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  1. #1001
    The Lightbringer Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
    It has nothing to do with trying to sound good. There is no REASON for rape. There is no JUSTIFICATION for rape. You and Sorr have been trying to give reasons that would motivate someone to rape, reasons such as having too much testosterone or being too in the heat of moment to realize the person has said no. These aren't reasons or justifications. They are cop outs for people who will rape no matter what. Trying to delve into the mind of someone who will rape you either way is absolutely pointless. Trying to convince people that they had a reason is disgusting.
    The problem here is with that kind of reasoning you can't have any kind of constructive discussion. It reminds me of people centuries ago that wouldn't acknowledge the Earth might be round because they though even thinking such things was against god's divine will. That's just stupid. If I'm trying to say that there can be "motivations" for rape other than "domination" and "misogyny" then I'm certainly not saying rape is ok or that it's justified because it might be A: hormones or B: mommy issues. I'm just advancing possible theories that might advance our understanding as a whole and the fact people can refuse that in bulk and act like you're some kind of witch because you even though of might possibly go through the mind of rapist is akin to people refusing to consider the Earth was round just cause they thought there was no point in thinking about it and to think about it all was somehow wrong and meant you were evil.
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  2. #1002
    Stood in the Fire Kadil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Heh no THIS is what i HATE. This stereotype that it;s all power. There can be many reasons a man might go insane. NOT just power. You have NO IDEA how powerful a TRULY suppressed male sex drive CAN be.

    It obviously varies and most men never will but there are at LEAST some cases where it comes down to essentially hormonal override of reason. I am NOT saying it is right i AM however saying it is all about power is a lie that makes it easier to try and see things a certain way.
    Don't need to be insane to rape someone, poor excuse.

    I have no idea about suppressed male sex drives? Excuse me, do you know me from someplace? Or perhaps from my one previous post in this thread you were able to know everything about me....

    I'm a man. I work as a commercial diver, sometimes when I work abroad I spend 5-6 months away from home. A typical day for me would be 4 hours in the water, 4 hours in a pressurised chamber, 4 hours back in the water, 4 hours back in the chamber. In the 2 rest breaks I get I still have to find time to eat, wash, sleep etc. Do this for 5 months and then spend 1 month in a decompression chamber, all the while surrounded only by other men and my interests don't flow that way. When I get back home do my urges make me rape my wife if she's not in the mood? No.
    But since you know all about repressed sex drives perhaps you're not as experienced as you might think? Maybe you should find yourself a girlfriend or, failing that, a blow-up doll, we wouldn't want you turning into a rapist now would we? Wouldn't want you to be controlled by your superior testosterone.

    No means no. Stop means stop. Rape is rape. Those are all black and white. Those who don't stop are only using the victim as a means to an end, they are controlling the victim for their own purposes. There is no little lie to try and see things in a certain way.
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  3. #1003
    Elemental Lord Reg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    The problem here is with that kind of reasoning you can't have any kind of constructive discussion. It reminds me of people centuries ago that wouldn't acknowledge the Earth might be round because they though even thinking such things was against god's divine will. That's just stupid. If I'm trying to say that there can be "motivations" for rape other than "domination" and "misogyny" then I'm certainly not saying rape is ok or that it's justified because it might be A: hormones or B: mommy issues. I'm just advancing possible theories that might advance our understanding as a whole and the fact people can refuse that in bulk and act like you're some kind of witch because you even though of might possibly go through the mind of rapist is akin to people refusing to consider the Earth was round just cause they thought there was no point in thinking about it and to think about it all was somehow wrong and meant you were evil.
    You analogy falls completely flat simply because following your train of thought, science can prove there is reason behind rape. It can't and there isn't. Rape is a moral choice. Get over it. There is no constructive discussion.

  4. #1004
    The Lightbringer Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decklan View Post
    I think you missed the entire point of his post. He's never justified rape and I don't really see where you're getting that. I think he finds issue with other people trying to shift any blame off on the woman... i.e. "Women shouldn't put themselves in the situation where they turn a man on then say no because his hormones might take over!"

    I can think of ZERO circumstances where blame can be shifted onto the woman, except in cases where no rape occurred and it's a false accusation... which isn't even a rape in the first place, and are incredibly rare circumstances.

