Verdict on Guild Wars 2's innovations

[Polarthief]

"Dynamic" Events is a load of crap, it's the same stuff over and over, with no interesting outcome.

Better than dailies, and that's good enough for me.

---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 03:07 AM ----------

Just going to discuss a few points:

Dynamic Events by themselves really lack the immersion, background, and lore bits you get from traditional questing. Most of the time people don't know WHY they are doing what they are doing. Why are we defending that village? Why do we have to guard that caravan going to that village? Since most of these events just pop up, you just do them and move on.

The down leveling system is great if you want to help a newbie friend or something, but it sucks for almost everything else. You want to farm mats for your new profession? Yea that level 5 spider next to that node is going to go toe to toe with you even though you're max level. That never feels right. It makes you feel the opposite of powerful which is what you're supposed to be at max level.

That takes me straight to my other point. Gear grinding is the wheels that keep MMOs going. When the rewards are just cosmetic the game loses a lot of its appeal for a lot of players. SOME will like that style sure, but gear grinding and progression is the reason WoW still has millions of players after 8 years.

Even with that the game is still fun and I enjoy login in once in a while but from what it was hyped up to be by overzealous fanboys to what we actually got, not even close.

There isn't a thing about your post I disagree with, and it's why I no longer play the game, really.

In addition to gear grinding, the lack of end game is what nailed the coffin for me.

[draykorinee]

Better than dailies, and that's good enough for me.

---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 03:07 AM ----------




There isn't a thing about your post I disagree with, and it's why I no longer play the game, really.

In addition to gear grinding, the lack of end game is what nailed the coffin for me.

Everything is better than dailies. And yes Yucas post resonates with me a great deal.

[Stormgnoef]

If there was one thing I'd want future MMOs to take from GW2, it would definitely be no mob tagging/node stealing.

this oh god this.Future mmos should learn from it and Blizzard should consider adding it.I know some quest mobs already got it but i want full no mob tagging and gathering proffesion.

[StationaryHawk]

Downleveling is the worst system ever. Leveling is pointless, and I never get to feel powerful. What the hell is the point???

This sort of confuses me. Leveling to me has always been a method to reach new content. It's never been about being able to go back to old content just to one-shot everything. I suppose it can make you feel "powerful," but it's also fairly pointless.

[Kavoo]

Downleveling is a great way to keep all the content relevant. Imagine how much content WoW would have if it had such a downleveling system in place. Sure, some people like to solo outdated stuff but I find that a real niche activity and a poor argument for withholding such a system. It also makes playing with friends a lot more engaging since you're not massively overpowered.
Verdict: Will hopefully become a de facto standard in future MMOs.

I have a question about this: do you turn it ON and OFF as you please ?
Because the way I see it, when the current content get to, idk, 4 years old or so, do you think you would really want to do it in its regular level of dificulty?
While running it underleveled may be fun at times it would get old too soon. You can always help a low lvl friend if youre overpowered, while underleveled youre just another player in that dungeon.

[StationaryHawk]

The down leveling system is great if you want to help a newbie friend or something, but it sucks for almost everything else. You want to farm mats for your new profession? Yea that level 5 spider next to that node is going to go toe to toe with you even though you're max level. That never feels right. It makes you feel the opposite of powerful which is what you're supposed to be at max level.

The same point here, but with an additional one: that level 5 spider will not go toe-to-toe with someone downleveled significantly. Higher level players who have been downleveled still seem to have the advantage.

This was meant to be added on to my previous post, but miss-clicks occurred, so don't mind me.

[Fencers]

I have a question about this: do you turn it ON and OFF as you please ?

No. In Guild Wars 2 down leveling is autoamtically set by the area you enter. There is no player input other than walking into a level 20 map or whatever.

In games such as Everquest, Aion and Rift downleveling is a player choice. One can set their level independent of the zone they enter.

[Valeron]

you have to remember that a major point for down-leveling is to prevent griefing. I also like it that I'm not one shotting everything in sight when I'm down leveled. I can kill most everything below level 75 fast enough as it is anyway. I quite like the feature.

[Kavoo]

This sort of confuses me. Leveling to me has always been a method to reach new content. It's never been about being able to go back to old content just to one-shot everything. I suppose it can make you feel "powerful," but it's also fairly pointless.

Its not about feeling powerfull. The way I see it, when the content is too old it gets fun to do it quickly. Ive been soloing stuff since forever and when you want something from a low lvl place (transmog, mounts, recipes, achievments, etc.) its great to just go there and try to get it by yourself. Its like a 1p game inside a mmo.

