Changes to Expertise System Soon

[Arlee]

Rob did a lot of posting about this, so here's a consolidation of his posts/answers. Should with some confusion about how this works.

Originally Posted by SWTOR

Thanks for the ideas! We are actually making some changes to the expertise system and how bolster interacts with the players in an upcoming Game Update (more info on this Update coming VERY soon), and this seems like a reasonable place to reveal some details about it, so buckle up and hold on!

To give everyone a common base of knowledge, let me briefly discuss how bolster and expertise work on the live servers as of right now (Game Update 1.7). Expertise is pretty easy, it is a diminishing returns rating that increases the damage output against other players, gives damage reduction against other players, and increases healing on targets who are in PvP. As you get higher in value of expertise, you need more and more rating to achieve the same increase (hence, the diminishing returns). Expertise only comes on PvP items, but inside PvP expertise is designed to be better bang for your buck than normal "PvE" stats.

The bolster system looks at a player's level and makes an assumption of the stats a player at that level would have and increases them to a target level defined by the designers. Bolster totally ignores what the player ACTUALLY has for stats, it doesn't matter if you are naked or fully geared out, it will give you the same bonuses either way. Notably, bolster will *not* give any expertise stat in Game Update 1.7.

In a major upcoming Game Update, everything changes, woo! Expertise still touches the same 3 functions (damage out, damage in, and healing out), but is no longer is a diminished return value, you get the same increase in power for the same increase in expertise, regardless of going from 0 to 20 or 2000 to 2020. We've also cranked up just how much expertise enhances each of these functions, so having good expertise is more important than ever. Additionally, expertise is no longer a stat that will grow throughout a tier of items, all PvP gear will generate the same total of expertise (caveat: This statement only applies starting with the new gear in the new update. Previous PvP gear will not quite have the fully intended expertise totals).

The bigger change is in how we bolster and add stats to players to even out the playing field. Instead of focusing on player level, now the bolster system will take a look at each individual item on your character and use that as the baseline assumption of power for that item slot. We then bolster each slot up to what we feel is the "entry level" of PvP power, at which we think everyone can be happy playing without getting simply out geared to death. Effectively, we bolster players to something like what our recruit gear set tries to do now in 1.7, but with much better accuracy and effect. Additionally, the bolster system will now grant players expertise when it feels it is necessary, bringing our entry-level power gap even closer to the end-game PvP power.


All of this put together should make our Warzone matches much more about skill in this future game update, and less about people who simply aren't in the correct gear, while still giving our PvPers some better gear out there to strive for.

Thanks for listening!

(Source)

Originally Posted by SWTOR

Originally Posted by Okamakiri:
That sounds very interesting. I wonder how that will work with high end PVE gear. Does it mean that the better the item is, the less expertise it will receive from bolster? Maybe a better approach would be bolstering everyone to equal expertise level, but reducing their PVE stats based on the amount of bolster received?

That's basically correct. There is a certain item rating level that once an individual item slot goes over that rating, it starts only getting expertise for its bolster (no more "PvE" stats). As the item rating continues to rise, you get less and less expertise until eventually bolster doesn't get anything from that item. The result should be that in the best PvE gear, you are somewhere between the "introduction bolster" level and the top end PvP gear in power. You would still be better off swapping to PvP gear if you have it, but you aren't terrible.

Also worth pointing out that this system works on an individual item basis, so each slot itself is bolstered up independently of all of the other slots on a character, so slots can give more of a bolster bonus than others if you have a really powerful item in your chest slot, as an example, but a really behind the curve implant.

(Source)

Originally Posted by SWTOR

Originally Posted by xContex:
This is a pretty significant change. My only question is will Damage output, DR, and Healing output become a 1:1:1 ratio essentially negating expertise for those in PVP gear boiling it down to personal customization and skill (while maintaining a slight advantage over PVE geared players) or will the ratios be different.

