]

Just to clear out any misunderstandings, there are very few scenarios where rolling a rupture on a secondary target improves your single target damage, and almost all are rng. The reason is that generally, the energy you spend building cp's and throwing that rupture costs more than you get out of it via VW.

Now it is a very efficient damage, which is why it's worth multi-dotting with it. But if a fight requires single target damage above anything else (think protectors), it's generally not advisable.

About combat vs mut in a cleave scenario, combat has one major advantage: you can use CDs with it in a much more meaningful way. I imagine AR+SB with BF hitting 1+4 targets is a sight truly to behold. And then you pop KS and watch the damage go even further. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only rogue that wished Mut's CDs offered better support to it's cleave/aoe rotation, for example on Windlord. SB kind of helps in keeping rupture rolling on multiple targets via its increased CP generation. But the auto-attack dmg from SB doesn't really do anything, and I won't even go into Vendetta helping AOE.

In regard to BF's range, I haven't really been testing its functionality in the PTR. But I do know that back in Cata and on live, BF has no particular range, but rather depends on the hitbox of your targets. If you can SS the target, you'll cleave it via BF from another target as well.