Jab Nerfed Again :D

[Astraios]

Where's this? Are the mmo datamined notes completely wrong that it was increased to 4.5% mana?
Because if that's all that happened we'll still do the exact same thing, i wasn't having any mana troubles in 10m testing, and we scale significantly better in 25s (mana is easier, more mana tides, less tank healing for us to do, etc.) Can't be worse than disc priests. Good thing I leveled my paladin though, not sure how they haven't gotten any nerfs when disc and MW have.

I feel like a cata paladin atm. Every patch: mana costs go up. Beginning of tier, everyones worried about mana. End of tier: lol whats mana management?

Also, how the heck are new monks going to cope with those mana costs? I get carried by ridiculous gear at this point obviously, and I doubt it will be a problem with a small increase anyway, but for new monks...not so much.

Edit: They want to break what?

[Lucetia]

Your significant healing spells have an additional cost tacked on because they also generate an additional resource for free healing? How interesting sounds like a familiar mechanic... I mean of course without any significant healing for us but hey!

Not sure what you think I was saying. The one I quoted merely asked what class spends a good chunk of mana to generate an additional resource. I mentioned Holy Paladins and one of their spells tackled on with a couple others.

Either way the additional cost of jab is justified as it generates a resource that is mana free. Not to mention you get back a good chunk of it when you Tiger Palm tacked on with the fact that there is Mana Tea after spending said resource. So exactly what is the complaint about spell cost?

[Abysal]

I feel like a cata paladin atm. Every patch: mana costs go up. Beginning of tier, everyones worried about mana. End of tier: lol whats mana management?

Also, how the heck are new monks going to cope with those mana costs? I get carried by ridiculous gear at this point obviously, and I doubt it will be a problem with a small increase anyway, but for new monks...not so much.

Only way they can really prevent the mana issues from 1st tier to last tier is to make incoming dmg so high in the last tier that it forces healers to spam inefficient heals. Problem is that tank mitigation goes up each tier too and the more difficult bosses don't tend to offset it enough to cause that.

As for new monks: I'm guessing they won't fistweave.

---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 03:22 AM ----------

The problem is GC has explicitly said they're going to break it, and that means that they're going to break it.

Yes. To oversimplify, we don't want Jab, Jab, Uplift, nor do we want Soothe, Soothe, Tiger Palm. We want Fistweaving to provide significant damage and healing, but both should be less than an actual DPS spec or a traditional healer (again Atonement is the model). Fistweaving will be awesome for some situations, but we want it to be a compromise, otherwise, you'd want monks for all your healers, since you get all this bonus DPS on the side for no healing cost. In order to deliver on this, we have to make it harder to cherry pick some Fistweaving abilities and some Mistweaving abilities.

He doesn't intend to break fistweaving. He intends to break using Jab as a Chi generator and using other heals instead of eminence. He pretty much explained as clear as daylight that he wants Jab->TP to be viable in the right situation. Making the mana cost so high that it's unsustainable isn't going to do that.

[Mithfin]

The only thing they will achieve is the emerge of "regen rotation" of SM + TP. So, we will heal as we do now with Jab/SCK + Uplift and will regen with SM + TP on low healing phases. That's all. And fuck Muscle Memory.

[ShuttleXpC]

This is why the game will never be taken seriously for major league gaming. It's a silly thing, but Blizzard acts all confused as to why this game isn't included. Quick answer, take a 5 minute look at some of these hilariously imbalanced skills/abilities.

[zito]

The only thing they will achieve is the emerge of "regen rotation" of SM + TP. So, we will heal as we do now with Jab/SCK + Uplift and will regen with SM + TP on low healing phases. That's all. And fuck Muscle Memory.

I guess it's a good thing that we have nothing to spend chi on now that we are going to be using SM (lol still lol)

[apepi]

I guess it's a good thing that we have nothing to spend chi on now that we are going to be using SM (lol still lol)

Jab 13500 mana, tiger's palm 1 chi, Blackout kick 2 chi, for everything thing else theirs soothing mist.