    I see two sides of this discussion. Neither side is "justifying" rape. One side is putting the sole responsibility on the man, while the other is trying to argue that blame can in part be shifted onto the woman. Or am I getting that wrong?
    Ya you're getting it wrong. He's said time and time again that because I didn't buy into his rape is always about "domination" and "misogyny" but might also be about Y and Z that, not only was I a rapist but what I said condoned rape. It's like listening to a religious zealot five hundred years ago. It's ridiculous and because he won't even try to think about the problem, so it makes me think he only says shit like that because he think it sounds good.
    Last edited by Arganis; 2013-02-12 at 12:34 AM.
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  5. #1005
    Just going to throw a few statistics out there:

    Males are about 8 times as likely as females to commit violent crimes.
    Black folks are about 7 times as likely as white folks to commit violent crimes.

    So, if you cross the street when you see a man up ahead, but you think it's racist to cross the street when you see a black person up ahead, you got some 'splainin' to do.

    Also, men are about 20% more likely than women to be the victims of violent crime. Additionally, blacks are about 20% more likely than whites to be the victims of violent crime.

    So, if you're a white female, you're less likely to be victimized than white males, or black people of either gender.

    (All data taken from UCR, NCVS and Census.)
    Last edited by Solo66; 2013-02-12 at 12:31 AM.

  6. #1006
    The Lightbringer Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
    You analogy falls completely flat simply because following your train of thought, science can prove there is reason behind rape. It can't and there isn't. Rape is a moral choice. Get over it. There is no constructive discussion.
    That's where you're wrong and you show your ignorance. Ever hear of psychology, psychiatry? Those are sciences and they've proved many things through deduction and analysis. But nothing I say will make you change your mind because you're just like Endus.
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  7. #1007
    Quote Originally Posted by Solo66 View Post
    Just going to throw a few statistics out there:

    Males are about 9 times as likely as females to commit violent crimes.
    Black folks are about 6 times as likely as white folks to commit violent crimes.

    So, if you cross the street when you see a man up ahead, you're only slightly less sexist than the person who crosses the street when they see a black person up ahead is racist.

    Also, men are about 20% more likely than women to be the victims of violent crime. (And if you were curious, blacks are about 20% more likely than whites to be the victims of violent crime.)

    So, if you're a white female, you're less likely to be victimized than white males, or black people of either gender.
    and yet 9 out of 10 rape victims are female, and every female in the US has a 1 in 6 chance of being raped in her life.

  8. #1008
    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    Really annoys me when women have these ridiculous preconceptions about men.
    This this needs to be quoted, society has been doing that to women for years. And though I'm not saying you personally don't realize it, I think people need to realize preconceptions stabs both sides of parties.

    Though it's stupid to think all men will rape you, men have preconceived notions that all women are sluts or less capable in the work place.

  9. #1009
    Elemental Lord Reg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    That's where you're wrong and you show your ignorance. Ever hear of psychology, psychiatry? Those are sciences and they've proved many things through deduction and analysis. But nothing I say will make you change your mind because you're just like Endus.
    Psychology and Psychiatry are social sciences which are completely different. The most brilliant psychologists still don't have reasons for the way the mind works, so trying to arbitrarily say there are reasons in a rapists mind that to him are justifiable is ridiculous.

  10. #1010
    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    That's where you're wrong and you show your ignorance. Ever hear of psychology, psychiatry? Those are sciences and they've proved many things through deduction and analysis. But nothing I say will make you change your mind because you're just like Endus.
    "All these views share a common misconception: they all assume that the offender's behavior is primarily motivated by sexual desire and that rape is directed toward gratifying only this sexual need. Quite to the contrary, careful clinical study of offenders reveals that rape is in fact serving primarily nonsexual needs. It is the sexual expression of power and anger. Forcible sexual assault is motivated more by retaliatory and compensatory motives than by sexual ones. Rape is a pseudosexual act, complex and multidetermined, but addressing issues of hostility (anger) and control (power) more than passion (sexuality). To regard rape as an expression of sexual desire is not only an inaccurate notion but also an insidious assumption, for it results in the shifting of the responsibility for the offense in large part from the offender onto the victim: if the assailant is sexually aroused and is directing these impulses toward the victim, then it must be that she has deliberately or inadvertently stimulated or aroused this desire in him through her actions, style of dress, or some such feature"

