Verdict on Guild Wars 2's innovations

[Lane]

I don't pay attention to level in GW2. The real limiting factor are skill points. The only time level becomes blatantly obvious (to me) is when I progress too quickly in my personal story.

So much of GW2 is how I would have designed an MMO, so I find it interesting their original intention was not to have leveling because it's something I wouldn't have had either. Kind of a shame they changed their mind, I would have liked to have seen how it worked out in practice.

[Valeron]

I've long been a proponent of leveless games, especially for this one. The levels, renown hearts, and scouts kind of scream to me that they were afraid of alienating some of the masses with this game. Would it have been less popular without those features? We'll never know but I feel the game would be more coherent without them.

[Fencers]

Fencers, you use "DD/T" all the time, and while I get the gist of what you mean, it'd be nice to know what that *actually* means...and google was no help.

Design Document or Design Template. It refers to the theoretical or outline of how a game is designed. Sometimes called a paper template, paper game or paper proof in the industry.

Actual "paper" is immaterial.

We'll never know but I feel the game would be more coherent without them.

I do think the game would be more coherent, but less popular.

GW2 is pretty accessible / easy to play. Even if say the hearts or daily systems are not 1:1 to other MMOs they are familiar enough in outline.

I think how easy GW2 is to grasp is part of its success in a big way.

[philefluxx]

I've long been a proponent of leveless games, especially for this one. The levels, renown hearts, and scouts kind of scream to me that they were afraid of alienating some of the masses with this game. Would it have been less popular without those features? We'll never know but I feel the game would be more coherent without them.

Im not sure a leveless system would work for GW2, at least not in the way it works now. If there was more of a gear ladder than I could see it working, similar to TSW. People need to feel a sense of progression and I dont think map completion would be enough. I like the down scailing option and I like that even though you are scaled down, the higher level and more trait points you have actually makes you feel stronger than the content. Many games that offer down scailing usually make all content feel like its latteral in difficulty. While no one really wants to steam role content, having just a little bit of extra power makes you feel better when completing it. In my opinion at least.

[Kelimbror]

I've long been a proponent of leveless games, especially for this one.

I've never really played them, not on as grand a scale as an MMO anyways. There are plenty of RPGs that don't equate levels to progression and those didn't stop my fun at all. I just think the business model where they want lots of players and lots of them to keep paying monthly forever find that leveling is a vehicle to making an end game exist in the first place.

Without that end game, you wouldn't have continuous payments. Unfortunately it's all tied to a psychological stigma. I mean you could technically have no gear in a game, but let your quests and dungeons just add stats on your character. We all know that would be a disaster. Not just because of cosmetics, let's pretend you could look however you want, but people honestly wouldn't be as satisfied defeating bosses and gaining +2 all stats each week. They would freak out.

Not to mention that it takes away a lot of diversity in character management like enchanting, gems, etc. It's a really hard sell to get an MMO to see your character like RPGs do...to progress for the sake of progression. Plus we all play them with the idea that at some point we will 'beat' the game, when MMO's are designed to never end basically.

[Cyclone Jack]

I think how easy GW2 is to grasp is part of its success in a big way.

I just wish the skill system/character builds were deeper. For an RPG, they are paper thin with no depth at all. It's like they were afraid to put any thought into it. I'd love to see GGG make GW2 skill system.

[Fencers]

@Kitty

Well, that was basically how GW1 worked-- no endgame, progress was story/world based, leveling stopped at 20 and eventually didn't matter in expansion, cosmetic progression, etc. It was not disastrous at all. Niche, yes. But the design of GW1 was superb in practice.

Also, MMOs can be "beat" to use the vulgar. No end credits do not mean there is no end of game.

[Kelimbror]

@Kitty

Well, that was basically how GW1 worked-- no endgame, progress was story/world based, leveling stopped at 20 and eventually didn't matter in expansion, cosmetic progression, etc. It was not disastrous at all. Niche, yes. But the design of GW1 was superb in practice.

I'm sad that I could never play it more than 30 minutes then. I did buy the original game in a fit of rage on one of Mannoroth's infamous server down days, but it felt very strange and clunky to me at the time. I clearly hadn't played enough 3rd person RPGs or MMO's at that point to make such a claim. Considering that I now enjoy all MMOs decently, even LotRO which I thought was similarly 'clunky' as I couldn't distinguish between games working in their own world compared to how WoW felt to me in general.

@Also, MMOs can be "beat" to use the vulgar. No end credits do not mean there is no end of game.

If you look at it philosophically, not really. At least, it's designed to ever let that idea enter your mind. Truthfully developers don't live up to their end of providing enough content to make it happen literally, but even the system of expansions reinforces that notion. All of your victories aren't permanent or game ending, merely a temporary respite and reflection of your accomplishment as you await the next challenge.

