[5.2] PTR Standardized DPS Testing - Come Help!

[Bemlikanz]

/\ this created me some hope. Dont wanna leave arcane

[zomgDPS]

Dummies Trial - 511 Equipped - Troll - Regular Essence and Heroic LoC for trinkets

If you don't mind, can you please redo the test using the template gear as outlined in the OP.

That way, your results will be much, much more useful.

Thanks.

---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 05:40 PM ----------

/\ this created me some hope. Dont wanna leave arcane

And this is exactly why.

Your test is not indicative of the 5+ pages of testing that has already occurred in this this thread.


Again, this is not a "I want to do the maximum DPS in whatever my gear is" test. This is a very specific test, with a very specific goal.

[kirit0]

/\ this created me some hope. Dont wanna leave arcane

There is no hope ATM Arcane IS overnerfed!

[Deleted]

There is no hope ATM Arcane IS overnerfed!

You're right.
There is no hope and there will not be anymore before 6.0, after GC stated quite obviously that he doesn't want Arcane to be able to compete for the top places anymore.
Any fights involving movement and aoe will put Arcane to the bottom for obvious reasons.

Arcane and Affliction are high on many fights in 5.1, but they shouldn't be in 5.2.

[Polarthief]

You're right.
There is no hope and there will not be anymore before 6.0, after GC stated quite obviously that he doesn't want Arcane to be able to compete for the top places anymore.
Any fights involving movement and aoe will put Arcane to the bottom for obvious reasons.

And due to Frost's horrible scaling, and the fact that it's about to soft-cap both Haste AND Crit, it'll be worthless in T16/H T15, leaving us to only play Fire, until that gets nerfed for having too good of a scaling.

Analysis: We're FUCKED.

[Soulstrike]

snip

hmmm that number is actually quiet interesting since ive done the same rotation as yours 1 week ago before the nerfs and i have been doing around about 95k-105k dps with 504ilvl (i didnt use t15 stuff just my gear from live)

havent gone into ptr yet after the horrid nerf to arcane :/ (internet almost capped)

@zomgdps have you tried using frost armor instead of mage armor with full mix of haste/mastery build?? its the one i use on live to get 15th tick for my NT(20.9% haste)

[Deleted]

I just want to make a warning about RNG factor.

This weekend, I was making so run on Silvermoon's dummies when I see something of interest. One of my sustained rotation (frost T15+Pvp/PVE 496) was showing better result than a 2 minutes burn (52k Vs 50k). So I redo the burn test and I jump around 70k.

Here's some of my conclusion :
except if you want to test trinket interaction, choose PvP trinket (no proc).
make sure to enchant intel on cape (no tailoring).
test 1 is sustained, so don't stop at 5 minutes. The longer the less RNG, it will result. So go for 50 or 100 millions damages.
test 2/3 is time limited, for better result, redo the run 4 or 5 times (minimum) and average it.

one more things :
For frost's number 2, it could have been better to make it for 3 minutes to see result on an entire IV/AT cooldown (stop dps just before they're up).

[zomgDPS]

@zomgdps have you tried using frost armor instead of mage armor with full mix of haste/mastery build?? its the one i use on live to get 15th tick for my NT(20.9% haste)

I have. The results were, unfortunately, not optimal.

Arcane just 'works' much better if you min/max towards a specific stat (either haste or mastery, but no mix). That being said, I am becoming less and less confident with each test in the ultimate viability of the 'classic' Arcane Haste Invocation build. It just does not seem to be able to stack up to a Mastery build right now.

I am going to squeeze some time to do some more testing, specifically targeted at those two builds. The real meat and potatoes of the answer though will lie in the viability of RoP in the new tier of raiding. I have seen most fights, but not all, and so far, RoP seems to work in almost all of them barring a very few (on the flipside, IW works in a LOT of them). If this ends up being the case for the entire raid tier and RoP becomes a viable overall pick, then Arcane Invocation Haste will go the way of the dodo.

It just gets its ass handed to it by RoP Mastery builds if used by equally skilled hands.

Though ultimately, I don't think any of this will matter. Mages will all go Fire Crit anyway.

[Bemlikanz]

Blizzard logic : oooh, there are some aff and arcane rocking.. Lets nerf them to become on the bottom of the list!!!
Next patch: oooh there are some X and Y rocking...


