Jab Nerfed Again :D

[Totaltotemic]

i'm sorry but if i could not agree more for FW, if we start to play MW on 5.2 i think we really must rethink our optimisation

While in FW, haste ONLY works on RenM breakpoints. It doesnt up your chi generation, nor your dps, nor your EnVM which you almost never use while FW.
Furthermore, FW seems to need more mana to work than MW, so the crit is totally the only stat for FW

BUT, if we start to MW, haste could up :
-by a large amount our chi generatiion ( i did some test on live: 9 tick having a chance to generate chi in 6.8sec with second haste cap, but 9 ticks in 6.0 sec with the 3rd cap )
- up our RenM, which, i'll repeat it again, is far far far away on Tier 15 our primary healing source ( and by far way , i mean FAR , thanks the tier 15 bonus )
- up our EnvM ( gives a new breakpoint) , which is more used in MW than FW
( up the SCK which is not a good argument, but it can be intereseting )

To reach that breakpoint, i'd only lose 2.4% crit, and 0 spirit. 2.4% crit means what? 1 mana tea charge each 40 tea? Woot

If we gonna MW lot more, i'm sure haste can be the stat to choose, or, at least, should not be totally ignored without further testing

Oh look, more amateur logic that has no real basis behind it. I can do it too:

If we get more crit, we'll get more mana!

If we get mroe crit, our heals will be bigger!


See how little it matters if you don't quantify something? What you failed to mention was how that 2.4% compares to 3k haste rating. HASTE DOES GOOD THINGS 4 US is not a valid reason to go haste over crit or spirit. Without a direct mathematical comparison, listing off the effects of haste has no meaning whatsoever.

[Gorsameth]

Ters

They still want us to do damage, they just want us to choose either damage or healing, not pick out the best of both. The damage matters a bit more in 10 mans where dps might be missing a buff and a healers dps can be a greater proportion of the raid's dps.

Also folks still act like ReM does no healing and Jab is the only way to get mana. ReM gives 1 chi per! You should only need to uplift after big hits like crush or get away.

ReM does no healing on heroic 25man. Uplift after big hits is the entire p3 empress, p3 ambershaper, p1 Protectors ect ect its not about spikes that im worried. im worried about overall throughput.
As for ReM chi ofc you cant ignore it but 1 chi every 8 seconds isnt going to save anyone. ever.

[Astraios]

If you're worried about overall throughput, and saying ReM sucks, you're clearly in la-la land, because its normally near uplift on a large # of fights.
Further, if you want "sustained throughput" then use SCK, it's throughput is similar to jabs (it's actually superior whenever TFT isn't up).

Mathematically speaking, using SCK makes haste a very powerful throughput stat since it would increase ReM ticks and generate chi faster. Conversely it's also very mana-negative, but the effects of increased mana may or may-not be relevant depending on fights.

For reference, valen's calc lists SCK/SCK/uplift on 7 targets at 187k hps with a 3k haste rating incrase, but only 180k hps with a 3k crit increase. Base is 174k~. For 3k haste rating, sck/sck/uplift is gaining 13k/174k ~ 7.5% increase. For funsies, increasing my haste from 6145 to 9150~, HPS goes to nearly 200k for SCK/SCK/uplift with 7 ReM targets. Essentially, SCK's haste scaling is extremely powerful comparing to everything else we have. For reference, current jab/jab/uplift is 125.5k. add 3k crit: 130.4k. Unless valen's calculator is doing something absurdly wrong, SCK scaling with haste seems like the best way to move forward (esp. w/ the current jab nerf, lack of any real SoM buff, and increased secondary stats on gear from t15.) I'm really not understanding why people seem to be hating on it.

[apepi]

I am most likely still going to go for crit in pvp, I never jab jab uplift anyways, but the mana cost to uplift is going to kill me so ill unglyph that and maybe get the paralyze one. Only thing I am looking forward to is bubble not gettind dispelled, our damage outpout(gonna be nice in pvp) and the para glyph/base range.

Oh and healing sphere might be my biggest healing done....

[Totaltotemic]

For reference, valen's calc lists SCK/SCK/uplift on 7 targets at 187k hps with a 3k haste rating incrase, but only 180k hps with a 3k crit increase. Base is 174k~. For 3k haste rating, sck/sck/uplift is gaining 13k/174k ~ 7.5% increase. For funsies, increasing my haste from 6145 to 9150~, HPS goes to nearly 200k for SCK/SCK/uplift with 7 ReM targets. Essentially, SCK's haste scaling is extremely powerful comparing to everything else we have. For reference, current jab/jab/uplift is 125.5k. add 3k crit: 130.4k. Unless valen's calculator is doing something absurdly wrong, SCK scaling with haste seems like the best way to move forward (esp. w/ the current jab nerf, lack of any real SoM buff, and increased secondary stats on gear from t15.) I'm really not understanding why people seem to be hating on it.

