Want to tank? Queue as one or roll one!

[Redmage]

Speed doesn't make you a good tank. No matter how many times you say it does, it's not going to be true.

In terms of heroics / 5mans, yeah it kind of does. Assuming you are not pulling more then you can tank or your healer can keep you up through. Know your limitations and those of your group, and pull as fast as those limitations allow = good tank.

[Grumash]

Speed doesn't make you a good tank. No matter how many times you say it does, it's not going to be true.

Not dying and keeping aggro is probably #1 to being a good tank. After that, it IS speed that determines if you are good.

EG: If a tank can pull an instance successfully faster than a different tank, that means he is more likely to pick up adds in a raid faster, or react to mechanics faster (notice the whole 'faster' argument).

Or look at challenge modes, what is the main ranking of CM's? Time, or in other words SPEED. If you have a slow tank, you have a bad tank for CM's, raids, and some heroics. Dont think that this argument applies because raids and CM's are different? Raids and CM's are at the pinnacle of PvE, which is what these lower level dungeons are meant to prepare you for.

[Frozenbeef]

i tried leveling a pure tank...i started some easy dungeons rfc, deadmines etc and was constantly told to speedup or i wasn't making enough agro so i just rerolled healer...it's actually rather nice being on the side lines of battles people tend to put all the blame on the tank/ dps and ignore me which makes me happier :S

[Grumash]

i tried leveling a pure tank...i started some easy dungeons rfc, deadmines etc and was constantly told to speedup or i wasn't making enough agro so i just rerolled healer...it's actually rather nice being on the side lines of battles people tend to put all the blame on the tank/ dps and ignore me which makes me happier :S

Yeah, id say tank isnt a noobfriendly role X)

I do want to ask, do you prefer a faster tank or a slower tank, assuming neither pulls more than can be handled?

[Mackeyser]

Traditionally, it is. Tanks own the group. They set the pace. They are the vital piece in the group. The whole design of the game is asymmetrical set up to make the tank and healer roles more important.

One of the benefits of being DPS is that you have absolutely no responsibility. Especially in these low level dungeons, you spam one button. Tanks have almost all the responsibility. So let them learn the most important part of their role: responsibility.

My main is a pure DPS class in almost full 509 gear, and I would never think of pulling mobs the tank didn't pull. At its base it's just poor manners and disrespectful of his role in the group.

QFT. As a Vanilla player and raider since BC in all 3 roles, but mostly MT, I really feel for new tanks.

They get crapped on left and right and then when especially dps get to 90, they bitch about long Dungeon queues.

Well, honestly, why in hell should anyone sign up for the "gogogo" abuse? Every tank is a person, a fellow player. Moreover, every other tank I've spoken with and especially every tank I've spoken with who's uttered that familiar phrase, "I only tank for guildies" cite the absurd levels of trollish behaviors that are expected to be suffered in dungeons as the reason why they are absent from tanking.

I generally only tank for guildies. Now that I have what I need from the LFR, I refuse to tank it. I only do what I have to and begrudgingly so because of the way tanks are treated. And I keep seeing them crapped on when I queue as dps, so it's not like this is personal. I'd return to tanking if the vibe changed because I like tanking. Heck, I've got 4 tanks. I really like it, actually. I'm just too old for the trolling mess. (Murtaugh rule)

No tank is OBLIGED nor is any dps ENTITLED to anything other than some cooperative play. The idea that anyone, dps, heals or tanks has paid for the privilege of being an ass (or worse) to other players and that those players should in any way indulge that poor behavior is beyond misguided.

THAT was one thing about BC that I really liked. If you crapped all over tanks as dps, or got too big of a head as a tank or let people die for petty reasons as a healer, word got out. There were consequences. Now there are no consequences for poor behavior and we have douchebagguery run amok.

Thus, the same dps, for example, can justify in one thread treating any tank who doesn't cater to his/her personal desires poorly as justified since, "hey, I've got stuff to do" while in the next thread complain about long queue times as if the two weren't related.

We will grow more and better new tanks (as well as healers) AND see the return of skilled tanks to dungeons when the WoW community starts treating one another with more respect, compassion and humility. Until then, leveling as a tank will be an exercise in frustration and playing a tank will be something one only does with friends.

---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 12:05 AM ----------

It really does mean you're not pulling fast enough imo. When I'm leveling my alts through dungeons I want to be chain pulling at absurd speeds. I have no interest in anything that happens between character creation and max level when I'm working on 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 8th, 11th alts. It's all about speed and efficiency.

