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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    Garrosh is evil incarnate
    More like stupid incarnate.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    Garrosh is evil incarnate
    Orcish culture incarnate with a dose of insanity

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by babo7000 View Post
    Its hard to call people slaves when they willingly follow and vote im a leader that is obviously batshit insane.

    Like I said, the demon blood cursed the orcs and robbed them of free will. However, it was there own decision to follow Gul'Dan planned attack on the Draenei (with no proof of them ever plotting against the orcs), and to drink the blood because it was going to make them all the more powerful.
    The demon blood did not rob them of free will.

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Indeed. But but the only reason she had any objections about Gilneas was because she was getting stomped by the Worgen surprise. You never see her have any qualms about invading Hillsbrad, WPL, or creeping into Arathi.
    You have to remember that Garrosh barred the Forsaken from using their primary method of waging war, biological warfare. He set a venomous snake on Gilneas but took out its fangs and expected it to still take on an alpha wolf (cwutididthar?). He forced the Forsaken to fight in a way that they were not suited to and so, for a while, the battle was a shambolic slaughter. Many Forsaken died (again) for no reason. That was a very good reason for Sylvanas to object to Garrosh's direction (because it depleted her security assets) and object she did.

    As for Sylvanas' decision to secure Forsaken control of Hillsbrad, WPL and Arathi, I see little reason to object. Sure, her methods aren't the most honourable or ethical, but the Forsaken are now undeniably the majority of the people of Lordaeron. Lacking a sovereign monarch of the Menethil line, the districts of Lordaeron are rightfully theirs. So, fighting for absolute control of Hillsbrad and the Plaguelands is sensible and understandable. It's also worth noting that the Forsaken seem to have little problem with allowing living humans to continue to stay in Lordaeron as long as they adopt a policy of non-alignment. Argent Crusade settlements have been left alone by Sylvanas' forces and are free to govern their land as they see fit. The majority of humans the Forsaken are killing are Alliance-affiliated. They are killing their unabashed enemies in open warfare. I fail to see anything evil about that, especially considering the prospective human settlers at Andorhal are not even citizens of Lordaeron, but are pilgrims from Westfall and other areas, baited into travelling to Lordaeron, in order to give their leaders, Stormwind invaders, civilian targets to try and hide behind.
    And regarding Arathi, it's worth noting that the sovereign nation that previously existed in the region, Stromgarde, has essentially collapsed and ceased to exist, with one heir staying wilfully half a universe away from the city-state and the other being dead. With only pockets of people from both sides to residing in the area, it is pretty much anybody's game.

    I see little reason beyond the cruelty and ruthlessness of Forsaken war strategy to view Sylvanas' campaigns around Lordaeron as evil. I believe the Forsaken encroachment on Wildhammer territory in the Hinterlands is wrong and perhaps unnecessary (maybe causing more problems that it might solve), but we must still remember that open war has been declared between the Alliance and the Horde and battles between members of both factions are going to happen.

  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    Garrosh is evil incarnate
    Garrosh is just his dad on a power trip. Grom liked killing Alliance just as much and would probably send legions of orcs to go on a rampage if he was warchief. Thankfully he had foresight to realise he wouldn't make a good warchief and was content with being chieftain.

  6. #286
    Humans and night elves are the evul ones for sure.

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodeus View Post
    Humans and night elves are the evul ones for sure.

    ahahahaah ..... r u playing WoW m8 ?

  8. #288
    Forsaken, plain and simple. Post-WOTLK they have become an entirely one dimensional race who revel in the cruelty/depravity they inflict among others, whilst remaining in their delusion that their Banshee Queen cares about them any more than she would care about a means to an end; her end being the 'darkness' that awaits her after death, and her means of avoiding it being her own people.

    Boring and indefensible race, quite frankly.

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robutt View Post
    And regarding Arathi, it's worth noting that the sovereign nation that previously existed in the region, Stromgarde, has essentially collapsed and ceased to exist, with one heir staying wilfully half a universe away from the city-state and the other being dead. With only pockets of people from both sides to residing in the area, it is pretty much anybody's game.
    It does still rightfully belong to the people of Stromgarde and the Trollbane family. There is still a royal and his subjects regardless of the state of them.

    The fact the Forsaken are after is the evidence that their campaign is not at it's core about reclaiming their own fallen kingdom. It shows their own hypocrisy in their motives.
    It's not exactly easy to put into words, but you can't use the logic that the Forsaken are in the right to claim places like WPL because it was part of the Kingdom of Lordaeron, while pretending that those of Stromgarde do not have the same right to their own land.
    This is the problem with the current motive with the Forsaken and it's part of the reason I dislike the writing in their current story. One moment they're trying to ask for sympathy because they were citizens of Lordaeron and just want their land back during the Silverpine quest line, the next their invading somebody else's land to claim it as their own.

