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  1. #121
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    Trinity and non trinity systems don't need to replace each other, or cancel each other out. Claiming otherwise is foolish and blind fanboyism to either system.

    The trinity has many advantages, which I won't bother to analyze here, as they're easily found on the web, so saying that it dumbs games down or that it serves no purpose proves you have absolutely no clue about how MMORPGs work.


    Regardless, GW2's approach of non-trinity is lame and a gimmick.

  2. #122
    GW2 did everything new right but they forgot that old stuff are good too.

    Like endgame raids which most famously WoW is known for, are the best source of pve for guilds and large groups alike.
    If GW2 had raiding i would still play it more, but im not really into pugging 5 mans to get stuff and then epic loot. Just doesnt feel epic enough.

    In my opinion if wow and gw2 merged as a game, it would be the perfect mmo.
    It can be argued forever about what gw2 brings and what wow brings into the merged game so well just leave it at that. :P

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakhar View Post
    Sorry, but you're wrong. The trinity has long outlived its usefulness. It was once a necessity because the technology of the time wouldn't allow a more elegant solution, but now it's the appendix of MMORPGs. It serves no purpose other than being a relic of the past, but it continues to haunt us by dumbing down new games because people are afraid of change (or requiring some skill, apparently).
    I wouldn't say it's an outdated concept, it works very well in games created around it. Case and point: WoW. Having a proper holy trinity allowed its devs to create amazingly challenging boss fights that you'd never be able to implement in a game with no holy trinity. I can only speak from a raid healer's PoV, but for me no other game's ever come even close to the adrenaline rush you get from healing on a very difficult boss fight, especially when your guild is going for a good world ranking. Pulling it off is just pure art.

    Now as I've said GW2 would be much better off with an 'inbetween' solution, but that doesn't mean those who favour the holy trinity style are bad/less skilled. In fact, difficulty-wise nothing in GW2 is even remotely as challenging as your average normal-mode raid boss in WoW. That is because GW doesn't reward or even allow teamplay to the same extent as other MMOs.

  4. #124
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Dynamic events - the world feels alive. I know some people say that it's just the same ole fetch this, escort that, defend those guys type quest tasks, but it really feels different. I'm not being sent off halfway across the map to kill X number of something only to return (which just feels like a time sink), I'm seeing the story played out right in front of me. I am being attacked! not finding mobs to attack.

    Others have said it's not really dynamic since the events cycle. This has some merit but this way we don't have to deal with phasing and we can replay events we find enjoyable.

    I know some people have expressed concerns with the lore not being in the forefront with quest text, but D/Es feel more natural - you learn the lore in bits and pieces, overhearing snippets of conversations, taking part in an event, reading a journal or book you find on the ground.

    Some of the most epic dynamic event chains take place in Orr - one of my favorites is the one that plays out across the zone of Malchor's Leap and tells the story of Malchor the Sculptor, his love for the goddess Dwayna and subsequent blindness, madness, suicide and reincarnation as a ghost. Being in that zone and hearing that heartrending cry, "DWAAAAYNA!!" sends chills up my spine every time.
    Valar morghulis

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Looking at it in an unbiased manner will tell you that each method offers benefits over the other and each have negatives but none are redundant.
    What are the benefits of the trinity, besides simplifying the system by defining a role for the player? Or are we talking about developers here, where it makes their job easier. You can't just look at where GW2 has failed on encounter design and call it a direct fault of removing the trinity.