This doesnt make any sense. They want to each patch, a spec be good, and not trying to every spec being equal.

---------- Post added 2013-02-21 at 12:08 PM ----------

There is no hope ATM Arcane IS overnerfed!

please, note that are just PTR testing changes.. This doesnt mean that 5,2 will be released as this way... On beginning of PTR, they buffed arcane, nerfed our Counterpell, our deep freeze, etc. Things may (and will) change until 5,2, but we need to wait to know if it'll be for good or bad.

[kirit0]

please, note that are just PTR testing changes.. This doesnt mean that 5,2 will be released as this way... On beginning of PTR, they buffed arcane, nerfed our Counterpell, our deep freeze, etc. Things may (and will) change until 5,2, but we need to wait to know if it'll be for good or bad.

as GC says

Arcane and Affliction are high on many fights in 5.1, but they shouldn't be in 5.2.

it doesn't look to me that they want to buff arcane

[KoolKidKaos]

Doing my new strat with premade character now, Orc this time ><


Build: Arcane | RoP/NT | Mastery
Test: 2
Result: 75k
Strategy: Rune, Images, Arcane Blast, NT, continued to stack charges til 4, Alter Time Macro (Blood Fury/Arcane Power) Missiles, Blast, Missiles, Barrage. Alter Time reset, Missles, Missles, Barrage. Refreshed Bomb, then continued to stack to 4, using missiles at 2 or 3(if any were available). Dropping stacks at 4 with barrage. Mana Gem at 70%, keep rune refreshed at 2 seconds remaining.

[Mastamage]

So they don't want affliction to be top either yet I have yet to see as huge a nerf as arcane got. Sometimes I think GC picks his responses out of a feces filled hat, they're so full of crap.

[Pandacally]

Did some test regarding how to play, and apparently taking invocation (and the subsequent playstyle of burning the mana bar) really is a strong nerf to both secondary stats, mastery and haste.

Let me explain; with mastery it is quite simple, the more mana (% wise) you deplete, the less "mastery"-multiplier you get (60% mastery at 100% mana equals a 1,6 fold multiplier); thats why mastery in 5.1 was so extremely powerfull, because you could stay at 100% mana all the time. Now with 5.2, I see no way how we could even stay "quite" in the full-mana range with either invocation, rune or ward, without having to sacrifice the "stack"-multiplier. (1,5^4 = 5,06 fold multiplier); obviously, because of the strength of the "stack"-multiplier compared to the "mastery"-multiplier, you will always try to maximize the "stack"-multiplier, even when it means sacrificing the mastery multiplier.
Thus makes invocation the (imho) best choice, because it allows for you the highest uptime of the "stack"-multiplier (by spamming AB), but at the same time devaluates Mastery A LOT. (you might argue that mastery is now only worth half of that it was before)

Considering this, you would argue that then HASTE might be the stat to go, but there is the big problem of the second benefit of haste; in 5.1, haste was a strong secondary stat because it allowed you to cast more (sure), BUT ALSO it enhanced your mana-reggen, thus it did not create (like in expansions before) a mana-gap, when you casted more AB (in a shorter time-frame) then you mana-reggen could handle.
Now, this second part of the HASTE-benefits is obviously irrelevant with invocation, thus haste is also devaluated quite a bit.

With my limited posibilities, I tried to reconsider CRIT as a valid secondary stat choice, and supprisingly, with the invocation talent, CRIT pulls ahead of Mastery and comes quite close to haste as well (could not really establish which stat is now better, might also change with gear levels), but I clearly saw that Mastery is the worst stat if you play with invocation.
(and as I have mentioned above, I consider Invocation the best talent or playstyle, because of the "stack"/"mastery"-multiplier ratio)

So my estimation for a possibly new "best" arcane playstyle is the following;

Talent: Invocation
Playstyle: only spam AB from 100-10% mana, use AMissle proccs only above 50% mana, save them under 50% until after evocation + 4x AB, living bomb on cd, ignore ABarrage
rational behind this playstyle: "Stack"-multiplier has the highest uptime, evocation is used as little as possible

Secondary Stat values: Int >> Haste (until a certain cap I guess) > Crit > Mastery > Haste (after Cap),
and if I would have to give relative Values, I would estimate Int = 1, Haste (precap) = 0,45 , Crit = 0,42, Mastery = 0,37, Haste 0,32

ps: just my impression from a very limited testing series

[brirrspliff]

Ok nublets, if you are quite done getting your knickers in a twist I suggest we all calm our tits so that we can all start being constructive.

just for your info, this is NOT the right way to start a "constructive" post. i'm not even going to bother reading the rest of it. grow up, and then we'll talk.

