Shaman and Warlocks should have a 4th spec too?

[Unholyground]

I only see 2 classes that make sense and 1 is a hunter without a pet, and shaman being a tank. Other then that none of it makes sense without breaking the game. It hard enough to balance specs as it is.



Please do tell me how well Elemental Blast works in PvP.

? The balancing issue comes up a lot, but guess what, nothing will ever be balanced it is IMPOSSIBLE stop making that argument, the only way it would ever be balanced is if there was 1 class and 1 ability, then people would bitch about lag. More choices = more fun, PvP is not and never was the focus of WoW you can even ask the developers, that is why you don't see 30+ BG's and ass loads of PvP related questing.

[akon]

there is already a game out there called Rift with these things and trust me, although i love it very much and im playing it atm i always feel wierd when my Tempest( warrior caster) Swings his 2hand axe to do chain lighting from 30m

Shamans should be able to tank as much paladins should be able to range dps with holly dmg, nothing more nothing less imo.
The true challenge is how blizz or even us can tell a talent tree to fit inside the primary tree (as feral has both dps and tank in 1 tree) and not mess up with the talents.Finally imo it will be just a too much effort for something not that extraordinary if u consider that there are way too many problems need to be solved.

P.S The thing with the elements u mentioned is really good I love things like that.....GOGO CAPTAIN PLANET!!!!!

[Cheesedanish]

Warrior: Blademaster (2h tank spec with active mitigation)
Death Knight: Necromancy (spell damage)
Druid: Guadian (tank, done already)
Shaman: Earth Warden (tank spec)
Hunter: Pathfinder (healing spec, uses pet to assist players and tanks)
Priest: Prophet (holy damage caster)
Warlock: Dark Apotheosis (tank spec using a new demon designed specifically for the task)
Mage: Wizardry (healing spec using all 3 elements)
Monk: Spirit Bender (stance of the red crane, spell damage)
Paladin: Zealotry (ranged plate caster)
Rogue: Deception (tanking spec, uses special abilities and poisons to make hallucinations that get attacked instead of the rogue, and high dodge and parry)

PS if you noticed this also removes the so called "hybrid tax" issue

Mage heal spec should be chrono-mage... work kind of like a disc priest to duplicate the playstyle and have another preventative focused healer... create time bubbles around players to send the next x damage forward/back in time by a short amount to negate the damage... direct heals 'revert time to remove x damage'. raid cooldown could be basically monk stagger - slow time across the group spreading damage taken over x seconds. could also have a inverted atonement style thing where your damage 'steals time' reducing outgoing damage or something.

[Unholyground]

Mage heal spec should be chrono-mage... work kind of like a disc priest to duplicate the playstyle and have another preventative focused healer... create time bubbles around players to send the next x damage forward/back in time by a short amount to negate the damage... direct heals 'revert time to remove x damage'. raid cooldown could be basically monk stagger - slow time across the group spreading damage taken over x seconds. could also have a inverted atonement style thing where your damage 'steals time' reducing outgoing damage or something.

I was just throwing a name there, the Chrono Shifting one sound cool.

[Goldfingaz]

? The balancing issue comes up a lot, but guess what, nothing will ever be balanced it is IMPOSSIBLE stop making that argument

While I agree that it will never truly be balanced, you can't use that excuse to throw the game even more off target. Bringing the game as close to balanced as possible is a great thing, however making the balance worse than it already is, is a terrible thing.

We can hope to achieve near balance (again). However, hoping for something that will further tip the scales and hurting the game even more so, simply because "This sounds cool!" isn't a good idea nor good design.

Lots of things sound like great ideas, but in the end if that idea only hurts the product you're trying to improve on, it isn't a good idea.

The argument about this making the game even more unbalanced is a valid reason to not want it.

[Ryve]

Well if feels kinda wierd that we have Rockbiter weapon that increases threat. But we can't tank

What's weird about it? The fact that they don't want only tank classes to have tools to kite adds when performing other roles?

Do you know what else is weird? Warriors can throw things, even though they no longer have a ranged slot. I propose a new ranged warrior spec, where they will be armed with rocks. Just think of all the value that would add. Heavy throw, overpowering throw, pummeling rocks, Recklesslythrowstuff, heroic leapawayandthrowmorestuff. Heroic and shattering throw would have to be removed from all other specs, mind.

Mages can auto-shoot with their wands. Perhaps a fourth spec that doesn't use magic from any known schools, nor reliant on cooldowns, or secondary stats. Just give them 7 different wand attacks that all deal the exact same amount of damage, have the same cast time, and their DPS is scaled with each tier around being 7% higher than the next best class.

You know, because it makes complete sense to base an entire spec around the fact that they have one ability. I also find the "shaman don't use earth" thing to be clutching at straws. All of the specs use combinations of elements, because that's what shaman in this game are about. If you assign each spec to an element, you're going to start locking down the range of their abilities in every role.

