Disc Vs Holy 5.2

[HPLathus]

Weird, I thought you don't like taking things too personally. Seems you are doing just that

Anyway, Lathus doesn't represent all holy priests. I'm an example of one who disagrees with him. I don't think holy is tougher to master than disc or vice versa, its just different. I think you'll automatically be better at what you enjoy more. For you, holy is obviously not the right spec. That's not to say we never use holy words, while its true Sanctuary isn't doing so hot right now, I use Serenity a lot even in raids environment (and certainly in 5 man).

Anyway, arguing that holy is interesting or not is irrelevant, since there are like, what, 5 people worldwide playing the spec? LOL (laughing at myself here :P)

I never said I represent ALL holy priests. But I'm sure as hell gonna defend the spec on these forums with a bunch of discs preaching how holy plays when they haven't even touched it.

I guarantee there's more then 5 priests playing holy, in fact I know most 25 mans have at least 1 holy at all times from what I have seen.

---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 10:43 PM ----------

Its not about quoting, I for one don't do much of it either, but you seem to miss (intentionally? maybe it's reading on your phone) parts of the points others make or misread them.

For example the point about Disc and Holy having different amounts of reagen if they were to gear the same. Nobody said they have the same amount, but that is exactly what you imply. Instead Cookie and others brought up the point that Disc and Holy would not have the same amount of spirit if played well. Holy has to keep an eye on their spirit to keep it high enough, Disc needs less spirit, but they have to keep an eye on it to find the right balance, because they (should) need these statpoints elsewhere. Disc struggles with on sudden demand healing and will hit its HpS ceiling easily - Holy has a much higher ceiling but has to keep an eye on mana if they heal for more than they can sustain.

True Disc has numbers that are a bit high right now, since many encounters this tier favor that spec and all those mechanic changes made the deffs overbuff it when it appear to be to weak (which it was in the begining). But a larger part of problem is the way logs work.
In the past it was resonable to look at effective healing and overhealing and seeing exessive overhealing as something that should be changed if mana was a problem - nowadays people belive all overhealing is bad and wasted - which it is not, playing with no overheal is indicative of taking more risks now that there is no downranking anymore. Today we have a substantial amount of absorbs going around from several healing classes. Looking at effetive ApS and HpS versus overheal and exspired absorbs as is still done by the logs is just as bad as just neglecting all absorbs. Both are misleading. The way our logs work all healing buffer and all overheal due to lack of fitting heals/absorbs (like downranking) is wrongly distributed to the healing portion ("overheal") even if it should be distributed almost evenly between heals and absorbs.

If you search for potential to negate extra damage, you will mostly find it in the "overheal" portion of the logs.

I edited my post saying I read it wrong

[Blachshma]

How do you know? Just because some holy priests/other classes jumped the boat to disc when it got OP? Those are not disc priests, those are fotm players.

I play disc for 3 expansions, and I played it in the start of cata and I played it pretty much any time its been at least close to holy. I will play it in 5.2 as well as much as its possible without gimping my raid - and you will not hear me complaining that I have to play holy. And I play it because, for me, it is fun. I dont give a shit about being hard, there is nothing especially hard about pushing some buttons in a video game. I do harder things irl, I'm sure it's not a limited intellect that keeps me from playing holy. And I find it insulting when somebody puts me in the same box with all the fotm re-rollers. So what should I do, stop playing or reroll when my specc is OP?

But you dont get this. You dont get the fact that some ppl just dont like holy. Not because it's too hard, but because it is an extremely passive style that makes my brain feel like a dragging snail. It's slow. You find it fun to count drops on your mana bar, I dont. I find it fun to spend as much of it without getting into trouble. I like the fact that I can actively do something about my mana, and being better at that gives me more mana to spend, instead of just piling spirit on my gear and counting my spells. You think that just because disc got a truckload of buffs, all the ppl playing it are just freeloaders that do it because it's a free IWIN button. Noway could a normally skilled person just choose to play disc out of their free will.


Holy cds:
- lightwell - 3 mins
- DH - 3 mins
- GS - 3 mins
- chakra- 30 seconds
- coh - 6/8 seconds
- holy words
- serendipity - not a cd, but it has a duration to track, needs 2 casts to max. When you got it, you use it, because if you dont, you'll just waste it, and there is no loss in using it.