    Their advances into Arathi and the Hinterlands are just wrong. Their advances into ex-Lordaeron zones is understandable, the methods though are not.


    Also - in before "All land is troll land" .
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-02-17 at 03:31 PM.

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    So in short: Humans don't like being turned into Forsaken, but are completely fine after they are ressed while not being mind-controlled at all.

    Doesn't seem like something evil at all.
    They've been mentally corrupted to be okay with it. That's bad/evil/negative or whatever description we shall use because of subjectivity. Altering somebody physically and mentally isn't exactly a kind action.

  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    So in short: Humans don't like being turned into Forsaken, but are completely fine after they are ressed while not being mind-controlled at all.

    Doesn't seem like something evil at all.
    And that is exactly what we are discussing in this thread: 'Who is evil?'
    I will agree that they did some nasty stuff to the Alliance, but it's a war after all.
    Comparing them to the Scourge, the Old Gods or the Burning Legion is ridiculous.


    Necromancy is still necromancy and still isn't something 'evil' in the universe of Warcraft.

    Talking about hypocrisy..
    You are first yelling that she does the same as Arthas and when I proof that she doesn't, you start on something else.


    Well, I will put it down in Layman's term.
    Ressing someone as a Banshee hurts, that's why they scream all the time.
    Ressing someone as a Forsaken doesn't hurt, most Forsaken are pretty okay with it.
    +1 ! True ! Raising dead human as Forsaken isnt an evil act ! I cant remember any1 complain about it except Lillian Voss, but her care is different one as her father is the hand of forsaken destruction ! Sylvanas makes sure her people wont extinct as they cant breed or smth like that .. they simply die ! She has to use necromancery in order to keep Forsaken in sufficient numbers

  12. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    It does still rightfully belong to the people of Stromgarde and the Trollbane family. There is still a royal and his subjects regardless of the state of them.

    The fact the Forsaken are after is the evidence that their campaign is not at it's core about reclaiming their own fallen kingdom. It shows their own hypocrisy in their motives.

    It's not exactly easy to put into words, but you can't use the logic that the Forsaken are in the right to claim places like WPL because it was part of the Kingdom of Lordaeron, while pretending that those of Stromgarde do not have the same right to their own land thus making the Forsaken as the wrongful invaders.

    This is the problem with the current motive with the Forsaken and it's part of the reason I dislike the writing in their current story. One moment they're trying to ask for sympathy because they were citizens of Lordaeron and just want their land back during the Silverpine quest line, the next their invading somebody else's land to claim it as their own.


    Also - in before "All land is troll land" .
    "We Amani was 'ere before anywun!!" xD

    I'll admit that the right is still with the citizens of Stromgarde, though just how much of the Arathi Highlands was under their control before the Third War is hard to say, same can be said of parts of the Hinterlands (save for the poor trolls!). But, the difference in legitimacy I see between the Forsaken claim to Lordaeron and the Strom claim to Arathor is that the Lordaeron 'survivors' are much more unified, more numerous and have assembled a government more stable and effective than the scattered survivors of Strom and their local militias. Plus, their numbers are blurred and bolstered by forces from other human nations who wish to make a grab for the broken husks of nations left after the fall of Lordaeron, country and continent.

    You're right, though. At the end of the day, right is still on the side of the people of Strom (at least, to Stromgarde and whatever territory that entailed). But, the Forsaken presence there is, I propose, more excusable than the Alliance presence in the Plaguelands, especially when humans are free to settle there under the protection of the non-aligned Argent Crusade. (It's worth noting that as Danath has shown little motivation to reclaim his homeland, it is possible that he gave up his claim to leadership and entrusted Stromgarde to his cousin, the heir-apparent, Galen, who just so happens to now be an undead member of the Forsaken. A cheap point, I know, considering the way he was "recruited", but one worth noting. )

    I know what you mean about Forsaken motives at the moment, and I too sometimes feel like Forsaken lore direction and societal development is a bit all over the place. But, with the Lich King dead, I don't think they are a sympathy case any more and for the most part, in-game anyway, I don't think they try to be. I think their general train of thought now is, "Piss off out of Lordaeron (the nation), if you're with the Alliance, and we'll wait for further orders from the Dark Lady to see what we'll do about the rest of the continent.".
    Last edited by mmocf558c230a5; 2013-02-17 at 03:45 PM.

  13. #293
    Forsaken are more evil than Orcs, but Garrosh is more evil than Forsaken. How's that?

  14. #294
    I am Murloc! Velshin's Avatar
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    Neither races are evil. Sure there are few exceptions like Gul'dan, and Putress that are indeed very evil. The races overall are not evil they are doing what is neccessary to survive. Similar to how tigers and lions are eating other animals in the wild to survive are their method savage and brutal? yes but are they evil? nope they just want to survive in this world.