[Unholyground]

While I agree that it will never truly be balanced, you can't use that excuse to throw the game even more off target. Bringing the game as close to balanced as possible is a great thing, however making the balance worse than it already is, is a terrible thing.

We can hope to achieve near balance (again). However, hoping for something that will further tip the scales and hurting the game even more so, simply because "This sounds cool!" isn't a good idea nor good design.

Lots of things sound like great ideas, but in the end if that idea only hurts the product you're trying to improve on, it isn't a good idea.

The argument about this making the game even more unbalanced is a valid reason to not want it.

There's still a great lack of choice in the game as fun as it is. Making a 4th spec would breathe new life into all the classes. What is the major gripe people have with this idea? I can't imagine it would stem from the majority which is PvE oriented could it?

[Goldfingaz]

There's still a great lack of choice in the game as fun as it is. Making a 4th spec would breathe new life into all the classes. What is the major gripe people have with this idea? I can't imagine it would stem from the majority which is PvE oriented could it?

You aren't adding any extra choice to the game. There are already options available for these rolls. We don't need 6 different tank classes, 6+ healers to choose from either.

Also, to not get the idea behind balancing issues form a PvE perspective, you may not be looking at the bigger picture and just what you want. Maybe Rift might be the game for you as it has all of these options?

[Aldoran]

Shamans - probably, warlocks - lolno

[Unholyground]

You aren't adding any extra choice to the game. There are already options available for these rolls. We don't need 6 different tank classes, 6+ healers to choose from either.

Also, to not get the idea behind balancing issues form a PvE perspective, you may not be looking at the bigger picture and just what you want. Maybe Rift might be the game for you as it has all of these options?

The big picture is important, everyone wants a perfect state of balance or close to it. They have a choice, add a new spec for all the classes or another new class. either way it will be a balancing act. I vote for alternate specs for the classes that already exist because it would give more options and make them more fun.

[Deleted]

You make some very good points there.

Shaman quite literally have no Earth part of them at all.


And Dark Apothosis basically makes you a Demon hunter, so why not have it as a full specc?

[Goldfingaz]

The big picture is important, everyone wants a perfect state of balance or close to it. They have a choice, add a new spec for all the classes or another new class. either way it will be a balancing act. I vote for alternate specs for the classes that already exist because it would give more options and make them more fun.

Why do they have a choice between adding new a new class or adding more specs? Where does this decision come from? From the illusion that we need these things for an expansion? It isn't necessary at all and only further hurts the came.

To be honest, I believe we have enough classes and specs, Blizzard shouldn't waste time developing a new class or new specs and creating brand new spells for them. They should be focusing on fixing the current class/spec issues rather than adding more problems to the pile.

We do not need a new class or spec every expansion, and in my opinion, we have more than enough as it is.

[A dot Ham]

Druids have 4th spec because they had a DPS and a tanking spec in a single tree. A good argument, but what about Shaman and Warlocks? Shaman tanking threads pop up numerous times on the Shaman forums here on MMOC, and they pop up numerous times on the official forums. Warlocks have almost an entirely 4th spec with Dark Apotheosis, which makes adding another spec for them seemingly a no-brainer.

At one time, Shaman were a tank on the same level as Protection Paladins and Bear Druids in vanilla. In fact, Shaman were originally the opposite of Paladins. Both classes were supposed to be mirrors of each other, with Shaman being horde-only and Paladins being alliance-only. However, Blizzard eventually reduced Shaman's capability to tank, and reduced Shaman tanking ability over the course of subsequent expansions. Along with this reduction came the slow loss of the Shaman tanking abilities and talents. I definitely feel that Blizzard's decision to grant Paladins and Shaman to both factions, and make Shaman and Paladin completely different classes was a good idea. However, dismantling Shaman tanking was a pretty bad idea, and has led to some pretty wonky class design ever since.

Shaman are masters of the four elements (earth, fire, wind, water), yet only 3 elements are fully represented. Elemental is fire, Enhancement is wind, and Restoration is water. This is backed by their dominant abilities, Ascendant forms, and weapon imbues. There is no Earth spec because Earth represents defense and protection. Its a pretty silly omission, but it makes sense given the 3 spec limit. 4 specs would flesh out all the elements, and make Shaman a more complete class.

Finally, there's quite a few abilities in the Shaman toolkit that just seem out of place. The biggest example of this is Rockbiter weapon. This is the only weapon imbue that has no clear purpose. Flametongue is the Elemental primary imbue (and the secondary imbue for Enhance). Windfury is the primary Enhance imbue. Earth Living is the primary imbue for Restoration. Frostbrand is the PvP imbue. Rockbiter? You supposedly use it in the rare case of saving the healer from death or something... Rockbiter even has a taunt when it is unleashed, and the talent Unleashed Fury reduces damage by a further 40%. A great utility that most Shaman never use.

