Verdict on Guild Wars 2's innovations

[Valeron]

the name of the game has always been the biggest misconception among players

[Deleted]

Player guilds [i.e. modern guilds] are an extension of the old feudal guilds which banded together for various reasons in lore relevance- usually political.

Are they not then covered by the game's title, being an extension of its origin? And is it not still odd that a game based so heavily on the thematic notion of guilds has practically no content that pertains to guilds of any kind? Maybe if the IG guilds had to choose collectively between one of the sides that players individually get to pick in their personal storylines, or had to ally with one of the "armor factions." It doesn't seem to matter very much which way you interpret the nomenclature as the game has nothing for any aspect you might choose of the word 'guild.' In GW1 and especially Factions, the guild premise was very distinct. In a game with a setting supposedly based around warring factions, it's simply strange that they made no effort whatsoever to involve player guilds in some way. They could have done quite a lot but seemingly chose to do nothing. The fact remains that a game titled Guild Wars has nothing to do with guilds of any kind at all. At most it serves as the vague, intangible backdrop for zones and dungeons, with no practical meaning for gameplay. The thing that truly matters, however, is the fact that there's no gameplay-oriented reason to be in player guilds at all since it offered nothing except a chat channel and there was no content for which being in a guild really mattered -- in fact it expressly wasn't applicable for most of the game's content, being almost exclusively of the single party variety.

[rhandric]

The fact remains that any MMO launched is a living, breathing, changing world -- that is, while they may not launch with certain features, that doesn't prevent the addition of said features over the life of the game. Including in this month's patch (guild missions being added).

[Deleted]

They regressed even in non-gameplay areas, providing none of the guild facilities that GW1 had, most notably guild halls. That's a common trend with GW2: discarding succesful and popular GW1 features for no reason, and without really compensating for the loss by introducing anything else in its place. This is the same reason sPvP was a staggering failure.

It isn't reasonable to excuse the exclusion of what should have been fundamental features with the explanation that it can be added over the life of the game. You wouldn't launch a current-day MMORPG without instanced dungeons and explain it with the fact that it took Everquest several years to invent that feature. There's no reason to re-invent the wheel, especially when it serves no purpose at all. The game isn't better off without guild halls (or things like observer mode for PvP, for that matter) and they'd already invented it long ago. It's a consequence of the discount nature of GW2 and really can't be excused as some sort of feature in itself.

[Fencers]

There is guild content; it's the whole game.


Specific Guild Missions are slated for this month too:

[Karizee]

There is guild content; it's the whole game.


Specific Guild Missions are slated for this month too:

http://youtu.be/7z_8_yKMzGA

My guild has 300k+ influence just burning a hole in our pocket waiting on this - rawr!

[Lane]

Well, after having done 4/5 of the dungeon monthly achievement this weekend my bf and I agree in that case we missed the trinity. We really haven't enjoyed any of the dungeons we've done so far, so I sincerely hope that they will not be a monthly requirement after today.

[Karizee]

I caught the last half of the SINFO lecture yesterday where Colin discussed design decisions and challenges faced in building a community focused game in the online game space.

Really showcased how innovative they are, will link a vid when/if it gets uploaded.

[Drakhar]

You wouldn't launch a current-day MMORPG without instanced dungeons and explain it with the fact that it took Everquest several years to invent that feature.

Off-topic but... one of the biggest (of many) blunders taken by SOE. Fuck instances.

[Cyclone Jack]

-Dynamic Events: I think they did a pretty good job here, but there is still quite a bit of room for improvement.
-No holy trinity: While I prefer non-trinity games, their class design is way too homogonized.
-Dodge system: Works well, but was never shown to players. The fact that they needed to make it into an Achievement speaks volumes.
-Downleveling: Works well, but I preferred CoH's SK/RSK system over what they have here.
-Skills defined by Weapons: Great in concept, but poorly designed and removed any real depth when building a character. I would personally scrap this idea, or rethink this completely.
-Combo Fields: Great idea, poorly explained and executed (like many of the games systems).
-Downed State (probably connected to "no holy trinity"): I actually like this, as it promotes a bit more teamwork and coordination, especially when in a tough group fight.
-Multi-Guild system: Neat idea, but I haven't taken advantage of it.
-GW2s take on RvR: Other than the technical issues they have had, the concept of it is pretty solid.
-Skill and Build system: Horrible.
-sPvP "Lobby": N/A, I don't sPvP.
-Cosmetic progression: Good in concept, but they are severely lacking in variety.
- Mob tagging: Absolutely brilliant.