While broken down into the base concepts, it might be no different than playing any game and then waiting for the sequel, the actual perception it has (by design) in our minds is vastly different.

Naturally this idea is staggered if not provided a clear direction of how to reach the plateaus of accomplishment. Having a game with no obvious goal systems beyond enjoyment leaves the majority of players, and probably my former self, scratching their heads and wondering what the point is in ever playing it. It might be that gamers as a whole are playing more games without these fabricated goals and the time would have been right for GW2 without levels, but we will never know now.

Just from the amount of people who play things like Terraria, Minecraft (pre the level bar), and tons of other RPGs, I think there is a large enough audience that could grasp the notion of playing for other goals...just no company has found a great way to reinforce those true goals over the facade of what we've seen so far.

[sacrypheyes]

I actually feel having levels in Guild Wars 2 was a mistake. Originally the game was to have no levels at all, such as The Secret World. In testing Anet found players missed the "ding!" and easy measure of progress leveling provided.

GW2 would have been much better off [IMO] if Anet had stuck to their guns and not included leveling, scouts or heart events. Guild Wars 1 had the level cap set so low as to be meaningless. Yet still did provide personal progression up to a satisfactory point. From that point on one was progressing in power and content by more horizontal means.

However, Guild Wars 2 aimed to be a more mass market, dumb downed game from the first series. It has obviously worked with the sequel gaining wider press, success and growth than the original esoteric series.

Though the sequel is more uneven, sloppier and an incomplete game because of these contradictory play systems.

have to agree they should have left gw2 w/o levels as they did originaly.
that would have given a greater feeling of freedom, as you would have been able to explore any part of the world as long as you could get to it,
which is why i often feel frustrated when i come to face some lv 4+ packs because i didn't reach the required level yet, thus forcing me to go back and grind some events, which sometimes just don't come up (which is why i wish there were lots more events poping at any time).

as for the scouts thing, what they should have done imo (and that would have been enough) is just point out some zones where hearts/events were happening but not as precise as to litteraly make their exact location appear on your map, which just kills the exploration.

one of the things i'm missing the most from gw1 is the skill build system (actually more like the skill hunting system).
i wish they would have improved it by giving the possibility of getting (capturing!) additional weapon skills which you could swap out with the default ones, or for the least giving us more utility skills to get from some hidden champion or why not as a reward of a chain of events.

(...)
If you look at it philosophically, not really. At least, it's designed to ever let that idea enter your mind. Truthfully developers don't live up to their end of providing enough content to make it happen literally, but even the system of expansions reinforces that notion. All of your victories aren't permanent or game ending, merely a temporary respite and reflection of your accomplishment as you await the next challenge.

that's where you're sort of getting it wrong for gw1, where campaigns were actual separate stories (which actually ended when you beat the last boss) with EotN being the only xpac of the whole series, and even then, EotN was meant to be more like some sort of prequel to gw2.

[Fencers]

If you look at it philosophically, not really.

You mean more like theoretically. Because ideally an MMO produces so much content as to be never-ending. In practice this is almost impossible in theme park MMOs and irreverent in sandbox MMOs.

For example, as a Rift player I know you will understand this: I have cleared every raid and dungeon in the game. Killed Regulos and have all but 1 non-relic piece of gear, the tank 1h sword from Crucia. In addition, I have cleared all the quests available to me in the game. My PA is maxed.

Until new content is released, I have finished the PVE side of the game. It is "beaten" effectively. There is literally no content I have not cleared.

One can log in and kill Volan again or run Boneforge, sure. But there is no content unknown or unbeaten. One would be at the end point of all progress.

That is a definite end of game.

[Lane]

I've never been able to wrap my head around the progression mentality. I mean, if they ever came out with an MMO with updates of actual new content in the form of non-instanced PvE places to play I would be all over that. Adding a new raid and/or new tier of gear has never appealed to me. I don't consider it content most of the time. (I admit Rift seems to put a lot of effort into their raids, but many of WoW's were really lazy.) Once I've hit 100% zone completion in any game and the only thing left to do is grind for gear I rapidly lose interest. I honestly don't know how that carrot seems to keep leading so many people on, but it does. Unfortunately, it seems most games save their zone additions for full on expansions and rarely ever in content updates.

Sometimes I think I just don't understand MMOs or the MMO player. I've always enjoyed the 1-X experience better than being at X, but so many people seem to want to skip over that for the "end game" which they consider the only "real content". It baffles me.