So, what about the first time player in your group? What if that tank is a new tank who is making a genuine effort to learn how to play?

We see so many criticisms of "noobs" and "baddies", but what about NEW players? Are they supposed to just step aside because you've "been there, done that?" Your time is more valuable than theirs? They shouldn't be allowed their first time experience because you want to get to max level asap?

See, what you're saying is all about you. And "all about you" doesn't work in a cooperative game. It's why there are so many tensions and systems like LFD and LFR are so clunky right now.

Since when did selfishness become a celebrated virtue?

[Redmage]

QFT.

-snip-

See, what you're saying is all about you. And "all about you" doesn't work in a cooperative game. It's why there are so many tensions and systems like LFD and LFR are so clunky right now.

Since when did selfishness become a celebrated virtue?

So wait, you agree that tanks own the group then accuse him of being selfish, what the literal fuck.

[Grumash]

So, what about the first time player in your group? What if that tank is a new tank who is making a genuine effort to learn how to play?

We see so many criticisms of "noobs" and "baddies", but what about NEW players? Are they supposed to just step aside because you've "been there, done that?" Your time is more valuable than theirs? They shouldn't be allowed their first time experience because you want to get to max level asap?

I can see the worth in this argument, maybe blizz should put a 'pair me with other new players' button, or something. Im sure they could have a grand old time going at a slower pace.

Me I just want my alt to hit 90.

Oh, in response to your value of time remark, EVERYONE is going to value their time higher than a strangers, unless you have the charity level of christ, but gl with that.

[Mackeyser]

Traditionally, tanks RAN the group if that verb helps things along.

Yes, I think OWN is too strong. In that I would agree with you. However, I still agree with eschat that traditionally Tanks "ran" the group. Moreover, in the Tank/DPS/Healer triumvirate, the Tank is the tip of the spear and the focal point of the action and responsible for the group since he/she directly interacts with the mobs and/or boss.

I don't know that it can be argued that tanks have more responsibility than any other role. They do. Moreover, I would agree that the MMO triad does create greater importance on tanks and healers than dps. I think that Blizz has overall done a pretty good job of making dps' role important with dps check type fights, add fights and other mechanics that require the dps to either contribute a lot of dps or bring their utility such as interrupts or CC in order to defeat the encounter.

So, we've seen two things lately.

1) tanks complaining about what they feel is unwarranted abuse.

2) dps complaining about long queue times.

I've ventured that the two are not only not unrelated, but that they are causally related. 1 causes 2.

So, you can get hung up on a verb if you like, but that'd be missing the forest for the trees. The point stands. Blizz can't change the community and even handing out goody bags doesn't seem to be fixing the long queue times for dps.

My suggestion has been that maybe, just maybe the WoW community could take on the spirit of cooperation and encourage tanks rather than treat them like rented mules.

It's just a suggestion. People will do what they're going to do. I'm far too old to think a forum post will change the way someone will behave except in the rarest of instances.

---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 12:47 AM ----------

I can see the worth in this argument, maybe blizz should put a 'pair me with other new players' button, or something. Im sure they could have a grand old time going at a slower pace.

Me I just want my alt to hit 90.

Oh, in response to your value of time remark, EVERYONE is going to value their time higher than a strangers, unless you have the charity level of christ, but gl with that.

Actually, I try to default to the new player if I can.

Why? Because first times only come once. If someone says, "hey I just started playing and this is my first dungeon", I go through it and let them hear and watch all the dialog and the whole 9 yards if they want.

Yeah, I've been playing since vanilla and I catch myself getting a tinge jaded at times, but if the game isn't going to stagnate into oblivion, it will be with new players who actually LIKE the game. There's a lot to like.

Firsts should be fun and at least kinda cool. At the very least, the experience should leave the player wanting to try other dungeons. More than half of the new players I've talked to since Cata only did one or two dungeons and didn't do another until max level because of bad experiences. That's anecdotal, but it jibes with what I know about how so many WoW vets level.

I dunno about a "button". Maybe there could be a "Lorewalker" option that would affect not only queues but other aspects of the game as well. The Lorewalker enabled would be for those who wanted the background on quests, for example or could get more info from certain quest givers AND for queues would attempt to queue people with those who preferred to quest/clear the dungeon versus speed clear the place.