---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 06:29 AM ----------

you have to remember that a major point for down-leveling is to prevent griefing. I also like it that I'm not one shotting everything in sight when I'm down leveled. I can kill most everything below level 75 fast enough as it is anyway. I quite like the feature.

If I had to fight every lvl 40 mob as a lvl 40 player I would never visit old content again. Content gets old and doing it a few times (on alts for example) is boring already.

[StationaryHawk]

Its not about feeling powerfull. The way I see it, when the content is too old it gets fun to do it quickly. Ive been soloing stuff since forever and when you want something from a low lvl place (transmog, mounts, recipes, achievments, etc.) its great to just go there and try to get it by yourself. Its like a 1p game inside a mmo.

In the case which I was replying to, it was about feeling powerful. I can understand your argument about wanting to get something done quickly, however, and believe it's completely reasonable. I just don't think that's how ArenaNet wanted the game to be played: by leveling up and then zooming through the low level zones (and helping to prevent griefing was probably on the list, too). Differing opinions, of course, and I don't expect everyone to agree with that.

Higher level players still kill things quite a bit quicker even while downleveled, too.

[Kavoo]

In games such as Everquest, Aion and Rift downleveling is a player choice. One can set their level independent of the zone they enter.

Otoh, this way is cool I guess.

[Valeron]

If I had to fight every lvl 40 mob as a lvl 40 player I would never visit old content again. Content gets old and doing it a few times (on alts for example) is boring already.

You really don't have to fight through everything. Just use some speed boost skills, maybe an aegis type skill (block), and run through everything anyway. It isn't really an issue.

[Kavoo]

In the case which I was replying to, it was about feeling powerful. I can understand your argument about wanting to get something done quickly, however, and believe it's completely reasonable. I just don't think that's how ArenaNet wanted the game to be played: by leveling up and then zooming through the low level zones. Differing opinions, of course, and I don't expect everyone to agree with that.

I agree it must be great but not the thing for me I guess. :P

Higher level players still kill things quite a bit quicker even while downleveled, too.

Thats nice.

[yuca247]

No. In Guild Wars 2 down leveling is autoamtically set by the area you enter. There is no player input other than walking into a level 20 map or whatever.

In games such as Everquest, Aion and Rift downleveling is a player choice. One can set their level independent of the zone they enter.

CHOICES!

I'm torn up about this and I'll explain why later in my post.

On the one hand developers are sometimes too presumptuous and think they know best what the players will like. There's too many different players with different taste. If you give the players the choices and options to do things to their liking it should keep players happy. I'm not just talking about the down leveling here either. Anything can apply, for any MMO. But let's look at questing for example. Most players don't like linear questing, they want different routes they can take to see different stories or whenever they are leveling up alts so they dont have to see the same old story over and over again.

Now here comes a predicament for the developers. Most players given several paths to a destination will almost always take the path of least resistance = the easiest, quickest way.

THAT is the reason I think developers don't do this more often is because of the resources (time, money, etc) it takes to give players more and more options and choices when the vast majority will just end up choosing the fastest, easiest way anyways.

Got a little bit off topic there but just food for thought.

[Lollis]

-Dynamic Events
Nothing particularly amazing about them compared to the Rift or Warhammer Online versions tbh.
-No holy trinity
Makes the social and team aspect kind of mute, you can play through the whole game and gear to the max without having to talk to a single person.
-Dodge system
Good idea, but makes certain classes basically invulnerable in PvP.
-Downleveling
Again, nice idea to make the game somewhat challenging when you hit max level but once you have already been through the zones doing heart events it is very unlikely you will continue to want to grind the low level ones anyway.
-Skills defined by Weapons
Really quite annoying for an Elementalist when the vast majority of your skills are basically useless 99% of the time no matter what weapon set you choose. Let us switch one or two abilities in between weapons.
-Combo Fields
Barely even noticable
-Downed State (probably connected to "no holy trinity")
It's okay I guess although being revived after death should slowly drop the health bar back down in PvP so people cannot just jump into danger > revive a little > jump out > repeat.
-Multi-Guild system
They are useless, guild bonuses are lackluster.
-GW2s take on RvR
WvW /RvR is Guild Wars 2's strong point, there are a few little things that need ironing out balance wise and camera angles need to change a little for both defence and offence so that as an attacker you do not have to plant your camera in the ground to attack the walls. Being pulled off walls as a defender is more than just overpowered, if you have multiple Thieves in the attacking group then the siege is basically over.
-Skill and Build system
Elite skills for majority of classes are either underpowered, completely useless, or useless in 99% of situations. Take Elementalist: Tornado and Greatsword are pathetic for PvE and Elemental is a slightly more powerful version of a skill that you already have. Allow us to put any ability in the Elite slot where it gains a passive bonus or something, or at least retune the ones that we have so that using them has a noticeable effect, they are called ELITE Skills ffs.
-sPvP "Lobby"
Nothing special.
-Cosmetic progression
For most players cosmetic progression is not progression at all. When you are 80 and have your exotics, there is nothing left to progress. Why spend 1000g in time/mats/precursors for a Legendary that has worse stats (depending on if your class cares about vitality and toughness) than the precursor that it came from just because it looks pretty. I know some people did not want a gear ladder, but they didn't think about the alternative to it at all. Some people want to feel as though they have actually achieved something, but when you are maxed there is nothing to do.