Edit: Also noting that for some reason people seem to think running the same half dozen dungeons and 2 raids ad nauseum is more "content" than 20+ zones. O_o

[Deleted]

I'll explain lich king from memory, let's see how complex this really is.
P1
Zerg lk, tank adds, avoid voidzones
Transition1:
Stand on ledge kill adds
P2
Ledge falls off, harpies spwn that pick people up (zerg these down) and some "voidzone" appears on players they get bigger the longer people stand in them.
T2:
Adds on ledge again
T3:
Go into a special zone, kill adds.
After you get out kite LK back and forth, same voidzone mechanic as p2.
Adds from the room are summoned, kite? these.

All of those things can be done in GW2 as well.
That's it, the most complex fight, boils down to "avoid voidzones" and kite/nuke adds. I've said it before, the complexity/hard part from WoW didn't come from the mechanics it was finding/managing good people.

Back on topic.
I agree with fencers, I rmmbr first hearing about GW2 and a-net simply mixed the goods of wow with the goods of gw and scrapped pretty much all bad things. Sadly their views have changed a lot since then.

Yes well, when you state things like that, anything seems simple. Execution wise though...not so much. Also, I'm guessing you didn't do Lich King heroic since you forgot a couple of major parts out. Also, you can never have "omg it's so complex" mechanics. That thing just doesn't exist really...but it seems like even the top players take a lot of tries to get a boss down, so how can you say finding good people is the only thing that needs to be done? Either way I'm not here to argue about the complexity difference between the 2 games, I believe I got my point across, whether one wants to acknowledge it or not.

[guser]

the lack of lfg tool killed it for me. havent opened the game in the last months

[Deleted]

agreed. its one of the reasons i won't go back to wow. im amazed that blizzard didnt take this concept from gw2. its disheartening to go back to wow and see basic quest gear cost 1-5k gold.

When the main accepted method to farm money in a game is to all gather as a massive zerg in one area of the world and compete over tagging for two public events over and over, WoW's economy doesn't seem nearly so bad.

[philefluxx]

have to agree they should have left gw2 w/o levels as they did originaly.
that would have given a greater feeling of freedom, as you would have been able to explore any part of the world as long as you could get to it,
which is why i often feel frustrated when i come to face some lv 4+ packs because i didn't reach the required level yet, thus forcing me to go back and grind some events, which sometimes just don't come up (which is why i wish there were lots more events poping at any time).

You can actually find event triggers by talking with NPC's. They dont always have the event icon over their heads. Generally its a good idea to look for NPC's that talk, especially the ones trying to get your attention. As less players are in the earlier zones you have to look a little harder for the events, they arent just going off all the time around you. Hope this helps.

[Meledelion]

Yes well, when you state things like that, anything seems simple. Execution wise though...not so much. Also, I'm guessing you didn't do Lich King heroic since you forgot a couple of major parts out. Also, you can never have "omg it's so complex" mechanics. That thing just doesn't exist really...but it seems like even the top players take a lot of tries to get a boss down, so how can you say finding good people is the only thing that needs to be done? Either way I'm not here to argue about the complexity difference between the 2 games, I believe I got my point across, whether one wants to acknowledge it or not.

I did HC lk with 10% buff, I quit raiding after doing it so stating tactics from 3years ago tends to make you forget things.
So you basically agree that the lack of complex fights has nothing to do with GW2, it's simply a max of complexity period.

Guild Wars 2 really can't have complex enough encounters, and I honestly think that's what high-end "raiders" want, a challenge of their ability to cope with different mechanics and a time limit in which they have to do so (that being the world and server races in the case of WoW). A better example, again from ICC is probably Lich King Heroic.

Is simply a failed premise. It has nothing to do with GW2's mechanics.

[nevermore]

I would be totally satisfied if the max level was 40 in GW2.
I mean, on one hand you gain access to all your abilities at lvl30, on the other hand you keep gaining "levels" even when you're 80, so what's the point of actually having to go to 80?
Every time I start a new character I have the carrot on a stick till I'm 30 (carrot being new abilities, elites, unlocking weapon skills) and then... nothing. A trait every level, in a game that has the most uninteresting talent system I've ever seen.
So yeah. Just thought I'd chime in ;p

[Lane]

When the main accepted method to farm money in a game is to all gather as a massive zerg in one area of the world and compete over tagging for two public events over and over, WoW's economy doesn't seem nearly so bad.

Amen to that. The problem is there's no value in anything below level 80.

[RoninaThorstone]

All the innovations of GW2 resulted in a "closer" for me.

Devs still have a ways to go till they give me the MMO I want

Tera and Firefall need to have a baby and then that baby needs to be raised by rift.

[ro9ue]

I love that they simplified the action bar to only a few abilities at a time and really encouraged exploration. I do not like multiple guilds.