Disc cds:
- holy fire - 10 seconds
- evangelism - not a cd, but same as serendipity, its a duration to track. Needs 5 casts. Using it to only continue smiting or not casting heals for the duration of archangel is a loss
- penance - 10 sec cd
- rapture 12 seconds. WS - 15 seconds, grace-15 seconds, aegis- 15 seconds, pws - 15 seconds.
- archangel - 30 seconds cd
- spirit shell 1 min cd
- barrier- 3 mins cd
- PS- 3 mins cd

Evidently I didn't list common cds like cascade and pom, which both speccs have. You count how much cds each specc has to manage.



That is your personal opinion. Just because the specc is overbuffed right now and a lot of windowlickers do fine with it by spamming one button doesn't mean the specc is easy. It's just broken by stupid buffs. I had to re-learn to play disc every expansion so far, it felt like a new class every time. Holy didn't change that much really.
How hard is it to just say they are different and not judge one to be "easier" than other? why the need to say yours is harder? does it make you feel smarter or why?



I think you meant "holy priest" there, or your statements dont make sense.

I totally disagree with the holy being passive comment. For some, disc is passive. You pop PW:S and forget about it until your rapture proc and just pop it again when the debuff is gone. You're popping SS to completely ignore/avoid incoming raid damage where holy can't do that, they need to actively react to the damage after its hit. I'm not saying one is better than the other, more fun, more challenging, etc. I don't play those kind of games cause I find them silly, nobody's going to change nobody's opinion.

That said, calling holy a passive spec, coming from a disc priest, feels a bit weird.

[Noradin]

"Reactive" might be a besser word than "passive".

[Blachshma]

I never said I represent ALL holy priests. But I'm sure as hell gonna defend the spec on these forums with a bunch of discs preaching how holy plays when they haven't even touched it.

I guarantee there's more then 5 priests playing holy, in fact I know most 25 mans have at least 1 holy at all times from what I have seen.

---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 10:43 PM ----------



I edited my post saying I read it wrong

Hey look, I love my spec, I'll defend it against anyone. But I don't feel the need to bash disc at the same time, its not what we should do, you know? And let's face it, our beloved spec has seen better days, much better days. Its fun now, yes, but also very frustrating. I don't like Chakra, I don't like our mana regen (kinda jealous of disc priests who have rapture), I don't like the fact we are only regarded as raid healers and have nothing special to offer as far as utility or tank healing. But that's the things we should address, not "holy is harder and more fun than disc bwuhahaha I win". Its comparing apples to oranges, and that's pointless, you get what I'm saying?

[Sakamae]

Last I checked this thread was about the changes to healing priest specs in 5.2, not mudslinging name calling because someone is theoretically "bigger" than the other. None of your comments about log rankings as holy or disc in 5.1 matter. People don't care when your guild started killing bosses or how awesome you are because you took the hard progression path. Over two and half pages of crap to wade through in what should be an informative thread, nice job guys. Whether you "think" someone should play the game one way over another is irrelevant, because they pay to do what they want. You've only succeeded in making yourselves look like a bunch of fools.

I came to the thread hoping someone had some PTR boss feedback on how the different specs were shaping up with the latest changes. More specifically I was curious about the crit->bubble change. Anyone been doing PTR testing that can give some insight?

[Blachshma]

"Reactive" might be a besser word than "passive".

True, but reactive is hardly passive. There is more risk in healing than in absorb, and that's a fact, not an opinion. Absorbs will stop the damage from coming, healing will come after the damage is there, and the person is at the risk of dying if I don't react quickly. I'm not saying planning ahead as disc is not challenging. Heck, I bet its pretty rewarding getting the most out of your absorbs, cds, etc. There is a reason why so many disc priests love their spec - they find it fun, I can't and won't disrespect that. Personally I don't hate disc, but holy just feels like home to me. However, I work hard to keep my raid alive, so I don't like to be called a passive healer, that's simply false.

[Deleted]

Goodluck raiding as holy in 5.2 with 11k spirit. I don't see that happening at all.