Frustration is merely unmet expectation. I guess it's reasonable for the WoW vet to be frustrated for a lowbie dungeon run to take 30+ minutes when they expected less than half that because everyone else is new just as it would be reasonable for a new player to be frustrated at being rushed and missing all of the content they'd hoped to see once finally in their first dungeon.

Best answer is communication and compromise and the community working it out without Blizz doing anything, but in the absence of that, yeah, maybe a button or a setting that'd at least put folks of the same expectation together...

[Deleted]

The only thing I can advise new players playing tanks is that if you don't like the challenge offered to you by these types of groups, you shouldn't tank 5 man content. You should just see it as a challenge to be going fast enough so people won't complain or start pulling for you. After a while you'll find yourself moving so fast that you're locking people out of boss-fights and getting complaints about going too fast. At which point the gogo dps'ers will have your back and flame the shit out of the slower one. The truth about 5 man content today is that it is so shockingly easy there really is no reason to take it slow.

Just be prepared that if you do everything right and do 60% of all damage done, the only compliment you'll get is them asking you to re-queue.

[neanoa]

Your pet peeve is this, other peoples pet peeve is slow tanks who act like they own the group.



In my experience they blame the healer.



Might makes right, good argument /sarcasm



because everyone should just do everything the tank says? its not a dictatorship.



They don't have one, if they are pulling off of you, you are just failing (hard truth bro)



I don't know, how do we encourage pompous tanks to just shut up and pull? and it became the norm around wrath when blizzard made dungeons less dangerous, back in vanilla / bc when a dungeon elite would one shot a clothie and you needed to use CC on every pull people played nicer.



I think you are not considering that many of them probably do have tanks classes and are used to pulling at their pace, so when people fart around it pisses them off.



Bingo.

You sound just like the type of people I votekick.

It doesn't matter how fast I pull - there will always be certain type of retards that thinks it's alright for them to run ahead while 2 mobs are left from previous pack and pull the next. Or they simply think it's wise for them to pull just to use their silly proc of some sort.

Speed is irrelevant to these idiots. The worst thing is that if you people - and I say you, because you come off as this type of player, would just let the tanks and healers go at the pace they are comfortable and capeable of - the dungeon would go a lot smoother and nicer.

If your time is too precious to spend an additional 5-10mins in a dungeon run, perhaps you shouldn't be playing.

[Herrenos]

You sound just like the type of people I votekick.

It doesn't matter how fast I pull - there will always be certain type of retards that thinks it's alright for them to run ahead while 2 mobs are left from previous pack and pull the next. Or they simply think it's wise for them to pull just to use their silly proc of some sort.

Speed is irrelevant to these idiots. The worst thing is that if you people - and I say you, because you come off as this type of player, would just let the tanks and healers go at the pace they are comfortable and capeable of - the dungeon would go a lot smoother and nicer.

If your time is too precious to spend an additional 5-10mins in a dungeon run, perhaps you shouldn't be playing.

Or you could just speed up. Non-heroic dungeon bosses don't need tank cooldowns. If you're not pulling so much that you have to use cooldowns on trash you're being lazy and selfish. That's 2 to 5 packs depending on the dungeon and level. YOU should be running off to pull when there's 2 mobs left so the dps doesn't have to. When I DPS a dungeon I give it 100% and I expect my tanks to do the same. When I tank a dungeon I go as hard as I can so my DPS can get what they need and move on.

[Tumble]

As far as speed, I go at the pace I know my healer can handle. If I'm in there with my wife, I can pull pack after pack after pack and only take a break when she says hey stop. If im in a random group I check the healer, if they are in good gear, I pull fast, if they are new, I slow down, use my CD's accordingly and have a good time. The GO GO GO attitude from dps always gives me the shits, if you want to run faster than at an almost non-stop pace, lvl a tank yourself and have fun.

[Sigmatism]

Stop pulling so slow. And don't be one of those tanks who mark mobs to kill. And don't pull slow. Pausing between pulls when the healer is at 80% mana makes me want to play a role I hate just so I can do it the way I like.

[Mackeyser]

Or you could just speed up. Non-heroic dungeon bosses don't need tank cooldowns. If you're not pulling so much that you have to use cooldowns on trash you're being lazy and selfish. That's 2 to 5 packs depending on the dungeon and level. YOU should be running off to pull when there's 2 mobs left so the dps doesn't have to. When I DPS a dungeon I give it 100% and I expect my tanks to do the same. When I tank a dungeon I go as hard as I can so my DPS can get what they need and move on.

