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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Fellaand View Post
    What macro are you using for your tricks?
    mine's a bit more complex than most, but it serves me well.

    /cast [@focus, help, exists][@<DPSName>, exists][@mouseover, help, exists] Tricks of the Trade; Tricks of the Trade

    it takes your focus target first. if that doesn't exist, or is a hostile unit, it uses the DPS you put in. if THAT doesn't exist, it uses your mouseover target, assuming again that it's not hostile. if all that fails, it uses your current target.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I do not believe this is a damage gain on live, as it requires you to forgo autoattacks for a second whilst vanished in order to gain the tricks energy. I haven't done the math, it just seems unlikely.
    Erm. What? What second are you talking about? Vanish and use ToT + CP generating ability of your choice (at the same time).
    For the 3rd time, ToT off GCD, can be macro'ed with any CP generating ability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ssith View Post
    mine's a bit more complex than most, but it serves me well.

    /cast [@focus, help, exists][@<DPSName>, exists][@mouseover, help, exists] Tricks of the Trade; Tricks of the Trade
    You can add [@targettarget,help,exists] after mouseover, gonna ToT current tank (if there's no focus, no DPS'er and no mouseover).
    Last edited by Mazius; 2013-02-14 at 01:25 AM.

  3. #43
    tricking the tank can be a DPS loss, as they're not putting out the damage a DPS is. if your tanks are doing enough damage to offset the personal loss, you're right though - nice catch =)

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    It's more the fact that most rogues right now are assassination, which is energy starved to the millionth degree during combat. Adding a mechanic that saps even more precious energy from you feels so depressing to do.
    I got simple solution for you.
    Get Trick or Treat, then actually start using ToT.
    I'm using it on CD (well, almost), and rarely seen less than 100k bonus damage (single target without any additional buffs or debuffs) during bossfight.
    Taking into account that 25% of my tricks (plus one more at pull) are energy free (ToT macro'ed to mutilate from stealth) raid getting 400k additional damage every 2 min with the cost of 45 energy.
    During AoE situations, burst phases or during some specific bossfights (Elegon, Garalon, Wind Lord, Amber shaper p3, Protectors, Lei Shi for example) you gonna see insane numbers of bonus damage dealt with your ToT.

    On our 1st Elegon HC kill prot warrior did more than 1 million bonus damage with it during execute phase (before vengeance was capped).

  5. #45
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    It's a personal gain because tricks is your goddamned damage. If you cast in on the shaman and the shaman deals 1,700,000 damage in those 6 seconds (say, during ascendance), then the gain there is 220,000 damage. That means YOUR TRICKS did that damage. Recount says the shaman did it. Recount is wrong. It's just reading the combat log. It's a personal dps gain to press it. It's just recorded wrong. Recount is the map. The territory is the damage done.
    I get where you're coming from, but by that logic Bloodlust is a personal cooldown that lets you out-DPS everyone by an order of magnitude; 3% of all external crits should be counted towards your damage if you provide Arcane Brilliance; and so forth.

    In realizing that characters interact in complex ways, you have to draw a line somewhere and say that if the damage comes from player X, then that's player X's damage. Sure an ele shaman can do more DPS with a mage around, but that's just synergy - a rogue would not benefit as much. And if you're tricking someone, then that someone does 15% more damage for 6 sec.

    In that sense tricks is a personal DPS loss, but like you said this is World of Warcraft, not Recount. It's semantics.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    I get where you're coming from, but by that logic Bloodlust is a personal cooldown that lets you out-DPS everyone by an order of magnitude; 3% of all external crits should be counted towards your damage if you provide Arcane Brilliance; and so forth.

    In realizing that characters interact in complex ways, you have to draw a line somewhere and say that if the damage comes from player X, then that's player X's damage. Sure an ele shaman can do more DPS with a mage around, but that's just synergy - a rogue would not benefit as much. And if you're tricking someone, then that someone does 15% more damage for 6 sec.

    In that sense tricks is a personal DPS loss, but like you said this is World of Warcraft, not Recount. It's semantics.
    Hmm no thats not really the same. Lust is a non stackable raid cooldown (as is everything else you mentioned). Tricks is an infinitely stackable single target damage buff.

    For example, if we swap a lock for a mage, we did not just add a timewarp to the raid. We have other mages/shaman that do that, so we gained only his personal dps. If the lock and mage do equal dps, the raid gains nothing. We swap a ww monk for a rogue, we do actually get the tricks when that rogue presses the button no matter who else is in the raid. So now if the rogue and monk not counting tricks do the same dps, the raid gains dps because of the rogue.