Maybe because you've completely ignored the fact that haste does not increase the HPM of SCK, whereas Crit not only does, but also gives mana regen? Obviously if you're only talking about HPS, haste will always win, there's a reason why it takes less haste rating to get 1% haste than it does for crit. The mana difference between haste and crit is worth a tangible amount of Spirit, and while that conversion is complex, it's certainly not irrelevant.

[Luqt]

Maybe because you've completely ignored the fact that haste does not increase the HPM of SCK, whereas Crit not only does, but also gives mana regen? Obviously if you're only talking about HPS, haste will always win, there's a reason why it takes less haste rating to get 1% haste than it does for crit. The mana difference between haste and crit is worth a tangible amount of Spirit, and while that conversion is complex, it's certainly not irrelevant.

That statement is true, but we already went for crit before the implementation of the effect of crit on our mana tea. Meaning, there's something about crit besides the mana regen bit that seemed to make us want more of it. And that's because our main abilities (uplift, ReM and chi burst) scale relatively well with crit. As we'll be inevitably using less uplifts since our guaranteed chi generator is no longer applicable for the purpose, and considering the 30 sec cd on chi burst, crit won't be as desirable as it is on live because it's weight on our throughput (via uplift and chi burst) will be reduced. Note that I didn't suggest crit will be a worse stat than it is currently, it just won't have the same weight because we'll be using the abilities that scale well with it to a lesser extent.

On the topic of going for 27.76% haste, depending on your SP having a 12th tick on ReM increases its healing done by roughly 9%, a 11 tick ReM with the 2T15 set bonus yields a 15.75% increase to ReM healing and having both over our ReM on live would be a 26% increase to ReM healing, and I didn't quantify crit or mastery into that. It shows how it's pretty significant on it's own. Gnorrior also mentioned a valid point where SCK's hps scales very well with haste, it would bring our SCK to a 1.72 sec channel. As you said it definitely reduces its HPM value but it will be one of our best HPM heals anyway.

Disclaimer: I didn't suggest going for 27.76% haste will be a must for next patch but with both bonuses from T15 some comparisons need to be done to verify this.

[Tatuin]

- Another idea would be a second placable 'special' statue that adds additional eminence healing and it has a duration and CD to help with burst healing while still FW. Range of 40y.

this i would want as FW could even make it work for MWs somehow

[Bartolo]

Even if they increase chi generation through Soothing, it will never replace the guaranteed 2 chi in 2 GCDs that jab was providing and that is needed for healing HC content. We need a reliable way to react to situations like '3-6 people need heal NOW' which all healers have and we don't. Chi burst could fix it if it was a LoD kind of spell, or Chi wave if it was instantly traveling to 4 targets (and not take ages to bounce), or Uplift if it did not require ReM active. But that will never happen because obviously devs don't want to invest too much time for a spec a minority of people is playing, esp in 25-man raid. Still dreaming of a new (smart) raid healing chi dumper.

In fact the real benefit of increased Soothing chi generation is that we may become viable tank healers now that we no longer have to overheal with a Surging just to get some chi.

[Postaldude]

Even if they increase chi generation through Soothing, it will never replace the guaranteed 2 chi in 2 GCDs that jab was providing and that is needed for healing HC content. We need a reliable way to react to situations like '3-6 people need heal NOW' which all healers have and we don't. Chi burst could fix it if it was a LoD kind of spell, or Chi wave if it was instantly traveling to 4 targets (and not take ages to bounce), or Uplift if it did not require ReM active. But that will never happen because obviously devs don't want to invest too much time for a spec a minority of people is playing, esp in 25-man raid. Still dreaming of a new (smart) raid healing chi dumper.

In fact the real benefit of increased Soothing chi generation is that we may become viable tank healers now that we no longer have to overheal with a Surging just to get some chi.

In terms of single target healing, I wouldnt know because I have never used soothing mists + EnvM for the sole purpose of keeping a single target alive except for maybe pre 5.1 where EnVM wasnt gimped. No what I use is Healing Sphere's and they are totally overpowered and scales incredibly well and the fact is I DO NOT want to use them, I hate the extra required raid awareness and requiring marked tanks and so on but I do it anyways because that's how much i despise soothing mists and the crappy EnvM even more so.

Truthfully I dont see how increased chi regeneration would boost our tank healing even slightly unless we are given a Word of Glory type chi spender (instant heal) in couple with EnvM I could see it ending up decent for focused tank healing but until then I'd rather use healing sphere's because wet noodle hot wont save the tank but big heals that can be spammed in quick succession will (I'd rather rely on the other classes hots to take care of the small damage intake than trying to compete with it)

[Deleted]

If you're worried about overall throughput, and saying ReM sucks, you're clearly in la-la land, because its normally near uplift on a large # of fights.
Further, if you want "sustained throughput" then use SCK, it's throughput is similar to jabs (it's actually superior whenever TFT isn't up).