Wait. Let me get this straight. So, the ONLY way to play is to "go as hard as you can"? There is NO other way to play without you justifying your behavior because you think the tank is being lazy and selfish because they aren't playing how YOU think they should be playing?

And are those the binary choices, "go as hard as you can" or "lazy and selfish"??? There can't be anyone who simply might enjoy an easy run or a fun run or a stress free run? I would put forth that there is more than one way to enjoy a dungeon.

I just for the life of me do not understand that sense of entitlement that some people have that they believe others must behave in a manner that solely benefits themselves.

You wanna go fast and the tank wants to go medium speed. Your answer is what? Pull for him/her and give him or her a hard time for not playing like you want them to play?

Yeah, I really must be getting old because I just cannot see how one justifies THAT kind of selfishness. Then how one turns the tables and can accuse anyone not wanting to play the game within one player's narrow definition of "right" of being selfish.

Newsflash: no one owes anyone a fast run. Want an 8 min run, form a guild group or a group from friends. If you're in LFD, part of that should come the inherent understanding that folks there might actually need the gear, might not know the instance, might not overgear the instance and might be trying a new spec among a bunch of possible reasons why others in the group might either not want or not be capable of supporting a fast run.

LFD could and should be a chance to meet new players of all skill levels from lots of different servers. Unfortunately, it's treated as a valor cap grind and anyone in the way of that grind is treated as they impediment they are seen as.

[MrExcelion]

MoP heroics are approaching Wrath heroic levels with the relative ease and stat inflation, if they aren't there already. Bosses should start dying in 15 seconds like Wrath ones when 522 rep gear is available to everyone. It's a different mindset than in the past, but unless you're in with a group of people who haven't done it before, usually you can chain pull. I remember doing Heroic Magister's Terrace runs once a day for the mount. Even with T6 and careful but fast pulling we couldn't get it below 20 mins. Now heroics take 15 mins tops, unless you get Shado-Pan.

[Hyve]

That's most likely the reason.

I'm the sort of tank that constantly pulls things, and there is always something going on. I do large group pulls, and we AoE them down and before they're all dead, the next pact is coming at us.

Despite this, I still find that DPS seem to pull for me, which actually (as a Death Knight) is really annoying as my Runes / Cooldowns are not available. I've made it so I know exactly what I need to pull, how often and what abilities to use to ensure the next pack, I can do it all over again.

I've done some of the fastest runs, and even people mention how fast the run was, but still there is always that one DPS who just thinks it can go that 1 mob faster ...

[Deleted]

im a fairly good tank, (15/16 hc 10 man) but doing a hc 5 man, and the hunter (example) just mass pulls infront of me, i tend to just stay there and watch them die slowly, even if the healer is good and keeping them alive, its better the healer go oom then.. aslong they die.. or if im in a bad mood, i tend to just leave, cuz i cant use anything from there anyway :/


Btw to the poster above me, im a DK aswell, i know your pain... not funny when they do that..

[Hyve]

Btw to the poster above me, im a DK aswell, i know your pain... not funny when they do that..

Aye. It isn't cool. If I could physically pull more, I would, but I don't have the runes to Blood Boil / DND the next pact, so when they DO pull, and they die, they tend to rage and not listen to the fact that I am completely useless until I actually have runes ...

[Deleted]

Aye. It isn't cool. If I could physically pull more, I would, but I don't have the runes to Blood Boil / DND the next pact, so when they DO pull, and they die, they tend to rage and not listen to the fact that I am completely useless until I actually have runes ...

sometimes i tend to just nerdrage in my raids when people complain over that :P y'know, completely just go apeshit and insane so people realize it lol

[Tapzer]

You sound just like the type of people I votekick.

It doesn't matter how fast I pull - there will always be certain type of retards that thinks it's alright for them to run ahead while 2 mobs are left from previous pack and pull the next. Or they simply think it's wise for them to pull just to use their silly proc of some sort.

Speed is irrelevant to these idiots. The worst thing is that if you people - and I say you, because you come off as this type of player, would just let the tanks and healers go at the pace they are comfortable and capeable of - the dungeon would go a lot smoother and nicer.

If your time is too precious to spend an additional 5-10mins in a dungeon run, perhaps you shouldn't be playing.

I was doing some dungeons on my tank earlier, Dizzying Hazex2+ Keg Smash + Breath of fire, repeat on next group. I never stop moving when i tank in my dungeons.