    Its more like a pain suppression. If a disc priest puts PS on a tank, who mitigated the damage? Yeah the warrior got hit, but that damage prevention shouldn't be attributed to the warrior. You could extend that to any defensive that you can put on some one else as they are all essentially infinitely stackable just like tricks since I doubt you could really fill a feasible raid that could exceed 100% uptime on something like PS (by stackable I don't mean simultaneous use, I mean having an infinite stack from which you can draw one at a time).

    And yes, it is purely an argument of semantics, but he does have a point.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-02-14 at 08:30 AM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    I got simple solution for you.
    Get Trick or Treat, then actually start using ToT.
    I'm using it on CD (well, almost), and rarely seen less than 100k bonus damage (single target without any additional buffs or debuffs) during bossfight.
    Taking into account that 25% of my tricks (plus one more at pull) are energy free (ToT macro'ed to mutilate from stealth) raid getting 400k additional damage every 2 min with the cost of 45 energy.
    During AoE situations, burst phases or during some specific bossfights (Elegon, Garalon, Wind Lord, Amber shaper p3, Protectors, Lei Shi for example) you gonna see insane numbers of bonus damage dealt with your ToT.

    On our 1st Elegon HC kill prot warrior did more than 1 million bonus damage with it during execute phase (before vengeance was capped).
    I'm not debating the merits, I use a similar addon. I am simply stating that it feels unpleasant to harm your own cycle for the benefit of someone else, yes that is selfish, yes it's illogical, that's how it feels - at least to me.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I'm not debating the merits, I use a similar addon. I am simply stating that it feels unpleasant to harm your own cycle for the benefit of someone else, yes that is selfish, yes it's illogical, that's how it feels - at least to me.
    agree with this

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I'm not debating the merits, I use a similar addon. I am simply stating that it feels unpleasant to harm your own cycle for the benefit of someone else, yes that is selfish, yes it's illogical, that's how it feels - at least to me.
    If something doesn't benefits me directly - to hell with it then?
    You know, stunning Subetai hurts my own cycle, stunning Embodied Terrors (and playing combat with Versality in general on Tsulong) hurts my own cycle, using Feint hurts m own cycle (it's on GCD and costs 5 more energy) etc etc.
    It's selfishness at it's finest.
    You could at least use ToT after vanish with re-opener, once every 2 min (instead every 30 sec). It's completely free (with shadow focus) and doesn't cost you anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    agree with this
    Not to mention that some evil mastermind had put your ToT on GCD.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    If something doesn't benefits me directly - to hell with it then?
    You know, stunning Subetai hurts my own cycle, stunning Embodied Terrors (and playing combat with Versality in general on Tsulong) hurts my own cycle, using Feint hurts m own cycle (it's on GCD and costs 5 more energy) etc etc.
    It's selfishness at it's finest.
    You could at least use ToT after vanish with re-opener, once every 2 min (instead every 30 sec). It's completely free (with shadow focus) and doesn't cost you anything.
    OK, I'll restate myself one last time for you benefit. I am not debating it's merits, I am simply stating that it feels unpleasant to use for selfish and illogical reasons.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  11. #51
    Using feint gives you same feelings? Just curious.

  12. #52
    Unholy frenzy/hysteria is similar, but death knights have been feeding it to other melee for years.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    Using feint gives you same feelings? Just curious.
    Honestly? Yeah, it does. I would, of course, never forgo it if it helped my raid, but I always feel a niggle of "Oh, there goes a bit of dps" every time I do it. It's hardwired into me to do everything in my power to achieve the highest dps results I can.

    This, of course, takes secondary concern to my raid's needs, but I will not pretend to not feel that momentary niggle each time I do it.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    Unholy frenzy/hysteria is similar, but death knights have been feeding it to other melee for years.
    Both ToT and UF are in game for exactly same amount of years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    It's hardwired into me to do everything in my power to achieve the highest dps results I can.
    Smoke Bomb with it's positional requirements gonna hurt your feelings in 5.2 then.

    Also, why blizzard can't just pin all the bosses/mobs on exactly the same spot and make them turn their back on you every time we attacking them?
    I'm a little dieing inside every time i have to move in front of the boss or move in general, because it hurts my dps.
    Last edited by Mazius; 2013-02-14 at 10:36 AM.

  15. #55
    Dk's can cast unholy frenzy on themselves, rogues can't...

  16. #56
    When using feint you get a direct benefit for yourself, yes, it's a small dps loose in exchange for less damage taken, maybe the difference between life and dead.