[zomgDPS]

just for your info, this is NOT the right way to start a "constructive" post. i'm not even going to bother reading the rest of it. grow up, and then we'll talk.

Read my post history, its actually just my sense of humor.
Nothing says big posts need to always be business-business all the time.

Plus, the post was actually made in another thread first (before turned into its own thread) where, to be frank, people's knickers were in a twist and tits were uncalmed. Mages were just going on and on about how bad life is and level 90 talents and how the game sucks and how they want ponies.

So, in some sense, the context was sound. I just did a copy paste and made a new thread out of it (as per mod request btw).

So calm your tits dude. Put some ice on them, it helps...

[Soulstrike]

I have. The results were, unfortunately, not optimal.

Arcane just 'works' much better if you min/max towards a specific stat (either haste or mastery, but no mix). That being said, I am becoming less and less confident with each test in the ultimate viability of the 'classic' Arcane Haste Invocation build. It just does not seem to be able to stack up to a Mastery build right now.

I am going to squeeze some time to do some more testing, specifically targeted at those two builds. The real meat and potatoes of the answer though will lie in the viability of RoP in the new tier of raiding. I have seen most fights, but not all, and so far, RoP seems to work in almost all of them barring a very few (on the flipside, IW works in a LOT of them). If this ends up being the case for the entire raid tier and RoP becomes a viable overall pick, then Arcane Invocation Haste will go the way of the dodo.

It just gets its ass handed to it by RoP Mastery builds if used by equally skilled hands.

Though ultimately, I don't think any of this will matter. Mages will all go Fire Crit anyway.

sorry i forgot to mention rop mastery/haste mix build not invocation, i wouldve assumed haste would be almost as good as mastery if you barrage after ABx5(1 for extra dip for AM) then ABarr rotation so haste would quickly get us to 4stack faster

anyways ill get testing on 26th T.T

[zomgDPS]

ABx5(1 for extra dip for AM)

This is actually an interesting point. I was going to bring it up separately but this is as good a time as any.

The mana cost changes can be felt with the new build, more-so with the tier gear set bonus (which is what this test template demands). You actually don't want to start extra dipping, even with RoP. Heck, just a few series of non 2 AM ABx4 cycles actually leaves you at a mana deficit which is quite noticable.

If you add in an extra AB so as to 'fish' for AMs, you will be at a very serious mana deficit to the point where you will have to actually drop your next cycle or two to a sub-4 stack in order to regen mana and get stable again.

A 2 AMed cycle just barely eeks out at mana neutral. I'll try to post numbers here shortly.


As for your specific test, a mixed mastery/haste RoP build. It could be interesting to see. Though given that a pure haste RoP build is significantly lower than a pure mastery (which is a test I have run), I would assume that a mix would just be in between.
From what I can tell, the key to the RoP mastery build is the mastery itself, not so much the ABrs. Adding haste means that sure.. you get more cycles out (as well as more ABrs) but pure mastery makes those ABrs (and the entire cycle) hit that much harder.

Either way, it would be an interesting test. Ill try to run it if I can.

---------- Post added 2013-02-21 at 05:53 PM ----------

A 2 AMed cycle just barely eeks out at mana neutral. I'll try to post numbers here shortly.

Just some math to support this:


MPS of a ABx4 AM AM ABr cycle with RoP (at 0 haste coz haste is irrelevant. NOTE: this is without tier set bonus)

Mana costs:
AB0 1.67
AB1 4.17
AB2 6.67
AB3 9.17
AM 0
AM 0
ABr 1.5

Total mana spent on cycle: 23.18
Total cycle time: 13.5
Total regen during that time: 13.5 * 1.75 = 23.625

Mana Delta: 0.445

Lolwat?: what this means is that for RoP, A full ABx4 AM AM ABr cycle leaves you with a mana gain of 0.445% mana.