Gems are about 10 gold a piece on my server:P, I'll be using way more than 11k on the fights I spec holy, especially since I'll use the spec on fights where heavy healing is required (I'm already running with a few stacks of gems in my bags as disc, I simply adjust my spirit a bit based on the fight/whom I'm healing with).

Last I checked this thread was about the changes to healing priest specs in 5.2, not mudslinging name calling because someone is theoretically "bigger" than the other. None of your comments about log rankings as holy or disc in 5.1 matter. People don't care when your guild started killing bosses or how awesome you are because you took the hard progression path. Over two and half pages of crap to wade through in what should be an informative thread, nice job guys. Whether you "think" someone should play the game one way over another is irrelevant, because they pay to do what they want. You've only succeeded in making yourselves look like a bunch of fools.

I came to the thread hoping someone had some PTR boss feedback on how the different specs were shaping up with the latest changes. More specifically I was curious about the crit->bubble change. Anyone been doing PTR testing that can give some insight?

Some would say that you look a bit like a fool asking a question that has been answered about 20 times already, but since I'm a nice guy I'll just direct you to the most in-depth discussion for this instead: http://www.howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3013 , you could also check out Adinne's blog: http://www.healadinne.com/HealNotes/...implified.html or take a look in the 70 page long thread about priest 5.2 changes (here on mmo-champ).

[HPLathus]

I'm not bashing disc, I even said how I play the spec.

What I was pointing out is holy has a harder learning curve then disc does

---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 10:57 PM ----------

Gems are about 10 gold a piece on my server:P, I'll be using way more than 11k on the fights I spec holy (I'm already running with a few stacks of gems in my bags as disc, I simply adjust it a bit based on the fight/whom I'm healing with).

I'm too cheap for that >_>

---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 10:58 PM ----------

Plus, I think in 5.2 disc and holy will be close enough where I won't really need to be disc unless its a gimmick dps fight.

[Deleted]

I think holy will overall superior in 5.2, but currently I simply enjoy disc more, might not necessarily be true if I end up being forced to spam atonement 90% of the time though.

[HPLathus]

I don't think superior, I just think disc priests will have to find the new groove in how they heal and become truley effective with the slaughterhouse of changes.

[Deleted]

Weird, I thought you don't like taking things too personally. Seems you are doing just that

Anyway, Lathus doesn't represent all holy priests. I'm an example of one who disagrees with him. I don't think holy is tougher to master than disc or vice versa, its just different. I think you'll automatically be better at what you enjoy more. For you, holy is obviously not the right spec. That's not to say we never use holy words, while its true Sanctuary isn't doing so hot right now, I use Serenity a lot even in raids environment (and certainly in 5 man).

Anyway, arguing that holy is interesting or not is irrelevant, since there are like, what, 5 people worldwide playing the spec? LOL (laughing at myself here :P)

I'd like to say that I'm that objective, but I'm really not . I'm just human, and sometimes it's hard to not slip the irony a bit.
Without extending this judgement to the entire holy priest community, I've had my share of crap from various ones over the time. For me, priests seemed to divide in 3 large groups: diehard holy, diehard disc and those that played both without much of a fuss, even if they bent towards one or the other more or less.

The diehard discs usually pissed me off with constant whining that "disc is the absorb healer, we need more shields". I deeply dislike that approach and I've been told that I'm obviously more fit to be holy because of this. For me, all healers are..healers. We heal, aka make green numbers and each of us has a special flavour - that should not be the vast majority of our output, because its inevitable to cause unbalance. Recently, there's a new branch forming - the diehard atonement ones. For them, casting anything outside atonement spells is a waste of time. They claim they are doing triage because atonement is smart, and there is no other way they could help the raid better. I dont disagree atonement is as smart as an automatic spell can be, but it's not really triage from my pov.