[Felade]

I don't know why all the QQ. The goal here is to split up Fistweaving and Mistweaving. They want us to mix and match less. If you fistweave, you get a lot of the mana back you spent on Jab by using TP. You just can't Jab and spend all your Chi on uplift and expect to still have mana like you do on live.

Imo people spend too much time Jabbing on live anyway. Renewing Mist on its own does a lot of healing and is a very efficient source of Chi. I guess what I'm saying is we don't need so much Chi that you have to Jab all the time.

[dar0]

also remember that thay removed the chi cost on chi wave and it's equivalents, wich makes "caster mode" a little less dependant on chi, since you now always can hit them on CD and still have chi for uplifts or w/e you want to use it for. wich makes gaining chi less of a pain. i'm guessing that's how they ment to "fix" casting without the possibility to jab for "free" chi, as we could before. now they want us to dedicate a few sec atleast to fistweaving when we first decide to go down that road. but like atonement, it's not going to be required to do so, it'll be a choice for the ppl who like it. and the 200% then 150% increase to dps, was probably to make the fistweaving heals viable in pvp, but then they saw "oh shit now it got too good for pve" then nerfed eminence, and buffed the pvp prat by making the heals "ignore"resilience, kinda like how vengeance works for tanks in pve. i think alot of these changes look good, and don't see a reason to complain. seems like it's getting somewhere imo.

[Bartolo]

Obviously none of the devs plays MW, at least in 25-man. Wish I could post on US forums, would be worth asking if they have plans on making uplift a smart heal ... on making Chi wave take less than ages to reach its target (why does it have to jump so high??) ... and I see that the updated patchnotes still do not explain why CW/ZS healing was cut by half on PTR as compared to live.

[Lynarii]

What they want, specifically, is to balance out the raid contribution.

If a Fistweaver can do 100% of the healing of a healer, AND do 50% of the damage of a DPS, then they're contributing more than anyone else in the raid. This means guilds that stack monks have an advantage over those that don't, and that's bad.

So what they need to do is find a way to bring down the Fistweaver's contribution so that the overall of what they bring to a group is more balanced, but they need to do that in a way that doesn't make a casting Mistweaver do less than 100% contribution, because that's /also/ bad. A monk needs to be capable of putting out as much healing as anyone else when they put 100% of their attention into healing, or guilds won't take them at all on difficult healing content.

The only way to reconcile these two issues is to separate out the ability use so that they're not pushing the same buttons, allowing them to tweak the buttons that each method of healing pushes independently of each other. There will still be some overlap of course, otherwise you might as well make them two different specs entirely, but both Fistweaving and Mistweaving need to be capable of being the 'right' choice depending on the needs of the the raid and that of the encounter.


Edit: Oh, and Mistweaving HAS to be able to do it's job without requiring melee or enemy targets. That's an encounter design thing, there are plenty of times where bosses go out of range, or invulnerable, or what have you without stopping the need for healing. You don't have to be the /best/ healer in every situation, but you have to at least be a capable healer in all of them.

[Deleted]

If they want to separate FW and MW totally, i can totally understand , BUT, to do so, we NEED some things:

- for FW :
-a 40y range for our eminence and our serpent efigu eminence. This is for me pretty obvious that it is mandatory
-some balance to up a little eminence ( 50% is too hight, 25 seems too low with the muscle memory nerf, perhaps 33% )

I presume they want us to play in melee, us jab-bok-tp in our rotation which is totally mana neutral, and generate mana tea charges without ahving to use it, and use our mana and mana tea charges to use some Glyphed uplift

-for MW :
- a change on the Soothing chi generation:

It must be NOT RNG anymore

. i mean, go tell the Hpal there Horion may have 50% to generate a holy power. You will see if they are happy. I propose 2 possibilities:
--> Soothing mist generate 1 chi every 2 ticks.
--> First tick got a 35% generating chi, second tick got 70%, third tick got 100%. It comes back to 35% baseline when one chi is generated