Mathematically speaking, using SCK makes haste a very powerful throughput stat since it would increase ReM ticks and generate chi faster. Conversely it's also very mana-negative, but the effects of increased mana may or may-not be relevant depending on fights.

For reference, valen's calc lists SCK/SCK/uplift on 7 targets at 187k hps with a 3k haste rating incrase, but only 180k hps with a 3k crit increase. Base is 174k~. For 3k haste rating, sck/sck/uplift is gaining 13k/174k ~ 7.5% increase. For funsies, increasing my haste from 6145 to 9150~, HPS goes to nearly 200k for SCK/SCK/uplift with 7 ReM targets. Essentially, SCK's haste scaling is extremely powerful comparing to everything else we have. For reference, current jab/jab/uplift is 125.5k. add 3k crit: 130.4k. Unless valen's calculator is doing something absurdly wrong, SCK scaling with haste seems like the best way to move forward (esp. w/ the current jab nerf, lack of any real SoM buff, and increased secondary stats on gear from t15.) I'm really not understanding why people seem to be hating on it.

Haste is without a doubt the best stat, if all you're doing is SCK. I think you're underestimating how expensive it could potentially be though, especially with our haste scaling. I have 3000 haste about equal to 1000 MP5 if all you're doing is SCK->SCK->Uplift.

[Deleted]

Still dreaming of a new (smart) raid healing chi dumper.

+1

Something doing 3/4 of uplift heal on only 6 players, to encourage to keep our gameplay based on RenM + Uplift

I'd even say this new smart aoe heal should not be able to heal target with RenM, and only most injured ones with NO renM

This would give up some choise to use uplift or another depending on WHO is touched by some aoe.

However, we still have the problem, in MW, what to do with the extra useless chi , now that without muscle memory and eminence nerf, doing a TP will do almost no dps nor heal. I presume we supposed, when we can anticipate a low healing period, to go to FW, but not always easy to anticipate.

Perhaps EnvM should be a real hot ( like 15 to 21 sec), and give us some real greater instead.

However the whole chi dumper system for MW is to be rethinked

[Gorsameth]

If you're worried about overall throughput, and saying ReM sucks, you're clearly in la-la land, because its normally near uplift on a large # of fights.
Further, if you want "sustained throughput" then use SCK, it's throughput is similar to jabs (it's actually superior whenever TFT isn't up).

Mathematically speaking, using SCK makes haste a very powerful throughput stat since it would increase ReM ticks and generate chi faster. Conversely it's also very mana-negative, but the effects of increased mana may or may-not be relevant depending on fights.

For reference, valen's calc lists SCK/SCK/uplift on 7 targets at 187k hps with a 3k haste rating incrase, but only 180k hps with a 3k crit increase. Base is 174k~. For 3k haste rating, sck/sck/uplift is gaining 13k/174k ~ 7.5% increase. For funsies, increasing my haste from 6145 to 9150~, HPS goes to nearly 200k for SCK/SCK/uplift with 7 ReM targets. Essentially, SCK's haste scaling is extremely powerful comparing to everything else we have. For reference, current jab/jab/uplift is 125.5k. add 3k crit: 130.4k. Unless valen's calculator is doing something absurdly wrong, SCK scaling with haste seems like the best way to move forward (esp. w/ the current jab nerf, lack of any real SoM buff, and increased secondary stats on gear from t15.) I'm really not understanding why people seem to be hating on it.

Yes uplift and ReM are often near each other in % healing done but that has very little to do with the situations i described. Maybe it was my fault for a poor choice of words but as i said before im talking about things like protectors p1, empress p3 ect. Thats relatively long phases of very high aoe damage, for short bursts we can pool Chi (even without using jab) but when you need to do it for a minute or more of high damage 4k ReM ticks are not going to save people.

Yes SCK does help a ton there but is Blizzard just going to allow us to go from jab/jab/uplift to sck/sck/uplift without it just getting destroyed yet again a patch later?

MW's have found a way to heal that they like and that works, Blizz obviously disagrees with us but instead of figuring out why we diverted to jab/jab/uplift they just destroy it and think that will solve it. They need to realise we all do it because they have taken away all our other tools.
Uplift is by nature of being tied to ReM kinda random. in 5.0 we could just cover 80% of the raid with it and so the rng wasnt much of a factor, Obv we were overpower at this point. no one denies that so they fixed it.
Yet having 10 "random" people out of 25 with ReM to uplift isnt always effective so we switched to Chi Burst which would reliably hit the needed people (assuming a raid stacked), blizz didnt like it so they nerfed it.
So were once again back to "random" people we can aoe heal so we go back to spamming uplift since its all we got. yet they dont like it so there nerfing it.
Now we can move to SCK for our healing but i have the funny feeling history will just repeat itself and once again blizzard will just nerf us again.