The diehard holy usually hate disc, with a passion. They usually play happily other healers as alts, but they hate disc. They tend to prefer raidhealing and despise anything outside producing pure numbers. They call themselves "pure output healers". Back in the good old times of ICC, I got recruited by this good guild as a disc priest. They did have another priest, but he wouldn't touch disc with a 10 feet pole, calling it brainless and retarded. Could have also had something to do that he was proudly wielding a legendary mace. When cata got close, knowing the numbers of disc on the beta, I announced I will most likely be switching to holy (I had played disc for half of wrath, and holy for the other plus tbc). I instantly got called a fotm reroller that jumps ship whenever my specc isn't retarded OP, also told that blizzard doesn't release broken healers so I'm just ranting for nothing. So I stayed disc. It was painful, but I guess it created a special relation of "for better and for worse for me". It's also prolly why I'm prone to defending it. Yes, it is OP atm, and ppl seem to think its always been like this. Not many of those saying it though really played it for 3-4 years continuously. Disc is prolly the specc that went through the most drastic changes: from the pure tank healer in the start in wrath, to the shield spamming in icc, to the more balanced approach in cata, turning now towards a hybrid dmg/healer thing. Sometimes for me it feels like I haven't been playing the same class all this time.

And then there's those that play either specc, and are just priests. Not disc, not holy, just priests. I have one of these in my guild now, hes a great guy. I've always known him as holy, but in my guild he played disc, and he's great at it. He's happy to be a good healer, and he doesnt care in which specc.

I really dislike extremes. I admit I'll play disc if given the choice, but I never hated holy. For me, they are just different. But most ppl usually label it as braindead, or at best "easier". The reason why I prefer disc is the flexibility (for me the whole chakra separation is artificial) and the dps part (though I'm not an atonement only fan).

As for the holy words I never said they are never used, just barely used. My view might also be skewed by the fact I'm playing 25 mans. Me being disc means that if there is any tank healing to be done, I'll do it, not the holy priest, so she doesn't really use serenity.

I totally disagree with the holy being passive comment. For some, disc is passive. You pop PW:S and forget about it until your rapture proc and just pop it again when the debuff is gone. You're popping SS to completely ignore/avoid incoming raid damage where holy can't do that, they need to actively react to the damage after its hit. I'm not saying one is better than the other, more fun, more challenging, etc. I don't play those kind of games cause I find them silly, nobody's going to change nobody's opinion.

That said, calling holy a passive spec, coming from a disc priest, feels a bit weird.

Errr.... PWS and then forget? PWS is not a rapture tool only. I use it on more than the tank, and either way, PWS is not my only spell. I am always casting as disc, I am gcd capped. I also raid 25 mans, and spirit shell does not avoid all incoming dmg there. I've got another disc priest for a couple of weeks and the the extra SS is significant but even the 2 of us together cant cover all the dmg in 25 man hcs.
The whole passive comment was regarding mana regen mechanics: sure you can say rapture is a fire and forget thing, but you still need to choose a target for that shield to break (and with 2 discs its not always easy to find) and you still need to watch that rapture cd. If you ignore it, your regen will suck. As holy, you dont have that choice. The only thing you can do for your regen is to not cast when its not absolutely needed. You cant regen more, so your only choice is to spend less.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I agree with you, its apples and oranges. But I am an aggressive healer and holy just cant give that kick to me, it feels ...soft. I never cared too much about the game of mana conserving, I like to make a lot of it and spend a lot of it.

[Blachshma]

I'm not bashing disc, I even said how I play the spec.

What I was pointing out is holy has a harder learning curve then disc does

---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 10:57 PM ----------



I'm too cheap for that >_>

---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 10:58 PM ----------

Plus, I think in 5.2 disc and holy will be close enough where I won't really need to be disc unless its a gimmick dps fight.

Do you trust that you master disc AND holy at the top maximum level that you are viable enough to make the claim that holy is a tougher spec to master? because, quite frankly, I don't feel I master either spec to its fullest - there is always room for improvement, especially as far as timing is concerned, and both specs have quite a bit of that. So, personally, I don't think I'm in position to say which spec is tougher to master. Maybe a priest who is ranked on all fights on both specs can make that decision.

[HPLathus]

You forgot the holy priests who play both specs willingly but bitch about knowing disc is better on a certain fight.{me}

Like amber shaper, if that debuff don't exist ~_~

[vanityking]

I think the people who say holy is terrible it's because they were disc and switched to holy for whatever reason and switched back. Holy is much less forgiving should you mess up or overheal, disc has lots of room for mistakes and overhealing.