    Quote Originally Posted by nevermore View Post
    Now as I've said GW2 would be much better off with an 'inbetween' solution, but that doesn't mean those who favour the holy trinity style are bad/less skilled. In fact, difficulty-wise nothing in GW2 is even remotely as challenging as your average normal-mode raid boss in WoW. That is because GW doesn't reward or even allow teamplay to the same extent as other MMOs.
    That's why I was agreeing with you. GW2 went to one extreme to show the hard trinity is garbage, but the best solution is clearly in between. You're falling into a trap here regarding difficulty, though. Trinity based games are not difficult. It all boils down to knowing mechanics and having the numbers, while being surrounded by enough other players who can do the same. Now, I'm not taking anything away from high-end raiders here, because they qualify for what I'm about to say. Skill comes in when you need to react to a situation (as mentioned previously: tank down, healer aggro, etc.), or formulate a strategy to beat an encounter, which is what defines those cutting edge guilds in WoW, et al. But all the other guilds that follow? They copy the strategy used by others, and slam their faces against the numbers wall until they beat enrage. That's not difficulty. Blizzard has some amazing encounter designs for sure, they've only gotten better with time. But they're handicapped by the trinity, not aided by it. ArenaNet, on the other hand, did not deliver on encounter design initially, but most people agree that the fractals bosses are a major step up from the original dungeons. Coordination, planning and skill are made that much more important when there is no trinity and no pre-defined "role" for you to play.

    Again, I'm not praising GW2 here, but the non-trinity approach is in the best interest of all future MMOs, because the trinity was nothing more than a technological cockblock that has only proliferated because: WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfsage View Post
    Regardless, GW2's approach of non-trinity is lame and a gimmick.
    Anyone that tries to rebut me and follows with a ridiculous qualifier like that ^ will give me plenty of lolz over any "insight" they may have.
    Last edited by Drakhar; 2013-02-20 at 02:53 PM.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakhar View Post
    Sorry, but you're wrong. The trinity has long outlived its usefulness. It was once a necessity because the technology of the time wouldn't allow a more elegant solution, but now it's the appendix of MMORPGs. It serves no purpose other than being a relic of the past, but it continues to haunt us by dumbing down new games because people are afraid of change (or requiring some skill, apparently).
    Can't really agree with that. Defined roles in an encounter generally mean that the encounter can entail a higher level of complexity. A quick example would be something like Valrithria in ICC. A fight like this wouldn't work all that well in a game like GW2.

    Or to put it differently, if all players have a somewhat equal level of survivability / dps / healing, one fight to another eventually becomes generic, because all players have the same *type* of responsibility. Focused roles are a good thing in MMO's, and in my own experience seem to be something that is subconciously strived for. Exploiting focused roles during a fight makes things more interesting.

  7. #127
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    No holy trinity - Not having my usefulness defined by my role is a big plus to me. For example, brought a new fella into our dungeon group the other day and at one point he exclaims to our warrior, "Holy shit where are you getting all those stacks of might?" Well, that was me, rolling an ele build that stacks might like crazy on my teammates

    The fights do feel more chaotic, more real - not just me dpsing behind a tank taking damage with a healer keeping me up. But a well-oiled team reduces and controls the chaos, showcasing the skill in this system.

    Dodge system - good stuff. Split second timing for the danger aspect and playing full on Arcana ele makes it really fun.

    Downleveling - Brilliant for keeping all content current. I still feel overpowered when I go to low level zones (which is ok if I'm feeling lazy), but most zones I have to pay attention.

    Skills defined by weapons - this is a bit misleading, the skills are defined by both weapon and profession. A mesmer wielding a staff is casting very different spells than a staff wielding guardian.

    Mesmer:
    1 - Dmg foes/apply boons + conditions
    2 - Teleport/summon clone/apply boons + conditions
    3 - Summon illusion/dmg
    4 - Boons + conditions
    5 - Boons + conditions

    Guardian:
    1 - Aoe dmg
    2 - Heal allies
    3 - Dmg + swiftness
    4 - Might + heal allies
    5 - Create a line that foes cannot cross

    Your weapon choices determines which of your skills you have access to. Some professions can wield up to 4 weapons with swapping, it gives the game complexity when selecting your traits and skills.
    Valar morghulis

  8. #128
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Combo fields - My main is an elementalist, combos are my bread and butter. If my fields are on cd I look for other's fields to pop my finishers in. Very satisfying to get these off.

    Downed state - adds an element of urgency to the gameplay. Will I wisp away, rally off a low health mob/player or will I die?

    Multi Guild - not overly impressed with this, most guilds want 100% rep anyways. I keep my non-rep guilds as extended friends lists.

