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  1. #361
    this is a great idea.. like its been said all heroic bosses should have limited attempts..that way u can show whos smart enough to kill it and who just has way more time to spending wiping on 100+ tries... separates the best from the carried.

  2. #362
    special heroic only boss, guaranteed to drop the thunderforged gear, limited attempts seems sensible - at least a whole lot more sensible than 1 hour per week a'la alagalon.

    i dont see the problem, he's the only boss getting limited attempts and lorewise, it seems pretty freaking epic.


    in terms of progression and raid framework, i think blizz have done a top notch job in MoP. there haven't been any major raid content changes or alternative progression systems that horrifically undermine your previous efforts. patch 5.0 was all about getting your main setup in pandaria, 5.1 was level up the alts time, now with 5.2 it's alt raid time. (unless ofc you're in a hardcore or at least semi progression focused guild)
    Last edited by smokii; 2013-02-20 at 10:49 AM.
    <insert witty signature here>

  3. #363
    Deleted
    Inc 1 shot!

  4. #364
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    And that is exactly the only thing it does.

    p.s. I am not going to read through 15 pages, sorry. I also don't see any 'counters' here.
    If you're not going to read at least some of the thread your post is worthless. DO you really think you're so special that your points haven't already been raised? Here are your counters:

    1) "important phone call" This simply isn't an issue for the people doing this. We're talking the top few guilds in the world, not little Joey who has to chat with his girlfriend every night. Sure, rare emergencies could happen (house on fire, etc) but those are called rare for a reason.

    2) You want competition? This provides it. It's no different than games having set lengths for their playing periods. Pick your sport and they all have limits. Field size is limited. Play time is limited. Doing 500 attempts to kill something in a week is possible only when there are no limits. Limits prove skill here and in sports. Soccer (football) doesn't ask 'who can score the most goals' but 'Which team will score more in a 90 minute period?' This does the same thing. Not "Who can kill him" but "WHo can kill him with only 30 tries per week?"

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 05:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    I also don't see what the amount of players being able to kill Ra'den has anything to do with this. "It's the minority so saying anything negative doesn't count." Best argument ever.
    Because 99.9% of us don't care. It doesn't affect us at all and never will this patch or even this expansion. It might be an issue that's important to you if you're in, say, a top 100 world guild but do you really think most of the people complaining about this are in guilds like that? I don't. They're bitching just to bitch and it's kind of tiresome.

    I kind of like this - it evens the field by creating a constraint and making guilds view attempts as precious and not just a matter of who can sit at the computer the longest. To me, it's no different than limiting the number of downs in American football (you have 4 possible attempts to move 10 yards and if you fail, you give the ball to your opponent at that spot).

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnx- View Post
    More like 99% but yea the point is the same.
    I imagine that it's more like 99.99%. I'm sure the attempt counter will be lifted after 2-3 months, which is how long it'll take anyone other than the .01 percenters to get there.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    I don't get it. Why do they keep insisting on limiting players ability to play? Valor cap, rep cap, limited attempts.
    And what did Blizzard think this time? Let's give limited attempts another shot? If it worked so great during ToC/ICC then why don't we see it in every raid?
    Are you in a world first guild? Is anyone in this thread?

    Do you have any idea how many times they will wipe on a single boss in one week during progression? Believe me after 300 wipes on Lei Shi I doubt they'll really be pissy that they only got 30 on Ra-Den...

    I swear, people are just looking for an excuse to get mad. Even a totally illogical one will do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  7. #367
    I think for the competitive groups that will reach Ra-den the fastest it wouldn't matter too much. They are competing with other groups with the same limited attempts so the group with better quality attempts (and possibly luck) will get him down first.

    For the rest of the guilds that will reach the boss much later, they will have a LOT more info about the boss which will reduce the number of attempts actually needed to kill the boss, and possibly the removal of the limited attempts so it should only be a minor issue.


    You can still bang your head against the wall for the rest of the raid which has a solid 12 bosses in it . (solid as in amount of bosses)


    Not THAT big of a deal imo :/

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by BLSTMASTER View Post
    You can still bang your head against the wall for the rest of the raid which has a solid 12 bosses in it . (solid as in amount of bosses)

    Not THAT big of a deal imo :/
    Yes, for the "normal" hardcore players there will be the usual brick wall bosses and Ra'den will be a completely hypothetical entity for many weeks.

    Without upgrades to provide a "soft nerf" to hard modes it could be many, many weeks.

  9. #369
    The intent of Ra-Den is to be insanely difficult. Most heroic guilds should not consider him a part of progression.
    Blue post from today. Few days ago we had a post saying how Lei-Shen is more challenging fight. Don't know what to expect now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No, I'm roundly rejecting your idea that LFR isn't raiding.
    The raiding scene is larger than in wrath - because LFR is raiding. It replaces the pugs that were a feature of Wotlk.
    Tell you what, I remove LFR and you remove pugs.
    What the actual f...

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Blue post from today. Few days ago we had a post saying how Lei-Shen is more challenging fight. Don't know what to expect now.
    Heard it all before, both sinestra and algalon were easier then bosses some in their tier, dont expect this to be different.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Blue post from today. Few days ago we had a post saying how Lei-Shen is more challenging fight. Don't know what to expect now.
    They are implying it will be Algalon style - relatively simple mechanics with an enrage timer so tight you have to be a world first guild to get it down in the first few weeks.