[HPLathus]

Do you trust that you master disc AND holy at the top maximum level that you are viable enough to make the claim that holy is a tougher spec to master? because, quite frankly, I don't feel I master either spec to its fullest - there is always room for improvement, especially as far as timing is concerned, and both specs have quite a bit of that. So, personally, I don't think I'm in position to say which spec is tougher to master. Maybe a priest who is ranked on all fights on both specs can make that decision.

I know I'm a better hot priest then disc, but I also know I'm a very good disc priest. I try to master each
Spec based on encounter, there are obvious reasons of switching depending on the fight.

Would I say I've mastered holy, I think I have. Disc? No exacty but I considers self a damn good disc as well.


Which is why I wish people would understand I'm not bashing disc, at all. I respect disc priests but not ones that discredit holy. It's like insulting my soul on some levels.

[Blachshma]

I'd like to say that I'm that objective, but I'm really not . I'm just human, and sometimes it's hard to not slip the irony a bit.
Without extending this judgement to the entire holy priest community, I've had my share of crap from various ones over the time. For me, priests seemed to divide in 3 large groups: diehard holy, diehard disc and those that played both without much of a fuss, even if they bent towards one or the other more or less.

The diehard discs usually pissed me off with constant whining that "disc is the absorb healer, we need more shields". I deeply dislike that approach and I've been told that I'm obviously more fit to be holy because of this. For me, all healers are..healers. We heal, aka make green numbers and each of us has a special flavour - that should not be the vast majority of our output, because its inevitable to cause unbalance. Recently, there's a new branch forming - the diehard atonement ones. For them, casting anything outside atonement spells is a waste of time. They claim they are doing triage because atonement is smart, and there is no other way they could help the raid better. I dont disagree atonement is as smart as an automatic spell can be, but it's not really triage from my pov.

The diehard holy usually hate disc, with a passion. They usually play happily other healers as alts, but they hate disc. They tend to prefer raidhealing and despise anything outside producing pure numbers. They call themselves "pure output healers". Back in the good old times of ICC, I got recruited by this good guild as a disc priest. They did have another priest, but he wouldn't touch disc with a 10 feet pole, calling it brainless and retarded. Could have also had something to do that he was proudly wielding a legendary mace. When cata got close, knowing the numbers of disc on the beta, I announced I will most likely be switching to holy (I had played disc for half of wrath, and holy for the other plus tbc). I instantly got called a fotm reroller that jumps ship whenever my specc isn't retarded OP, also told that blizzard doesn't release broken healers so I'm just ranting for nothing. So I stayed disc. It was painful, but I guess it created a special relation of "for better and for worse for me". It's also prolly why I'm prone to defending it. Yes, it is OP atm, and ppl seem to think its always been like this. Not many of those saying it though really played it for 3-4 years continuously. Disc is prolly the specc that went through the most drastic changes: from the pure tank healer in the start in wrath, to the shield spamming in icc, to the more balanced approach in cata, turning now towards a hybrid dmg/healer thing. Sometimes for me it feels like I haven't been playing the same class all this time.

And then there's those that play either specc, and are just priests. Not disc, not holy, just priests. I have one of these in my guild now, hes a great guy. I've always known him as holy, but in my guild he played disc, and he's great at it. He's happy to be a good healer, and he doesnt care in which specc.

I really dislike extremes. I admit I'll play disc if given the choice, but I never hated holy. For me, they are just different. But most ppl usually label it as braindead, or at best "easier". The reason why I prefer disc is the flexibility (for me the whole chakra separation is artificial) and the dps part (though I'm not an atonement only fan).

As for the holy words I never said they are never used, just barely used. My view might also be skewed by the fact I'm playing 25 mans. Me being disc means that if there is any tank healing to be done, I'll do it, not the holy priest, so she doesn't really use serenity.