[plantation]

-Dynamic Events: pretty fun, but no one is ever around to do the mid level ones.

-No holy trinity: hate it. makes combat feel disorganized/clunky.

-Dodge system: don't think i've ever really used it. In an MMO i'd rather just sit still and hit my abilities. if I wanted to dodge i'd play halo or COD online.

-Downleveling: hate it. I feel like there's no point to being level 80 because i'm downleveled everywhere. why even bother having a leveling system at all?

-Skills defined by Weapons: pretty cool, but i wish i could choose different setups/switch out abilities. some of the moves like guardian GS are pretty boring.

-Combo Fields: i've only seen like 2 combo fields happen.

-Downed State (probably connected to "no holy trinity"): i like this a lot, but in pvp it can be annoying. I wish there was a "respawn now" button you could click.

-Multi-Guild system: hate it. i would constantly get PMd from other guilds saying "hur represent our guild or ur getting kicked!"

-GW2s take on RvR: it's ok. the gates take too long to destroy though and the pvp in general sucks (in my opinion).

-Skill and Build system: don't really like it. its similar to the old wow talents (uninteresting perks) without anything cool thrown in.

-sPvP "Lobby": stupid/pointless. why no just let us queue for the battlegrounds and allow us to swap out weapons/traits inside the game?

-Cosmetic progression: it's a good idea, but there needs to be more armor options.

I'd also like to say that there is absolutely no need for a level cap of 80. 40 or even 20 levels would've sufficed.

[Deleted]

Great you talk about complexity in the game and you throw one of the most boring bosses of ICC out as an example...
Tanks+dps just zerg down mobs like it's trash whoopie. Healers fly through hoops on paladins and do 150k hps...

Fights are generic regardless of there being a trinity or not. It's always the same, avoid fire +dps or hps.

While his example wasn't great, that doesn't invalidate his premise. Guild Wars 2 really can't have complex enough encounters, and I honestly think that's what high-end "raiders" want, a challenge of their ability to cope with different mechanics and a time limit in which they have to do so (that being the world and server races in the case of WoW). A better example, again from ICC is probably Lich King Heroic. You had a tank taking the adds away because they couldn't be handled by 1 tank while taking on the Lich King. The ability to taunt and keep threat on something like that greatly changes the number of possibilities for the mechanics of a fight... It just feels...more controlled and smoother. I haven't been playing GW2 too much, still lvling, but that's the idea I got thus far from event bosses that I have done. I'm likely to continue playing GW2, alongside WoW though.

[Fencers]

I'd also like to say that there is absolutely no need for a level cap of 80. 40 or even 20 levels would've sufficed.

I actually feel having levels in Guild Wars 2 was a mistake. Originally the game was to have no levels at all, such as The Secret World. In testing Anet found players missed the "ding!" and easy measure of progress leveling provided.

GW2 would have been much better off [IMO] if Anet had stuck to their guns and not included leveling, scouts or heart events. Guild Wars 1 had the level cap set so low as to be meaningless. Yet still did provide personal progression up to a satisfactory point. From that point on one was progressing in power and content by more horizontal means.

However, Guild Wars 2 aimed to be a more mass market, dumb downed game from the first series. It has obviously worked with the sequel gaining wider press, success and growth than the original esoteric series.

Though the sequel is more uneven, sloppier and an incomplete game because of these contradictory play systems.

[Valeron]

I like the scouts in this regard, they provide context to the area they are talking about. Take out the renown hearts and leave the scouts in to tell a bit of the story of the area, I'd like to see that.

[Meledelion]

A better example, again from ICC is probably Lich King Heroic. You had a tank taking the adds away because they couldn't be handled by 1 tank while taking on the Lich King.