    Algalon was much simpler than Yogg in terms of his mechanics but far more difficult in terms of tuning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuckels View Post
    Heard it all before, both sinestra and algalon were easier then bosses some in their tier, dont expect this to be different.
    Not true at all. Algalon and Sinestra are very different fights. Once you outgear Algalon his mechanics are trivial, Sinestra on the other hand was brutally difficult even if you vastly outgeared her. Sinestra was far and away the most difficult boss of T11. Two very different kinds of "optional heroic only boss".
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Not true at all. Algalon and Sinestra are very different fights. Once you outgear Algalon his mechanics are trivial, Sinestra on the other hand was brutally difficult even if you vastly outgeared her. Sinestra was far and away the most difficult boss of T11. Two very different kinds of "optional heroic only boss".
    Uh... Ascendant Council was way harder then sinestra, and you could not outgear algalon while it was current tier?

    edit: and Sinestra was a joke once you outgeared her because the essence of the red (or w/e that was called, pretty sure thats vaels buff lol) buff woudnt even drop off in the final phase.
    Last edited by Nuckels; 2013-02-25 at 01:02 AM.

  13. #373
    Maybe Ra-Den will be insanely difficult and H Lei Shen will be even MORE insanely difficult. Like OMGWTFQQBLIZZHOWCULDUCREATESUCHAMONSTROSITYOFABOSS.

    lol Just a thought there.

    I think the top guilds will adapt as appropriate and we'll see a Ra-den kill within the first 3 weeks of Heroic being open at the latest. Then guides and strats will trickle out with kill videos and the guilds that get to him later will be very careful with their pulls. Or it'll be bugged to hell and the attempt limit will be removed.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuckels View Post
    Uh... Ascendant Council was way harder then sinestra, and you could not outgear algalon while it was current tier?

    edit: and Sinestra was a joke once you outgeared her because the essence of the red (or w/e that was called, pretty sure thats vaels buff lol) buff woudnt even drop off in the final phase.
    Algalon was killed in 3 hours, even with all the bugs they had to face. I'm going to guess Sinestra was not. Sinestra was a significantly more complex fight than Algalon. They were most definitely very different optional bosses. Algalon was a fairly simple but tightly tuned extra boss with an interesting gimmick in the timer, Sinestra was essentially just the end-boss for heroic guilds.

  15. #375
    I like the 30 limit tries per week, Stops people raiding 7 days a week and doing however many tries a week they want, Now its more down to skill (and hoping RnG doesnt screw you over)
    Means people can do the 30 tries and take the rest of the week off, Stopping burn out for some people. Worked well with Lich King Heroic in my opinion, and its better system then Algalon, so glad to see something like this again

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Xevarc View Post
    I like the 30 limit tries per week, Stops people raiding 7 days a week and doing however many tries a week they want, Now its more down to skill (and hoping RnG doesnt screw you over)
    Means people can do the 30 tries and take the rest of the week off, Stopping burn out for some people. Worked well with Lich King Heroic in my opinion, and its better system then Algalon, so glad to see something like this again
    Why do people need blizzard to force them to stop progressing, surely most of us can decide for ourselfs how much we want to raid, self control?

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuckels View Post
    Why do people need blizzard to force them to stop progressing, surely most of us can decide for ourselfs how much we want to raid, self control?
    You can raid all you want to for as many attempts on Ra'Den as you want, as long as you don't mind progressing more alts through heroic modes. That sounds like enough to keep you busy. I mean it should be no trouble to go 11/12 HM on a few alts after one or maybe two lockouts, right?

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Secrecy View Post
    Algalon was killed in 3 hours, even with all the bugs they had to face. I'm going to guess Sinestra was not. Sinestra was a significantly more complex fight than Algalon. They were most definitely very different optional bosses. Algalon was a fairly simple but tightly tuned extra boss with an interesting gimmick in the timer, Sinestra was essentially just the end-boss for heroic guilds.
    But his point is still valid, Sinestra wasn't the hardest boss in the tier :P

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuckels View Post
    Why do people need blizzard to force them to stop progressing, surely most of us can decide for ourselfs how much we want to raid, self control?
    I tend to believe it has very little to do with "stopping our progression" and "self control" considering they aren't gating the content.

    Feels much more like they're just "leveling the playing field" - which mostly applies to giving non-5+night guilds a fighting chance to pickup some ranking on an extremely difficult boss (let's hope so!)

  20. #380
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuckels View Post
    Why do people need blizzard to force them to stop progressing, surely most of us can decide for ourselfs how much we want to raid, self control?
    Pick a sport. Any sport. Competition is leveled by imposing limits. Games last a set time and then whoever has scored more during that time wins. There aren't many (any?) sports where you just play as long as you want and if the other team has to leave or isn't in condition to keep playing, you win.

    Ra'den is like this - it's a test of skill, not endurance. Take two guilds, one which kills him in 78 attempts spread over 3 weeks, another than kills him in 308 attempts in one long week. Which guild is better? I think most woujld agree that the first guild is more skilled.

    Now let's say that the first guild can't raid as much as the second for some reason... in that case the second guild would get a world first even though I think most would agree that they're not as skilled as the guild that only took 78 tries to kill him. They 'win' not because they're better but because they can spend more time trying him.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-02-25 at 10:10 PM.

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