[Meledelion]

So a non boring game means you have to run around a lot, thats a weird way to find enjoyment, for me its about utilising my skills to optomise my damage/healing/survival irregardless of how often I move.

Both combat mechanics are so obviously different I think its naive to put the two together and say look you stand still...boring. And tbh as a hunter I dont want to be flipping around all over the place, I want to be aiming my shots carefully, cast to move is an overrated mechanic.
Not a keyboard turner, jumping is clunky.
Dodging is a mundane mechanic for me but its all opinion.

To me it was like watching someone play Guitar Hero. Running around a lot actually helps a ton for enjoyment when people watch things, there's a reason why every movy Tom Cruise ever made has him running the fck away or why Top Gear always makes it look like they're driving 200mph in their super cars, movement is more fun to watch.

This is the same reason why WoW (and any other game) actually makes you move when you get bad stuff instead of making everything "click off-able" or "jump to get off"

To me the dodge mechanic is the same as avoiding bad stuff in WoW the only difference is that it's a short movement speed increase with faster moving "bad stuff" where in WoW you simply walk out of the bad stuff which comes at you slowly.

So even though imo the dodge-mechanic isn't all that spectacular on it's own I like the implication of it making everyone the same amount of "outs" as opposed to WoW where rogues can evade out of stuff or sprint or stealth or pop the thing that makes you take less aoe dmg and so on. Sadly though a-net yet again screwed up here by making some skills give immunities (I'm looking at you mesmers).

To me reaction speed ups skill requirements. Reacting within 5seconds of something is easy but reacting within 1sec is a hell of a lot harder.

Now my list:
1. Dynamic events:
It's a great idea but the implementation is wonky. At first it's great to be part of this chain (heck let's go with centaurs) where you get people under attack by centaurs. You try to defend it but lose so later you have to take back the village. After having taken back the village the threat remains so you have to go kill the bad guy who got away.
You feel like you really did contribute to the world: "See that village there? I defended that." The problem is that this simply doesn't remain in place for long enough. If you have a village with 3 hearts surrounding it you'll probably get the event to defend the village 2times by the time you completed those hearts which really takes away the sense of accomplishment.

It would be a lot cooler if you could actually tie in hearts with the events so that you can turn one small farm into a village which then becomes a proper fortification. Stronger gates and walls which actually visually upgrade. And the upgrade events from farm=>village=>city should take like 20-30min and give special rewards like a trading post, special merchants,...
For instance with the hearts. If you help a farmer gather crops you can get a discount on for instance "lettuce" for 24h so that if you buy them from the TP you don't pay the 10% transaction fee which sellers include in the price.

2. No trinity
I really like this. In other games a lot of people get carried but you don't really know by who. Is the healer keeping an extra eye on Mr Brownpants or is it the other melee who are showing where to stand, do more dps,...

The problem with no trinity is that people don't seem to understand this. Tanking isn't a viable option. You can build yourself to be beefy but you're not supposed to keep agro

3. Dodge system
See above

4. Downleveling
It's not penelazing and rewarding enough. If my lvl 30 toon goes to a lvl 20 area I don't even need to dodge I can simply stand there and take it all. Also if I go do the low level events I should be getting the same loot as when I do high level events. They usually are pretty similar in execution so the rewards should be in line.

A solution would be to limit players to the same amount as skills/traits as the intended level. E.G: my lvl 80war goes to a lvl 15 area, I should now only have one utility slot and no elite and only acces to the first 10traits of any line.