Thanks for the reply

I can't really speak for all the priests, I can only speak for myself so I'll say this:

I think holy priests (diehard or not) have hated discs quite a bit due to mostly jealousy. For a long time now (most of Cata + MoP) disc has not only outperformed holy in PvE, it was also THE healing spec for PvP. That's not to say holy was unplayable at both, but disc deffo got more love from Blizzard and holy didn't really get a chance to shine. Right now many disc priests cry about their state on PvP, and that pisses off holy priests even more - they go like "how dare they cry about PvP when they are THIS OP on PvE?". Its frustration, but I think it should not be aimed at the spec or the people playing it. Some priests are so stubborn of their spec they sometimes forget to see what they're defending. I mean, if you defend holy, then defend holy, don't bash disc - its pointless. That is where holy priests don't behave to my liking. Now, as holy, I do want to get my chance to shine, I do want some refreshing changes to my spec, I do want to top meters and get my spotlight (isn't everyone?), but I would focus on my spec, which I find enjoyable and challenging enough to play. Is it the most challenging? I don't know, I don't care, its challenging enough for me and that's what counts.

As for disc priests, some disc priests were downright mean to holy priests telling them they are jerks for not respeccing (I got this quite a few times in this forum). Kinda makes me feel bad because I'm not a great disc priest, and its not my natural spec of choice, so what do I do? I don't feel I'm slowing my raid with progression, but maybe I am? Kinda makes me doubt myself, which is bad.

I do hope holy is nice for 5.2. I don't need it to be the best (Which it won't) and I don't even need it to be better than disc (which it probably won't be as well). All I need is for it to be OK. I'll handle the frustration with spec changes until Blizzard fixes them

---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 11:29 PM ----------

I know I'm a better hot priest then disc, but I also know I'm a very good disc priest. I try to master each
Spec based on encounter, there are obvious reasons of switching depending on the fight.

Would I say I've mastered holy, I think I have. Disc? No exacty but I considers self a damn good disc as well.


Which is why I wish people would understand I'm not bashing disc, at all. I respect disc priests but not ones that discredit holy. It's like insulting my soul on some levels.

But I don't think they did discredit holy (or maybe they did and I'm just naive). Why would anyone discredit a healer? We are doing a sacred job :P

[nobodysbaby]

Stop it and take a breath, we need to unite not to be completly overrun by paladins now:P I've been nagging about Hpalas mastery since MoP hit. Since they went on so hard on Discs absorbs (auto PoH DA I am thinking of), and Disc are to me THE absorb healer, even if it went overboard with SS+PoH DA, they really should do something about Paladins absorbs now. Looking at % done by Illuminated Healing, now that is something we really can call "brainless" if anything;P

Racking down at Disc for favouring mastery too much, smoothing out values, good! But it should apply to Paladins aswell.

PS; Both Disc and Holy looks same'ish in HPS judging by the AoE intensive PTR tries. Would bug me still if Disc have the same output as Holy, but way on the top is the Hpala with top healing done by mastery. From the meters they show Pala was ahead of the rest by 20k hps (102) vs 82k hps (Hpri), 80k hps (Disc).

So gogo bug them instead!

[Deleted]

Great post Blachshma, you just added yourself to my list of "nice holy priests". I really wish I'd see more of that kind of thinking.

And I heard about the whole respeccing thing >.<. I have a holy priest in my guild, we didn't ask her to respecc, but she felt she had to. She was pretty terrible at it (yes, it is actually possible to suck as disc) and all of us could see she's better playing her own specc. She's a good holy priest. I keep joking that she will have to carry me in 5.2 .

I wish this topic would have been about ppl sharing their experience on ptr and on what fights one specc will be more suited than the other. I was actually watching the forums tonight in hope for some info on the 25 man testing, since the whole atonement thing isn't encouraging for that format. I had more time to play in beta, didn't get a lot for PTR and I'm not sure if I should go to LFR some and dust up those holy skills. I'll surely give disc a try, I just dont think atonement and a couple of PWS will cut it in 25 mans.

[ramennoodleking]

So that whole shizzle about the difficulty of LW was just something theoretical? Since you never actually do it? Do you know of any priest using it unglyphed successfully?

For the record, I dont believe holy is balanced around optimal use of lightwell, just like prayer of healing isn't balanced around hitting 5 targets. I'm also yet to see a single priest this expansion using it unglyphed. Right now, I would hardly call Lightwell (or better said Lightspring) a raid cd, its a stupid hot that breaks on dmg, and basically just some passive healing for holy priests.