Furthermore, we need 2 others things:
- some better scaling of level 30 talents : they are almost useless on ptr, do less than 5/6% of our hps even well used, it's pretty ridiculous. Chiwave/chi burst need a 100% up, Zen sphere a 200% buff ( or a total rethink about it )

AND WE NEED NEW CHI DUMP : Envelopping mist is not always the "greater" solution : too short to be a hot, too long to be greater, it always comes AFTER the instant/casted greater, and fade ( as a hot ), before it is usefull anymore.
And now tier 30 no longer cost chi anymore.
We need a new chi dump

What about making a buff, out of GCD, costing 3 chi, making our next SCK or our next surging mists to cost no mana


Thanks, and please US people, be active on ptr forum and try to make things better ( as the poor EU people can't be listened, read by GC, or even post on US forums..)

[Bartolo]

and the 200% then 150% increase to dps, was probably to make the fistweaving heals viable in pvp, but then they saw "oh shit now it got too good for pve

And they needed this tested before they adjust? Woot! Was just a way to justify nerfing eminence (even from auto-atk, which was bad), period.

---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 09:06 AM ----------

What they want, specifically, is to balance out the raid contribution.

If a Fistweaver can do 100% of the healing of a healer, AND do 50% of the damage of a DPS, then they're contributing more than anyone else in the raid. This means guilds that stack monks have an advantage over those that don't, and that's bad.

Edit: Oh, and Mistweaving HAS to be able to do it's job without requiring melee or enemy targets. That's an encounter design thing, there are plenty of times where bosses go out of range, or invulnerable, or what have you without stopping the need for healing. You don't have to be the /best/ healer in every situation, but you have to at least be a capable healer in all of them.

Disc priest can already heal 100% of another healer through atonment and they're buffing it.

We agree that MW has to be able to heal out of melee and feel capable to do so. And that's the key issue here, I want to be capable of healing the persons who need my heals, which currently isn't guaranteed because uplift is attached to ReM and we have to rely on luck.

[Yorgl]

From reading some post, it seems that you intend to FW with purely Jap/TP/BoK (and the free talent). I was under the impression that we'd still cast ReM on CD.
It provides quite some heal, and the extra Chi gained (which, by extra, means they don't provide MuscMem buff) would be used in order to BoK (to refresh Zeal) and to uplift.

Unless the boss has a very tight enrage which demands us to DPS as much as possible, I think this would provdide more HPS wouldn't it ?
(I can't test on the PTR as I am one of the unlucky players with the account's bug :-/)

[Deleted]

Even in full fistweaving RenM will be totally mandatory, even more with tier 15 bonus

i tested on dummies, it seems i can do about 58k dps in full dps rotation ( 64k before muscle memory nerf)

Adding in the rotation RenM on cd and the 5 stacks surging mist proc, + some uplift to elminate the extra chi generated by those 2, it is lowered by 10k, to about 48k, but the amount of heal provided by RenM , on ptr, especially with the tier 15, is totally fucking crazy/stupid

[apepi]

Even in full fistweaving RenM will be totally mandatory, even more with tier 15 bonus

i tested on dummies, it seems i can do about 58k dps in full dps rotation ( 64k before muscle memory nerf)

Adding in the rotation RenM on cd and the 5 stacks surging mist proc, + some uplift to elminate the extra chi generated by those 2, it is lowered by 10k, to about 48k, but the amount of heal provided by RenM , on ptr, especially with the tier 15, is totally fucking crazy/stupid

If you really want to do damage do a jab, gain a chi fro, ReM then BoK. You wont get mann regen back but damage is much higher.

My Idea is to decouple Fistweaving/range healing and have each of them have there own chi(dark/light), so then you would not be able to jab jab uplift or sm sm then tp. Like Ghostcrawler wants, just without bad mechanics, because right now the changes they are trying to do is so...it is too complex to fix a simple problem...

[Felade]

My Idea is to decouple Fistweaving/range healing and have each of them have there own chi(dark/light), so then you would not be able to jab jab uplift or sm sm then tp. Like Ghostcrawler wants, just without bad mechanics, because right now the changes they are trying to do is so...it is too complex to fix a simple problem...