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    And where is your proof that they have been mentally altered?
    We know those afflicted with Undeath are either incapable or find it difficult to feel positive emotions. We also know that they develop a craving for Human flesh. The Forsaken also have consistently displayed a lack of morality, or they simply just don't care but what can be agreed upon is that their moral scope is not the same as when they were Human which is pretty obvious.

    At it's core it boils down to the fact the Forsaken are almost incapable of feeling anything positive which as they've displayed seems to prevent them from acting in ways that would considered moral by others or even their living selves.

  16. #296
    There are quite a few good orcs, and quite a few bad orcs. There are a lot of bad orcs right now!

    There are very very few good Forsaken, and many many bad Forsaken. Statistically, as a percentage, Forsaken are more evil.

    The Forsaken rarely do anything good. They are almost always trying to do something terrible.


    If I were really on Azeroth, I would certainly Crusade to end the Forsaken. Even if I were a Horde. Forsaken are honorless scum, and Azeroth certainly doesn't need them.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Their sole purpose was revenge against the LK. Once that happened, their sole purpose is survival. Sylvanas saw a vision of the future where they were invaded and exterminated by the Alliance. They are just securing their territory to ensure their survival.

    Their methods may be sinister and taken too far on the torture, but they are doing it for self preservation.
    While I agree that they're doing it for self preservation; what they're doing is wrong. The forsaken hate the fact that they're, well, undead. They don't take pride in the fact that they bent over to Arthas not too long ago. They're doing exactly what Arthas was doing to them to others, and while it is ''all for self preservation'' it still doesn't excuse the fact that they're hypocritical on their own choices.

  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    No they're not. It's Garrosh.

    The Orcs wouldn't do anything if it wasn't for that fuckwad.
    Yeah, like he's alone forcing every single orc to do his bidding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    The demon blood did not rob them of free will.
    Not more than an injection of pure testosterone mixed with radioactive heroine. Rabies and roofies technically do not take away free will, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    We know those afflicted with Undeath are either incapable or find it difficult to feel positive emotions. We also know that they develop a craving for Human flesh. The Forsaken also have consistently displayed a lack of morality, or they simply just don't care but what can be agreed upon is that their moral scope is not the same as when they were Human which is pretty obvious.

    At it's core it boils down to the fact the Forsaken are almost incapable of feeling anything positive which as they've displayed seems to prevent them from acting in ways that would considered moral by others or even their living selves.
    Their amorality stems from the fact that they have experienced death. Their hormones no longer work, because they are no longer alive, hence the supposed lack of emotionality, both positive and negative. For someone who is undead, pain and misery of others is laughable compared to what the undead himself has been through. It's like mandatory conscription: most people fear it, but once you've been through this shit, you laugh at them.
    Last edited by Haven; 2013-02-18 at 12:04 AM.

  19. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbandonThread View Post
    While I agree that they're doing it for self preservation; what they're doing is wrong. The forsaken hate the fact that they're, well, undead. They don't take pride in the fact that they bent over to Arthas not too long ago. They're doing exactly what Arthas was doing to them to others, and while it is ''all for self preservation'' it still doesn't excuse the fact that they're hypocritical on their own choices.
    Most Forsaken are either resigned to or don't terribly mind it. If you do the first five quests in the new Forsaken starter zone, you see the four major schools of thought among newly-risen Forsaken: acceptance, refusal, denial, and insanity. Forsaken who accept their new status have a period of disorientation and terror, but calm down and resolve to make the best of their situation. Forsaken who refuse the second life are allowed to return to death, as seen on occasion when one of the other val'kyr raise a body and they demand to be allowed to return to their rest. Forsaken in denial have trouble accepting that they're undead, and if they refuse to join Sylvanas, are allowed to go on their way unmolested so long as they don't mobilize against the Forsaken--those who do, like the Rotbrains, are dealt with swiftly and efficiently. Some Forsaken simply get unhinged by their revival, and go mad, like Marshal Redpath. Whether these join the Forsaken or deny their offer tends to be up to the individual in question.

    CDev also noted that newly-risen Forsaken tend to be suggestible, and sufficiently-charismatic individuals like the player character, Sylvanas, or val'kyr can get them to mobilize as seen in Silverpine and the Western Plaguelands, but this state is rarely permanent and once they reassert themselves, they're given the same offer all others are.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  20. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    I reject the premise of the question. Neither are evil.
    The races themselves are not evil however their leaders are defining the race.

    Garrosh is a giant war-loving idiot.

    Sylvanas on the other hand is just looking for a way to continue her people.

    In the end I think both races are full of idiots not evil.

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