5. Skills defined by Weapons
It's a great system. There are minor thing they can expand on like making single-wielding actually viable. If I only use a sword on my mesmer skills 4-5 should get filled in with something too.
I like that you build around your weapons with utilities instead of just picking up a weapon and then having the option to do w/e you want.

A slightly better option would be a system that's closer to GW1 where you get attack skills (non weapon bound) and weapon bound skills. This could make the solo-wield thing also more viable or possible.

6. Combo Fields
I like the idea but again there are some issues. Some of the most powerful combos can not be executed unless you are in a very specific combo with weapons. For instance one of the best heals is water combo field + blast finishers for mad aoe heals. The issue is that classes with blast finishers don't/hardly have access to water fields or vice versa.

7. Downed State (probably connected to "no holy trinity")
The issue is that not all downed states are equal. A ranger can dps and heal through the pet which is very strong (or double heal). Thieves can evade 2 stomps easily and elementalists can become immune for a short time. Other classes are very lackluster and basically only can delay/avoid one stomp meaning that if it's a downed vs downed fight there's usually a clear winner before the fight is over.

For PvP I like that it implements a form of triage.

8. Multi-Guild system
Ruined by the community but a great idea. I love that I can be part of a PvP and a PvE and a WvW guild, the issue is that guilds require you to represent 100% of the time instead of only when you're in a certain field. Or that guilds try to be multi-platform to increase members which is something I don't like at all. If people would actually use the options as intended I think this would be one of the best parts of the game.

9. GW2s take on RvR
I think they made some great mechanics. Upgrading keeps, having different smaller camps+choke points is very dynamic and makes it so you can focus on whatever you like. Again I don't think the issue lies within the mechanics of WvW but in the mentality of the players.

Zerging Isn't the most effective way to win WvW. You're far better off with multiple "smaller" groups keeping control of the supply camps/sentries than running in one big ball. The reason for this is simple, you can't be everywhere at once and since it's basically constantly 2v1 whenever you zerg you're at a disadvantage/out in the open.

The reason why people zerg is because they don't realise this. A lot of people in EB still think the most important point is SM and think that if you capture it you've just won while in reality the key are the supply camps. No supply=wood doors=fast breaching=fast capping.

10. Skill and Build system
I prefered the skill and build system in GW1. Interclass combos were very fun to balance and made it so you could actually make nearly everything work.

I dislike that pets don't scale with the ranger. I dislike that trait lines aren't uniform (some classes get prec+crit in one line while others get prec+condi duration).

Most builds are very cookie-cutter/noob-friendly in comparison to GW1. No matter how you spec you're usually "ok". Of course there is a bis spec but on it's own it's not important enough for most people.

11. sPvP "Lobby"[/U]
PvP is simply horrible.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ured-PVP-scene

12. Cosmetic progression
I'm against the introduction of ascended gear, a-net simply broke their promise and they introduced a gear grind. I like that there is a set cap and they should have stayed true to this. Stats should never limit you, skill should.

[Deleted]

Dynamic Events are something that really sets GW2 apart from other MMOs....

No they don't, dynamic events are not a GW2 innovation other games already had them Warhammer, Rift, etc.

Downed State is a mechanic directly tied to the removal of a the holy trinity. Unfortunately it turns the entire game into something of a rezz war as well as having some questionable design choices. Players having three times their normal HP in downed state , the speed at which people can heal each other, the "fun factor" and the implications on both PvP and PvE are just bad. This is a feature I would not miss and I think GW2 would be a better game without it.
Verdict: I can see why they implemented it, but pretty much everything about it is wrong.

Without real healers and real tanks, they need the rez mechanic to compensate, especially when they have stuff that can one shot you. Plus in tPvP it adds an extra layer to the game.

[Rhywolver]

-Dynamic Events
Extremly well done in my opinion. Helps you often to finish nearby hearts. Some of them should be connected to larger DE-chains, as seen in some places already, so yes, needs a little polish.
Connected to lore? Well, better than 'Hey legendary hero of Azeroth, Slayer of C'Thun, Kel'Thuzad and Nefarian! Proove your strenght here in Nagrand! Fetch me 50 turds, here's your bucket!'.

Verdict: I'm totally satisfied with them. You don't have to do them, especially when you did them 15 minutes before, just move on. They are making the world more alive than the static quest mobs standing in place since forever.