[Teriz]

Even if they increase chi generation through Soothing, it will never replace the guaranteed 2 chi in 2 GCDs that jab was providing and that is needed for healing HC content. We need a reliable way to react to situations like '3-6 people need heal NOW' which all healers have and we don't. Chi burst could fix it if it was a LoD kind of spell, or Chi wave if it was instantly traveling to 4 targets (and not take ages to bounce), or Uplift if it did not require ReM active. But that will never happen because obviously devs don't want to invest too much time for a spec a minority of people is playing, esp in 25-man raid. Still dreaming of a new (smart) raid healing chi dumper.

In fact the real benefit of increased Soothing chi generation is that we may become viable tank healers now that we no longer have to overheal with a Surging just to get some chi.

What about Expel Harm?

[Deleted]

One chi every 15 seconds isn't very malleable, especially when your alternatives are so expensive....

[Baeric]

How much of an increase in dps (rough percentage) are you theorizing we'll have in 5.2?

I'm trying to reconcile these changes to work for our casual 10-man group (no heroics). I am currently the best healer by far, and we usually do a mix of 2-heal and 3-heal depending on the fight. As it stands, our group frequently struggles on fights in which me must 2-heal as the other healer (shaman or paladin) is usually a fair amount below me. However, whenever we try to 3 heal we hit the enrage. That we've had to pug a couple of dps each weak hasn't helped matters. To give you an idea, if the 5.2 changes were live currently, I'm doubtful that our group could down Garalon.

I very much enjoy the current play style of the class, and while I really don't want to become a 50/50 healer/dps hybrid, I guess I will just have to adapt in whichever manner most works for our guild. I'm not happy about the changes, but I can see this being an option for our group, providing the dps increase is sufficient: 3 healers, me fistweaving as much as possible while keeping up RM and raid/spot healing or switching to mistweaving as needed. This would alleviate some of the enrage and healing issues we seem to have.

Disclaimer: I'm not proposing this as a viable option for every 10-man monk healer out there. I'm simply trying to take the buff to our dps and apply it to my guild's own situation. Obviously things may yet change before the patch is implemented, but I'm interested in any rough dps numbers you theorycrafters come up with relative to live.

[Deleted]

Use the link in my signature, it'll give a rough estimate for your DPS.

[apepi]

We do about 60k dps in pvp gear last time I checked. It has been increased a lot if done right,

[Bartolo]

What about Expel Harm?

15 sec CD, need 3 chi for EvM so trust me very often a surging is needed and drains your mana really fast when you try tank healing. Also yes we could use healing sphere, but gameplay is pretty awful so I never gave it a serious try.

[iDrunkenheal]

Wow is casting soothing mist a super fun way to play this class. I can't wait for 5.2!!! Monks will be doing very little damage (Can be huge in 10 man). Monks will have to pool chi for huge burst phases pop chi brew then wait while soothing does nothing for you and people die. SCK is great in 25 since there is likely to be 6 people stacked, this isn't the case in 10.

MW will only be competitive (maybe slightly ahead) with our tier, which makes up between 30-40% of our healing on ptr. At that point outside of constant raid damage is just straight heal sniping. Didn't people complain when 40% of a holy paladins healing came from HR?

IDK I'm at a loss for words at why these changes were made. Apparently sitting middle of the pack warrants a 50% nerf to your resource gen, but doing 20% more dps then us and dominating the healing charts and trivializing most content is perfectly fine? Holy paladins all sit about 20% above us on most fights and aren't seeing a single nerf.

[Felade]

Yes SCK does help a ton there but is Blizzard just going to allow us to go from jab/jab/uplift to sck/sck/uplift without it just getting destroyed yet again a patch later?

I think its pretty clear what they want us to do is SCK-SCK-Uplift (or Soothing-Uplift).

Its seems to me that unless you're in a raid stacking situation, you'll probably want to use Soothing to generate Chi in most situations. If your raid is stacked, you SCK. I was worried about using a single target spell to generate Chi, but I think it might work out. If you consider how much healing Jab does on live (negligible), we aren't really losing much on the raw healing side by channeling Soothing for Chi generation.

SCK concerned me as well because it costs so much mana. As long as you make sure you'll actually get a Chi out of it though, it doesn't seem too bad. Also, you won't need to Uplift as much if you're using SCK since it does so much healing on its own.

I'm still a bit concerned about what we do to pool Chi for big damage phases that come after a lul in healing where the raid is topped off. SCK seems pretty clearly out. Channeling Soothing on a full health target seems like a waste. Jab and Surging also obvious no's. Maybe that's what we are supposed to use CJL for?