    GW2's take on RvR - first time I've ever played a RvR game. It's like old school Alterac Valley on crack with a sideorder of steriods. Thumbs up.

    Skill & Build system - Great depth in this system. Love the flexibility, enjoy tinkering with different traits/skills to maximize certain aspects of my gameplay.

    sPvP Lobby - I haven't done a ton of sPvP yet, been waiting on the ranking system. The lobby is cool that you can test builds at max level for free.

    Cosmetic progression - Love it. So much creativity in this game! People have come up with some of the most amazing looks and the legendary weapons are incredible.
    There is the slight advantage offered by the new ascended gear, but it's not a gear gate - you don't need it to complete any of the content so it works for me.
    Valar morghulis

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Can't really agree with that. Defined roles in an encounter generally mean that the encounter can entail a higher level of complexity. A quick example would be something like Valrithria in ICC. A fight like this wouldn't work all that well in a game like GW2.

    Or to put it differently, if all players have a somewhat equal level of survivability / dps / healing, one fight to another eventually becomes generic, because all players have the same *type* of responsibility. Focused roles are a good thing in MMO's, and in my own experience seem to be something that is subconciously strived for. Exploiting focused roles during a fight makes things more interesting.
    Great you talk about complexity in the game and you throw one of the most boring bosses of ICC out as an example...
    Tanks+dps just zerg down mobs like it's trash whoopie. Healers fly through hoops on paladins and do 150k hps...

    Fights are generic regardless of there being a trinity or not. It's always the same, avoid fire +dps or hps.

  10. #130
    I have been playing the game for a little over 3 weeks now, I love the leveling and dynamic events and chaining. I leveled to lvl 35 in a lvl 15 zone, how epic is that. I love that content is always relevant, you can do lower lvl dungeons and still get lvl 80 gear from them.

    And on the whole holy trinity thing, I think there are remnants of it still in the game, for instance if im not mistaken a player with a lot of toughness will pull more aggro than someone with a base amount. Guess who is going to stack toughness, a tankish person which in this game can be anyone who chooses that role. But most dungeons I have run there is either a warrior or a guardian tanking pretty much. and everyone else is DPSing and healing at the same time. I for one love how they have done it, I can play a dps character and not be told im useless.
    Last edited by schwank05; 2013-02-20 at 03:28 PM.

  11. #131
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Other things I like:
    Everyone gets loot for the kill - none of this rolling or loot master nonsense.
    Shared resource nodes.
    Buying gem store items or realm transfers with ingame gold.
    World wide Trading Post - not limited by realm, no player can control the AH.
    Jumping puzzles - yessssss
    Monthly content patches - I don't know how they are getting stuff out so fast but I like it.
    No rooted casting - can't go back to any other way.
    Extremely rare server downtime.

    Room to grow:
    sPvP - need ranking system, spectator mode, prize money
    Guild mgt tools - mail, last online, ways to recruit, just need them, all the things
    More guild events - Guild Missions are coming in a couple days, looking forward to this.
    A more fleshed out achievement and title system
    Fix the culling problem already!
    More dynamic events in WvW - weather storms, dragons attacking castles, etc.
    Saving builds, more collectible slots and other QoL stuff

    So, is it really innovative? Many of these things have been done in other games but GW2 brings it all of these elements together in a way that hasn't been done before, set in a gorgeous interactive world. It's no wonder the game is a smashing success.
    Valar morghulis

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Can't really agree with that. Defined roles in an encounter generally mean that the encounter can entail a higher level of complexity. A quick example would be something like Valrithria in ICC. A fight like this wouldn't work all that well in a game like GW2.