-No holy trinity
Makes the game less constrained. Imagine Dynamic events with all those tards that shout for heals or blame the tank. I don't really care for dungeons, but I'm glad that I don't have to gimp my gaming experience for the dungeon I visit twice a week or the weekly raid because I have to have that skill or that equipment set.

Verdict: Works for this game, but I don't think it will be the standard anytime soon.

-Dodge system
I like it. Nothing more to say. At least I think it's one thing that defines this game, wouldn't work for every MMO.

-Downleveling
Since I don't really use waypoints if I don't have to, I travel from Lion's arch to Orr through all the Zones between, collect some resources, do some events, resurrect players/NPCs etc. It's not getting boring because there are only one-hit victims that won't even react to me if I'm running along 5 meters next to them. It gives me the feeling of a long journey, and I don't take the same path all the time, even if it takes me several days, because I'm just playing for an hour and got lost on stuff to do on the way.

Verdict: Gret in this game, might add something to other games, but people won't accept the change if it isn't optional.

-Skills defined by Weapons
This seems to be something that most of the people have problems with. I can really live with it as a weapon collector and with X twinks, but IF there was an expansion anytime soon it's possible that you get more skills and that you can switch several skills around like in GW1.

Verdict: Best system for casual play

-Combo Fields
Didn't really notice them to be honest. I often don't have an idea what all the stuff on the ground means /:

Verdict: Needs some work, I liked the idea of training zones.

-Downed State
In my opinion it's great to barely survive a fight. For someone who is rather playing alone or in a small group, it saves you from respawning all the time, because you had to jump in that group of enemies again, just to see if you can do it. I must admit that it took some time to get used to it, because I just facerolled the downed state skills for a long time...

Verdict: Works for this game and feels unique, but it's nothing other games really need.

If there was one thing I'd want future MMOs to take from GW2, it would definitely be no mob tagging/node stealing.

Yes, the system is amazing, and it's something that could easily be the standard for new MMOs.

What I'm really thinking about is: What would happen, if such a system is implemented in an established MMO like WoW.
It seems it could add so much to that game, no more hate if you see other players, especially since cross realm zones were implemented.
On the other hand, would the playerbase accept it? What changes would have to be made to the resource system, so that not everyone can farm as much ore as he wants and change the economy of the game drastically. Would players cry out loud, because AOE multiboxers nuke whole zones and get more loot and gold per DPS while others hop among them to instantabilitytap all the targets?

[draykorinee]

-Dynamic Events
Connected to lore? Well, better than 'Hey legendary hero of Azeroth, Slayer of C'Thun, Kel'Thuzad and Nefarian! Proove your strenght here in Nagrand! Fetch me 50 turds, here's your bucket!'.

Hail slayer of Zhaitan mightiest of Elder dragons please fix the fences around this compound for me, while also struggling to kill a handful of polar bears and serving my patrons! Works for every game and really isnt a legit point at all.

---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 12:27 PM ----------

Yes, the system is amazing, and it's something that could easily be the standard for new MMOs.

Not could but should there is no reason whatsoever to have any alternative to shared quest kills anymore, shared nodes is also brilliant.

What I'm really thinking about is: What would happen, if such a system is implemented in an established MMO like WoW.

It exists in wow, there are plenty of quests now that have shared kills, unfortunately they havent bitten the bullet and gone all out. The economy fluctuates all the time, they can tweak the spawn numbers a bit so nodes spawns happen less frequently, I dont think it would be a difficult thing to do.

[Rhywolver]

Hail slayer of Zhaitan mightiest of Elder dragons please fix the fences around this compound for me, while also struggling to kill a handful of polar bears and serving my patrons! Works for every game and really isnt a legit point at all..

It wasn't my intention to let GW2s DEs/Hearts shine over WoWs quest. But in my opinion it's wrong to say that the Warcraft quests are tied much more to the lore than in GW2. It's mostly the same: Developers need a quest hub in a zone that migh or might not have lore at all. Lore can be retconned around this hub anytime.

It exists in wow, there are plenty of quests now that have shared kills, unfortunately they havent bitten the bullet and gone all out. The economy fluctuates all the time, they can tweak the spawn numbers a bit so nodes spawns happen less frequently, I dont think it would be a difficult thing to do.

Now that you remind me of it... yes, I played that Hyial Dailies where you fough along with a handful of Druides and sometimes some famous NPC. Yep, there were shared kills, not sure about Loot. Didn't know that they used it more often now. Seems like a shy introduction to see how it works.