    Page 2

    http://www.questia.com/read/10036678...f-the-offender


    "Most experts believe the primary cause of rape is an aggressive desire to dominate the victim rather than an attempt to achieve sexual fulfillment. They consider rape an act of violence rather than principally a sexual encounter. Research states that some men do not ejaculate during rape. This proves that whatever is driving this section of men to rape is more than the sexual drive."


    http://www.youthkiawaaz.com/2010/01/...dliest-sinner/



    Rape is usually not about sex at all according to psychology.

  11. #1011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    To people who were onboard with this whole "better safe than sorry" mentality about avoiding men (Tiili specifically). Do you feel the same towards other women?
    Why would I feel like that towards other women? I'm 156 cm and weigh 46 kg, most men are like 25-40 cm taller than me and like double my weight unless they're the skinny types. Other women are usually not anywhere close to that much bigger than me as men are.

    It's not like I avoid men all the time, I avoid men when I'm alone out when it's dark.
    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    Are you just nervous around other people in general or does it have to specifically be a man. What about lesbians?
    I'm always nervous around people I don't know. I don't avoid other women on the other hand, they're not that likely to be able to just overpower me completely due to size difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    What about feminine guys?
    Feminine guys as in? They're still likely to be bigger than me and probably stronger.
    Last edited by mmoc506e44f6eb; 2013-02-12 at 12:41 AM.

  12. #1012
    The Lightbringer Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
    Psychology and Psychiatry are social sciences which are completely different. The most brilliant psychologists still don't have reasons for the way the mind works, so trying to arbitrarily say there are reasons in a rapists mind that to him are justifiable is ridiculous.
    Nobody ever talked about anything being "justifiable" at least I didn't. So don't go branding me for things I didn't do. Psychiatry isn't a social science pal. Nobody will ever have the complete explanation about anything, not even in physics, but that's not a reason not to try because if you don't try you can't progress. I'm sorry but if truly think what I'm saying is ridiculous then you're just a fool and deluded fool at that.
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  13. #1013
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    So... there's basically two sides to the argument at this point, both of which fundamentally agree on every single point, except the one where we believe that in some cases, men cannot consciously decide to stop themselves from committing a rape, and the other argues that man can stop themselves from committing rape, but choose not to.

    I think there's nothing to really prove or disprove either side. I personally believe that anyone could control themselves and just subconsciously would choose not to. Neither really matters though. You cannot argue insanity to plead rape in the third degree, vs premeditated rape in the first degree. That distinction simply doesn't exist, nor should it.
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  14. #1014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    "All these views share a common misconception: they all assume that the offender's behavior is primarily motivated by sexual desire and that rape is directed toward gratifying only this sexual need. Quite to the contrary, careful clinical study of offenders reveals that rape is in fact serving primarily nonsexual needs. It is the sexual expression of power and anger. Forcible sexual assault is motivated more by retaliatory and compensatory motives than by sexual ones. Rape is a pseudosexual act, complex and multidetermined, but addressing issues of hostility (anger) and control (power) more than passion (sexuality). To regard rape as an expression of sexual desire is not only an inaccurate notion but also an insidious assumption, for it results in the shifting of the responsibility for the offense in large part from the offender onto the victim: if the assailant is sexually aroused and is directing these impulses toward the victim, then it must be that she has deliberately or inadvertently stimulated or aroused this desire in him through her actions, style of dress, or some such feature"

    Page 2

    http://www.questia.com/read/10036678...f-the-offender


    "Most experts believe the primary cause of rape is an aggressive desire to dominate the victim rather than an attempt to achieve sexual fulfillment. They consider rape an act of violence rather than principally a sexual encounter. Research states that some men do not ejaculate during rape. This proves that whatever is driving this section of men to rape is more than the sexual drive."