I'll explain lich king from memory, let's see how complex this really is.
P1
Zerg lk, tank adds, avoid voidzones
Transition1:
Stand on ledge kill adds
P2
Ledge falls off, harpies spwn that pick people up (zerg these down) and some "voidzone" appears on players they get bigger the longer people stand in them.
T2:
Adds on ledge again
T3:
Go into a special zone, kill adds.
After you get out kite LK back and forth, same voidzone mechanic as p2.
Adds from the room are summoned, kite? these.

All of those things can be done in GW2 as well.
That's it, the most complex fight, boils down to "avoid voidzones" and kite/nuke adds. I've said it before, the complexity/hard part from WoW didn't come from the mechanics it was finding/managing good people.

Back on topic.
I agree with fencers, I rmmbr first hearing about GW2 and a-net simply mixed the goods of wow with the goods of gw and scrapped pretty much all bad things. Sadly their views have changed a lot since then.

[Fencers]

I like the scouts in this regard, they provide context to the area they are talking about. Take out the renown hearts and leave the scouts in to tell a bit of the story of the area, I'd like to see that.

I sorta feel/felt world context could have been better served without the scout mechanic.

I have quite a lot of thoughts on the weird quasi- nature of Guild Wars 2 that borderlines on schizophrenic game design. It's a non linear RPG, with limited linearity, then total linearity in turns. It's an action MMO with singular RPG stats that don't need management or consideration, but also has semi-FPS, semi-stat based combat with free targeting and...

And so. The game is such a mish-mash of design.

I've heard 2 accounts from people in the industry that lead me to believe there was a seachange in operation of Arena.net seemed to have exceeded the practical reach for the boutique developer Arena.net were beforehand. It shows in the game design, where GW1 was very efficient in DD/T, and in the massive difference in the way Anet communicate to the players via press, forums and wiki.

This isn't totally the same Anet of Guild Wars 1.

Not intended as a slight though-- Anet obviously have had better success with the sequel. Though the "all over the place" game design is pretty stark by contrast to their past efforts or even more focused titles such as The Secret World or Tera. Which are leaner designs.

Maybe all this falls out of the scope of the thread though. But I feel it does tie in to GW2's design decisions at a high level.

[Meledelion]

GW2 isn't as "tight" and well rounded as GW. The balancing issues we see today prove that it's a new team on a-net.
Gw1 split off pve and pvp quite early on.
Gw1 balanced over 1500 skills between 10professions which could all have a secondary profession and gw2 struggles with what 200?
The story was told in a dynamic setting, there were cutscenes but your toon moved instead of having two toons chattering a bit...

[Kelimbror]

I actually feel having levels in Guild Wars 2 was a mistake.

I would have disagreed with this in the past, since I like traditional leveling systems, but the rest of the game's design leads me to completely agree with you. To be perfectly honest I haven't even hit 80 with a single character because it somehow feels very oppressive in this game.

I can't completely understand or explain it, since I seem to have no problems leveling in traditional systems, but the closest I can get is that everything tells me to not care about what level I am, except that number I see everywhere letting me know that there's something I can't access right now unless I focus and keep leveling as quickly as possible.

I feel disconnected while playing the game and it actually turns my experience that is supposed to feel free and flowing into something that feels utterly forced. This in turn makes me feel like everything is a grind because I'm not having as much fun as the game is telling me I should be having.

It seems so arbitrary and psychological, but I really would have enjoyed my time more without the pressure of a level on my head.

[Fencers]

It seems so arbitrary and psychological, but I really would have enjoyed my time more without the pressure of a level on my head.

A lot of people miss this while playing, but there is actually a popup message that tells the player you will be rewarded more if you take on challenges higher in level than your own. And Peters once did a live stream after the first beta weekend I believe, where he demonstrated how the game wasn't strictly forcing a player to play content that was equal or lower in level.

Stuff like that is really telling to me of how levels or leveling feel sorta "tacked on" [for lack of a better term] to a DD/T that supposedly was level-less ala The Secret World.

I really would have liked to have seen what the game would have been like without; hearts, scouts, levels and instanced dungeons.

It's kind of a quasi sandbox/themepark action MMO with a heavy emphasis on PVP in the long term. Just kinda weird design sometimes.

[rhandric]

Fencers, you use "DD/T" all the time, and while I get the gist of what you mean, it'd be nice to know what that *actually* means...and google was no help.