Seems pretty simple to me. Make Jab super inefficient, unless you spend the Chi on Tiger Palm. Works a lot like Rapture and PW:Shield - PW:S costs a boatload of mana but it (used to) be a fairly significant absorb. However, every so often you'll get a ton of mana back from a fully used PW:S. It makes you want to cast PW:S, but only when you're going to be credited with a Rapture. However, it also leaves open the option to spam PW:S on the whole raid if you *really* need to.

The new relationship between Jab and Tiger Palm means if you really need a ton of Chi *right now*, Jab your heart out, but don't make that your default playstyle (like a lot of Monks seem to have done).

[Gorsameth]

Seems pretty simple to me. Make Jab super inefficient, unless you spend the Chi on Tiger Palm. Works a lot like Rapture and PW:Shield - PW:S costs a boatload of mana but it (used to) be a fairly significant absorb. However, every so often you'll get a ton of mana back from a fully used PW:S. It makes you want to cast PW:S, but only when you're going to be credited with a Rapture. However, it also leaves open the option to spam PW:S on the whole raid if you *really* need to.

The new relationship between Jab and Tiger Palm means if you really need a ton of Chi *right now*, Jab your heart out, but don't make that your default playstyle (like a lot of Monks seem to have done).

I understand why there trying to do this but the problem is why everyone is using jab so much. Its our only way to reliably and quickly gain chi and unless they fix that this method ill cripple us. Do you really think you can keep a raid up during heroic bosses with only chi from Soothing and ReM to uplift with?

If they want us to not melee unless were full on fistweaving then give us a ranged heal that gives us chi without taking forever(soothing) or costing insane amounts of mana (surging)

The other options would be glyphing uplift but then what do we do with chi? we wont have anything decent to spend it on other then a EM on the tank every 24 seconds. but then we gain and spend so few chi we'll not get mana tea stacks and we'll just oom way to fast.

I fear what blizz is trying to do now is take a class that combined fistweave/mistweave and seperate them bit by bit without looking at the overarching picture.
Pure mistweaving just doesnt have the tools right now to be able to do anything other then tank heal.

[Felade]

Its our only way to reliably and quickly gain chi and unless they fix that this method ill cripple us. Do you really think you can keep a raid up during heroic bosses with only chi from Soothing and ReM to uplift with?

I do. When I really, really need to Jab, I'll Jab, but for the most part, I'll make do with the Chi I get from using ReM on CD, Chi Brew, and Soothing Mist (I raid 10 mans so I have to single target heal fairly often). We also currently spend a lot of Chi keeping TP and Serpent's Zeal up. With the Jab changes, we may only want to do that on fights with a damage bonus like Elegon, or possibly fights with a lot of low spiky damage where the raid stacks up a bit.

People QQ so much about Chi gen, but I think the real problem is we snipe our own ReM with Uplift too much on live. We need to learn to live with more ReM and less Uplift.

Basically, I feel that all healers over-rely on Spirit. I've gone the full Intellect route (although I favor Spirit over all other secondaries for things like reforging). I decided to try this on my Monk. I found that I had to minimize my Jabs in order for this gearing to work, but I still felt like I did competitive healing as long as I was smart about when and how I used my Chi. That means banking Chi for big damage phases, but relying more on the passive healing from ReM except basically whenever there's a big hit going out like Garalon's crush where you really need to make up some ground.

Did some pulls on Heroic Garalon and killed Heroic Blade Lord this way. I'm also undergeared (487 ilvl). My numbers were comparable with our other healers (Disc, Pally, Druid).

[Jaydaa]

They should just separate them permanently with a stance and save everyone the trouble of trying to balance two different forms of healing that are coupled. Each can have mana reductions based on each stances primary form of healing. Upon switching stances, chi is cleared so that one stance isn't used to generate chi and spent in the other stance. Apply a short cd to the stances and voila we have a more sane way of balancing fistweaving and ranged healing. Done and done.