    http://www.youthkiawaaz.com/2010/01/...dliest-sinner/



    Rape is usually not about sex at all according to psychology.
    That's great and I respect that but to me no science is finite, that's the very nature of science. If you were tying to prove I was wrong and back up Regennis & Co though, then you did a piss poor job of it because with people like Regennis and Endus those studies wouldn't even exist, hell they're saying that to even think about the subject is wrong and somehow condones rape. It's what they're saying that's simply ridiculous.
    Last edited by Arganis; 2013-02-12 at 12:56 AM.
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  15. #1015
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    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    and yet 9 out of 10 rape victims are female, and every female in the US has a 1 in 6 chance of being raped in her life.
    Women are also more likely to report rape than a man is. Women do probably get raped more often than men and they also report such things more often. While rape against either gender is incredibly violating. For men it's also a display of weakness and they tend to feel less of a man, they are now women in their own eyes. You was made another mans bitch and it's a disgrace in your mind. This isn't something every man wants to report and make known to the public. Therefor it gets reported less often.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    Just how can it become too strong to control?
    Some people just don't know any better and others doesn't give a fuck. Someone who already has a skewed view to what consented sex is isn't going to improve his view when wielding a full blown boner in the same room as the tool to get rid of said boner. Some people are just really really dumb and others are just evil. There is absolutely NO justification for it, but there always is a reason and motivation.

  16. #1016
    Wow. You really have no idea what feminism is.

    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    Really annoys me when women have these ridiculous preconceptions about men.
    I can't stand feminism, it's turned our world in to women can say and do what ever the fuck they want about men, and we just have to eat it.
    In a world of deceit, open your eyes.

  17. #1017
    Elemental Lord Reg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    Nobody ever talked about anything being "justifiable" at least I didn't. So don't go branding me for things I didn't do. Psychiatry isn't a social science pal. Nobody will ever have the complete explanation about anything, not even in physics, but that's not a reason not to try because if you don't try you can't progress. I'm sorry but if truly think what I'm saying is ridiculous then you're just a fool and deluded fool at that.
    How many times did you agree with posts made by Sorrior in which he said, and I am paraphrasing, "One you're having sex, you can't just stop if she says no." That's attempting to justify their reasoning. And psychiatry is indeed a social science, except they're allowed to throw meds at a problem. Neurology would be the only science with any bearing in fact or testable theory. And as far as neurology goes, there are no receptors in the brain that operate on a different level between rapists and non-rapists brains. The only difference is a rapist makes a conscious decision to go through with it.
    Last edited by Reg; 2013-02-12 at 12:44 AM.

  18. #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin View Post

    Someone who already has a skewed view to what consented sex is isn't going to improve his view when wielding a full blown boner in the same room as the tool to get rid of said boner.
    Sorry, what?! We're no tools someone can just use for their own pleasure.
    Last edited by mmoc506e44f6eb; 2013-02-12 at 12:45 AM.

  19. #1019
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    - have at least one friend when going out to drink
    - dont walk alone at night if you can help it
    - be home before dark
    - be very aware of your surroundings
    - have some kind of alarm or defense
    - dont unlock your car before you get to it
    - try not to be alone in a room for very long with a stranger or acquaintance
    Had no idea you were that defensive (you as in all). From those "safty rules", it sounds like you are scared all the time, especially the part were you cant be in the same room with a stranger for a long period of time.
    The car unlock and be aware of your surroundings, sounds like you go around thinking "someone will attack me now".
    "Dont go out after dark", good that you dont live where the sun is gone for 3months then (like here)!
    “The worst thing I can be is the same as everybody else. I hate that.”

  20. #1020
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    If I'm trying to say that there can be "motivations" for rape other than "domination" and "misogyny" then I'm certainly not saying rape is ok or that it's justified because it might be A: hormones or B: mommy issues.
    I've disputed that hormones are a factor, at all. Guys who don't rape have the same hormones; that's not a variable that ties into rape.

    Mommy issues result in the need to dominate and/or the misogyny that are the central root; you're just explaining WHY they developed those attitudes.

    Feel free to provide other issues. They basically boil down to aggressive domination and a belief that women aren't your equal. Vanyali linked some sources up above, there. Trying to turn it into cases where the woman turned him on and then shut him down plays out like an attempt to shift partial blame to the woman, by bringing up her refusal to submit as a "motivation". That's the issue, and why I've been attacking it.


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