Of course you dont see people using Lightwell, Disc has flooded the market. No need for it at the moment, and shocker, lightspring is much easier to use. Lightwell existed before lightspring, you know. I can give you tons of logs that make excellent use of Lightwell, including rank 2 and 3 parses on Mawmaw and Halfus, as well as something in the teens on heroic Al'akir. Also many fights in firelands and DS.

Lightwell hasn't changed since Cata; lightspring was added to supplement because so many people complained about how difficult it was to get used. Fact is, if it weren't for disc being overpowered atm, I would have made use of Lightwell. I suspect this will make a return in my guild during 5.2.

---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 12:09 AM ----------

With picture perfect rapture usage, yes the disc has slightly more regen in this case (but not a huge difference), which largely is offset my PW:S mana cost. However the playstyle, spell usage, costs and output is different and requires different amounts of mana (you obviously have to use PW:S way more as disc, and it's damn expensive), for me it'd also not be a difference of 10 vs 13k, I'm currently using just below 9k as disc (and I'd definitely play with 13k as holy), mainly because (outside of PW:S) I find myself using slightly more expensive spells as holy. For me that doesn't feel very different regen wise (and well, it isn't).

Slightly more regen? What rock have you been under? In 5.1 rapture is 200% and benefits from spirit buffs, the amount of mana gain is actually quite significant. 5.2 this changes, of course, but it's still a net gain. Further, PW:S heals and procs Borrowed Time, so the mana invested is more than worth it. Holy, on the other hand, gets jack shit for casting something like, say, CoH. Or anything for that matter. Again, arguing because you don't want to admit you are wrong.

Do you actually believe that my "case" ever was that disc and holy had equal regen at equal amounts of spirit (since this is the only thing you've "proven wrong")? That's actually kinda offending, and very ignorant:P. Also you should probably let me explain what my opinion/argument is, if you decide what my arguments are, for me, it's hard to have a discussion in the first place.

At this poin I'm convinced you are just arguing to hear yourself speak. If you recognized from the beginning that disc had a mana regen advantage (which is does), then you should have left my comment alone because you agreed with it.

From what I can see blizzard aren't balancing the game around people not using spells (the auto attack damage of different classes are actually very different!) nor around complete ignorance of things around you (excluding lfr). But if you despite that happen to be in a guild with mute and dumb people (I doubt lightwell is your biggest issue then), go ahead and glyph it. A glyphed lightspring is far closer to lightwells maximum potential than a PW:B without any coordination.

But the issue here isn't geared towards mute and dumb raiders. It's geared toward progression. As a holy priest in 5.1 of course I didn't use Lightwell, because those situations were better fit for me being disc. And in my progression oriented guild, stacking for a barrier (PW:B or nullification barrier or force and verve) is not very difficult because there's always a set stack point. However, Lightwell IS harder because dps and heals have to continue what they are doing while finding the tiny Lightwell, pray to sargeras that it Ian covered by the bosses hit box, and click it. All while maintaining their dps.

I believe I've been more than reasonable on my assertions that 5.1 Disc vs Holy, holy has less mana and theoretically more Lightwell management, assuming you just don't go disc because it is currently overpowered.

5.2 still leaves disc with more mana regen, albeit a lot less.

[Rivellana]

PS; Both Disc and Holy looks same'ish in HPS judging by the AoE intensive PTR tries. Would bug me still if Disc have the same output as Holy, but way on the top is the Hpala with top healing done by mastery. From the meters they show Pala was ahead of the rest by 20k hps (102) vs 82k hps (Hpri), 80k hps (Disc).

I haven't been to this section of the forums for a few days as I was taking a small break from the game awaiting 5.2 but I wanted to decide which spec I want to play when the patch hits and I haven't had a chance to dig around looking for PTR raid numbers. Basically I just wanted to say thanks for putting these here, it's hard digging through so many pages of other stuff trying to find specific information. :P

Considering that's how much higher in HPS that mistweavers were before 5.1 and how much higher disc priests have been before 5.2, I wonder if they'll leave holy paladins like that until 5.3 or put some sort of hotfix in before that.