Now, say you get unlucky (yay! RNG), and instead do a ABx4 AM ABr cycle (i.e. you only had 1 AM proc that cycle)
Using the same calculation you are left with:

Total mana spent on cycle: 23.18
Total cycle time: 11.5
Total regen during that time: 11.5 * 1.75 = 20.125

Mana Delta: -3.055

Hence, you lose 3% mana, just because you got unlucky with RNG.


This effect magnifies with the set bonus.
What all this really means is that 'fishing' (especially with the set bonus) is a no-no. At least, fishing with ABs.

I actually have a strat where I do go fishing, but with Fireblasts instead. So far that strat is notbad.jpg.

[Bemlikanz]

This is actually an interesting point. I was going to bring it up separately but this is as good a time as any.

The mana cost changes can be felt with the new build, more-so with the tier gear set bonus (which is what this test template demands). You actually don't want to start extra dipping, even with RoP. Heck, just a few series of non 2 AM ABx4 cycles actually leaves you at a mana deficit which is quite noticable.

If you add in an extra AB so as to 'fish' for AMs, you will be at a very serious mana deficit to the point where you will have to actually drop your next cycle or two to a sub-4 stack in order to regen mana and get stable again.

A 2 AMed cycle just barely eeks out at mana neutral. I'll try to post numbers here shortly.


As for your specific test, a mixed mastery/haste RoP build. It could be interesting to see. Though given that a pure haste RoP build is significantly lower than a pure mastery (which is a test I have run), I would assume that a mix would just be in between.
From what I can tell, the key to the RoP mastery build is the mastery itself, not so much the ABrs. Adding haste means that sure.. you get more cycles out (as well as more ABrs) but pure mastery makes those ABrs (and the entire cycle) hit that much harder.

Either way, it would be an interesting test. Ill try to run it if I can.

---------- Post added 2013-02-21 at 05:53 PM ----------


Just some math to support this:


MPS of a ABx4 AM AM ABr cycle with RoP (at 0 haste coz haste is irrelevant. NOTE: this is without tier set bonus)

Mana costs:
AB0 1.67
AB1 4.17
AB2 6.67
AB3 9.17
AM 0
AM 0
ABr 1.5

Total mana spent on cycle: 23.18
Total cycle time: 13.5
Total regen during that time: 13.5 * 1.75 = 23.625

Mana Delta: 0.445

Lolwat?: what this means is that for RoP, A full ABx4 AM AM ABr cycle leaves you with a mana gain of 0.445% mana.

Now, say you get unlucky (yay! RNG), and instead do a ABx4 AM ABr cycle (i.e. you only had 1 AM proc that cycle)
Using the same calculation you are left with:

Total mana spent on cycle: 23.18
Total cycle time: 11.5
Total regen during that time: 11.5 * 1.75 = 20.125

Mana Delta: -3.055

Hence, you lose 3% mana, just because you got unlucky with RNG.


This effect magnifies with the set bonus.
What all this really means is that 'fishing' (especially with the set bonus) is a no-no. At least, fishing with ABs.

I actually have a strat where I do go fishing, but with Fireblasts instead. So far that strat is notbad.jpg.

This all will not make any difference if our spells really be nerfed for around 33%.
Arcane is so overnerfed..
But we need to note that this can change... our mana reg, may not.
So, thanks buddy!

[zomgDPS]

This all will not make any difference if our spells really be nerfed for around 33%.
Arcane is so overnerfed..
But we need to note that this can change... our mana reg, may not.

Chill brah. There is always hope.
Even if Arcane is hit hard when 5.2 drops, it won't be the end.

Arcane is the oldest school of magic. It hasn't survived this long just to get pwned by some trolls that decided to get all up in its junk.


The best part about Arcane is that its one of those specs that can seem like its down and out for the count, but then it pops all its trinkets and APs and sh!t gets real and it melts you to the ground before you can say "dafaaq?"

Hehe

[Deleted]

Arcane is the oldest school of magic. It hasn't survived this long just to get pwned by some trolls that decided to get all up in its junk.

You just made me smile, thank you.

---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 09:27 PM ----------

My testing motivation: because I can, I will

Build: Arcane | RoP | Haste
Test: 1
Result: 78-82k (did 3x 50mil test)
Strategy: Keep mana > 70%

Comment: I actually got better results with this than I did with resetting stacks. Very tricky to maintain as badly managing mana is very punishing. Especially during AP.
Also seems as if it's another way to make our worst mobility spec even less mobile.