    But when you use ToT... no benefit for you. It's a small dps loose for you in exchange for a small dps increase for someone else. That's the most anti-rogue concept ever seen, it would sound more rogue-ish if we took away some dps from someone else to boost ours. Of course i use it every 30s, its good for my raid and also we are 2 rogues in raid, so we trick each other, but they should really change it to give some benefit for us. At least we are not having those dumb tier bonuses that practically was admiting by their side that ToT needs to give something to the rogue.

  17. #57
    Deleted
    When you run around like a headless chicken looking for Amber Resin at Empress, there is no benefit for you, but a big benefit for the raid. And when you use that same Feint so soak Morchok heroic swipes or Garalon swipes, the benefits for the raid becomes huge. This is not to say that tricks' design is perfect, but that there's an interesting discussion to be had about to what extent our abilities should interact with our surroundings.

    Personally, I dislike the path WoW has taken where everything is measured in numbers and performance, and accordingly everything that doesn't contribute directly to that is frowned upon. In my mind we'd want to make rogues more versatile, not less. The damage provided by tricks, though marginal, makes us more versatile - it means I can coordinate with my fellow DPSers and rotate intelligently to time it with each of their cooldowns and burst phases. It means that in a time of need, I can help my buddies in a small way to execute a crucial task that I'm not part of.

    I agree with Ryme that it feels backwards, but I have nothing against having the option to sacrifice performance in one area to boost it in another.

  18. #58
    I think that easiest solution/fix to ToT is to keep threat transfer and energy cost as it is, but drop the damage buff to ToT target.
    Rogue should get this 15% damage bonus for 6 sec after triggering ToT instead.
    Or damage buff can be split it between rogue and ToT target, both getting 9-10% bonus damage for 5 sec (or 7-8% for 6 sec).

    P.S. For me ToT is perfectly fine as it is now.
    Last edited by Mazius; 2013-02-14 at 02:16 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    I think that easiest solution/fix to ToT is to keep threat transfer and energy cost as it is, but drop the damage buff to ToT target.
    Rogue should get this 15% damage bonus for 6 sec after triggering ToT instead.
    Or damage buff can be split it between rogue and ToT target, both getting 9-10% bonus damage for 5 sec (or 7-8% for 6 sec).

    P.S. For me ToT is perfectly fine as it is now.
    I would argue that whilst that is a solution for the selfish and illogical, it's leaves still leaves TotT feeling dumb and unimaginative.

    In my opinion, the ability serves next to no purpose, is from an bygone era and should, as much as I hate saying this, be removed or if the effort from devs can be found; radically redesigned into a long cd.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 02:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    Smoke Bomb with it's positional requirements gonna hurt your feelings in 5.2 then.

    Also, why blizzard can't just pin all the bosses/mobs on exactly the same spot and make them turn their back on you every time we attacking them?
    I'm a little dieing inside every time i have to move in front of the boss or move in general, because it hurts my dps.
    Nope, my feelings aren't hurt by a video game, sometimes my ego, to be fair.

    Because that would be shit raid design, that said, it's upsetting to see bosses you have to attack from the front when you play subtlety.

    As a farewell to you, I leave you with this: In my opinion, if you're not trying to do your best to maximise your dps, you're not playing a dps role to it's best. You may disagree with that opinion, but I literally don't care since it's my opinion and I value my opinion above yours until you can demonstrate that yours is worth taking seriously.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-02-14 at 03:24 PM.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  20. #60
    well i am seeing alot of the same arguments i've had with our rogue.. which is why it is frustrating to say the least. but we had consistently wiped on h vizier to sub 5% and wiped about 6 times on h garalon to enrage with again 5% left or so.. sometimes higher. Isn't that on the rogue ? Well obv not all of it since raid dps overall needed to be better. But I cannot ignore ~15 ToT in a ~7 minute fight. 90 frikin seconds of extra 15% dmg ? at the cost of 225 energy overall, 15 at a time. Which I would think as combat stacks haste, with higher gear, that would be even less of a penalty on personal dps.

    Also, no one definitively mentioned the difference in specs. With heroic gear simcraft shows sub being 8k dps higher than combat on single target. EIGHT thousand. How is that irrelevant ? Unless in practice the difference is much smaller (which is possible), that's way too big of a difference to ignore. Heck I wouldn't even care about tricks if the rogue just played the optimal spec for single target. But it's like me as a hunter playing marksmanship now just cuz I like the playstyle on heroic progression or a dk playing unholy or a warrior playing arms.

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