The case for a Warlock 4th spec is even easier to make. Again DA is pretty much a separate Warlock spec wrapped up entirely in a glyph. DA not only gives the Warlock unique stats, it also gives them unique abilities as well. Abilities that can only be activated by using the glyph. Blizzard however decided that glyphs shouldn't determine a tank spec. A good decision, but then why not just give locks a 4th spec so that Warlocks could tank, and the traditional DPS specs could be preserved? It's a win-win for everyone involved. It certainly helps that DA is reminiscent of Dreadlords from WC3, which is cool in its own right. I would hate to see DA's uniqueness get destroyed in the next expansion because Blizzard can't do anything with it because of the 3 spec system.

If we can't have all classes getting 4th spec due to balance reasons, we should at least consider 4th specs for classes that need them the most. That would be Shaman and Warlocks.

While I think your specifics may be a little off base. I don't that adding a 4th spec to ALL classes is a bad idea. It would be a cool way to add some variety to the game... without having to create an entirely new class. It would also be a good way to add unique spells that the community/developers have as ideas that may or may not have been good fits for any current spec.

[Deleted]

Why do they have a choice between adding new a new class or adding more specs? Where does this decision come from? From the illusion that we need these things for an expansion? It isn't necessary at all and only further hurts the came.

To be honest, I believe we have enough classes and specs, Blizzard shouldn't waste time developing a new class or new specs and creating brand new spells for them. They should be focusing on fixing the current class/spec issues rather than adding more problems to the pile.

We do not need a new class or spec every expansion, and in my opinion, we have more than enough as it is.

Because thats a greatway to innovate and lead the way in an expansion right?

"We're letting the classes stagnate, just so we can fix why mages are whining they can't blow people up in one"

Here is a hint, WoW is plenty balanced, people just whine they can't win all the time.

[Goldfingaz]

Because thats a greatway to innovate and lead the way in an expansion right?

"We're letting the classes stagnate, just so we can fix why mages are whining they can't blow people up in one"

Here is a hint, WoW is plenty balanced, people just whine they can't win all the time.

What classes/specs did BC add to the game? What classes/specs did Cataclysm add to the game?

I mean BC did allow Shamans for Alliance and Paladins for the Horde, but they weren't new classes.

[Socialhealer]

shamans need a tank spec, so ele and enha can get some baseline survival tools from a tank spec shaman.

like how feral druids get shit like guardian does, bear form survival instincts etc. i want some op tank shaman survival baseline shit for me ele so 1 melee doesn't blow it up in 5 secs.

[Deleted]

What classes/specs did BC add to the game? What classes/specs did Cataclysm add to the game?

I mean BC did allow Shamans for Alliance and Paladins for the Horde, but they weren't new classes.

Now new classes, but they were opened up dramatically. BC also invented the modern three specs, where previously "Hybrid" usually meant Tank or Healer only.

What OP and alot of people want is the existing classes to be "Opened up" more with 4th specs.

[Goldfingaz]

Now new classes, but they were opened up dramatically. BC also invented the modern three specs, where previously "Hybrid" usually meant Tank or Healer only.

What OP and alot of people want is the existing classes to be "Opened up" more with 4th specs.

They can't even "Open up" the classes as it is because of huge balancing issues.

Such as, but never limited to:

Elemental Shaman, Shadow Priest, Boomkin, Retribution Paladins, Unholy Deathknights, Arms Warriors, Assassination Rogues and Combat Rogues.

Those are 8 specs which are under performing in their roles compared to other specs/classes of the same roles.

However you want to add more options because of what exactly? Blizzard should be focusing on class balance and not adding in more things that will just cause more problems.

[Teriz]

shamans need a tank spec, so ele and enha can get some baseline survival tools from a tank spec shaman.

like how feral druids get shit like guardian does, bear form survival instincts etc. i want some op tank shaman survival baseline shit for me ele so 1 melee doesn't blow it up in 5 secs.

That's a good point. Tanking specs give DPS specs numerous survival tools to better round out the spec. For example, shaman have lacked a reliable stun ability. If they had a tanking spec they would get that ability because the tank would need such an ability.

[Unholyground]

Why do they have a choice between adding new a new class or adding more specs? Where does this decision come from? From the illusion that we need these things for an expansion? It isn't necessary at all and only further hurts the came.

To be honest, I believe we have enough classes and specs, Blizzard shouldn't waste time developing a new class or new specs and creating brand new spells for them. They should be focusing on fixing the current class/spec issues rather than adding more problems to the pile.

We do not need a new class or spec every expansion, and in my opinion, we have more than enough as it is.

No they probably won't add a new class every expansion, this is why I think they should do a 4th spec as a big change, most of the specs would fit fluidly into the game. You also forget adding more healing and tanking specs to classes that can only DPS will open many people up to trying that role and broadening their experience in WoW, that is how you innovate a game like this with an issue where people are too scared to pick those roles.