    Or to put it differently, if all players have a somewhat equal level of survivability / dps / healing, one fight to another eventually becomes generic, because all players have the same *type* of responsibility. Focused roles are a good thing in MMO's, and in my own experience seem to be something that is subconciously strived for. Exploiting focused roles during a fight makes things more interesting.
    Actually, every raid boss could be implemented perfectly well in a non-trinity system (except bosses that require taunt swaps, but even those could be adapted, especially if body blocking worked). Sure, numbers would need to be tuned for not having dedicated healers, but the general mechanics of any trinity fight could work in a non-trinity environment.
    Last edited by rhandric; 2013-02-20 at 04:04 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  13. #133
    To throw my hat into the Holy trinity debate, despite my antagonism to the idea when I originally heard it, I think allowing the holy trinity ALONGSIDE the more chaotic group dynamic GW2 has would be the best option. I know the argument against this would simply be that everyone would simply adopt the trinity style and be done with it, but allowing non trinity groups the ability to also finish a dungeon while still allowing the trinity to exist is more a step in the right direction, rather than the large overstep that GW2 did.

  14. #134
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakhar View Post
    What are the benefits of the trinity, besides simplifying the system by defining a role for the player? Or are we talking about developers here, where it makes their job easier. You can't just look at where GW2 has failed on encounter design and call it a direct fault of removing the trinity.
    It would be pointless of me to continue a debate with someone so blinded, your'e in your bubble stay there for all I care, just dont call me wrong when clearly trinity is here to stay. Funny thing is non trinity encounters were successfully designed before trinity and yet trinity is the archaic one.

    Actually, every raid boss could be implemented perfectly well in a non-trinity system
    I would argue that the reverse is not true
    How could you even argue that, can you name one boss developed in GW2 that could not be impelemented perfectly with, as you put it, the 'tweaking' of numbers that would entail the opposite. All bosses boil down to avoid/survive damage and dps and you seriously think putting in a healer and a tank would suddenly be beyond this mechanic?
    Last edited by draykorinee; 2013-02-20 at 03:54 PM.

  15. #135
    I think all fights can be converted from trinity to non-trinity and vice-versa

  16. #136
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    I think all fights can be converted from trinity to non-trinity and vice-versa
    Of course they could that much I thought would be obvious and beyond any argument clearly not. Although as boring as valiona may appear it certainly would be a challenge to make it non trinity based....not impossible though. Any fight based solely on one role like that really isnt great encounter design, although i found it fun it was pretty braindead fun.

    I swear the more I learn to enjoy GW2 the game the less I enjoy some of the witterings in the subforum.
    Last edited by draykorinee; 2013-02-20 at 04:08 PM.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Defined roles in an encounter generally mean that the encounter can entail a higher level of complexity. A quick example would be something like Valrithria in ICC. A fight like this wouldn't work all that well in a game like GW2.
    GW2 could totaly do this kind of fights: just let the players grab medikit and heal the boss instead of killing it.
    In fact, with this weapon system, lots of unique encounters could be designed imho.

  18. #138
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aSynchro View Post
    GW2 could totaly do this kind of fights: just let the players grab medikit and heal the boss instead of killing it.
    In fact, with this weapon system, lots of unique encounters could be designed imho.
    Yes, thats not a bad thought, I could see that working. It is still not the valiona encounter, it is still a reworked encounter which is why there is a place for both styles, trinity and non, neither cancelling each other out both offering benefits and negatives to the individual player and to the group as a whole. To claim otherwise is just over the top bias.
    Last edited by draykorinee; 2013-02-20 at 04:52 PM.

  19. #139
    There's lots of ways to make a fight like that work in GW2, it won't be a 1 on 1 conversion but that's to be expected.

    1. A potion that makes you do *-1 dmg vs X with X being the boss that needs to be healed.
    2. A medikit that changes your skills
    3. Each wave removes 1stack of "bleeding" of the boss while an npc is healing it (boss starts at X% health) at first the boss loses health since the npc can't outheal the amount of stacks.
    4. A button system where at different points in the room is a guarded button(+respawn and randomised). Each time you click the button the boss gets +x% hp. The boss has an inherit degen mechanic
    5. ...

    Those are all similar fights using mechanics that exist in GW2.

  20. #140
    You can't do a straight conversion from one system to another but you can have the ideas of the encounters in both systems. There are some interesting encounters there and I hope they continue to develop them with those in mind.

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