We've increased the effectiveness of Expertise over having no expertise at all, but if an attacker with full expertise is shooting at a defender will full expertise, their expertise effectively cancels each other out.

(Source)

Originally Posted by SWTOR

Originally Posted by TUXs:
Thank you Rob!!!

Is Bolster an ongoing calculation, or is it determined upon entry into a warzone? I ask because I worry that a player could abuse the new system by equipping lvl 10 green gear, then once the fight begins, switch to his EWH set.

It is ongoing, to prevent exactly the abuse you are worried about.

(Source)

Originally Posted by SWTOR

Originally Posted by Okamakiri:
Thanks for responding. However, if I'm interpreting your response correctly, that means that top end PVE gear would receive none or next to none expertise. This, as you put it, would put us somewhere between "introduction bolster" level and top end PVP gear in power, but only on damage output. The damage reduction provided by expertise cannot be replicated by any PVE stats, and thus PVE gear would still be far inferior to PVP gear. Now, I don't think any PVE'er would try to argue that their gear should be equally viable in PVP as PVP gear. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to be at least competitive by performing as good as PVP gear a tier below it (i.e. DG, which is equivalent of EWH, performing at WH level in PVP). Thanks

You've got the crux of the idea, but I think when you are able to see all the items it will be more clear. Fundamentally, PvP gear will have lower stats then PvE gear (expertise excluded), including endurance. So high end PvE gear characters will have bigger health pools, but take more damage. The result of this interaction should get us to point of balance between the gear sets we are shooting for.

(Source)

Originally Posted by SWTOR

Originally Posted by UberDuberSoldat:
Rob, can you comment on what the new total maximum expertise achievable will be?

Currently it's what, 1395?

With the changes you're mentioning and the removal of diminishing returns, this implies all PvP players will want to max expertise on every gear set.

I don't know what the exact number is off the top of my head, but one of the aspects of the system is that newPvP gear, regardless of what "tier" it is, will hit cap expertise. That is, getting higher level PvP gear won't increase your expertise stat, just more of every other stat.

(Source)

Originally Posted by SWTOR

Originally Posted by TUXs:
I may be mistaken, but I believe Bolster is always active in a warzone as it is, 1-49 and 50. This really doesn't change that at all.

Truth. Bolster on live right exists in level 50 Warzones, it just doesn't do anything (since everyone is at the level it tries to bolster too). With the switch to the rating system, the bolster effect will still exist in Warzones of all levels, and now will do something if the player's gear isn't up to the task.

(Source)

Originally Posted by SWTOR

Originally Posted by sphyg:
This scares me Robby.

I really enjoy your game and hope this doesn't negatively affect it.

Remember my original comment, the goal is for high end PvE gear to come into the power gap between the recruit bolster level and PvP gear. We still want actual PvP gear to be better than PvE gear, so you are always better off wearing the gear specifically made for the content you are consuming.

(Source)

[Deleted]

All nice but needed most is a matchmaking system, that either doesn't keep feeding newbs to EWH geared premades or adjusts the rewards or both. Chess got it right, Starcraft II got it right, Bioware doesn't get it at all.

[WarpedAcorn]

All nice but needed most is a matchmaking system, that either doesn't keep feeding newbs to EWH geared premades or adjusts the rewards or both. Chess got it right, Starcraft II got it right, Bioware doesn't get it at all.

The problem with matchmaking, or any system really, is that is can be and will be gamed. If the system works off of Gear Item Level, then players will queue up in recruit gear and switch when the match starts. If it works off of some sort of internal win/loss system, then you have people win trading, throwing matches, or leaving to keep their rating low.

One thing I have seen suggested, and *might* work is tweeking the backfill option. Getting smoked by a premade isn't fun, but less fun is coming in half-way through a losing game.

[RoninaThorstone]

Wow.

After reading all of that, I can't help but ask, "Why?".

PVP gear, PVP stats, bolster, ect ect ect.

Just remove it all and replace it with normalization while in WZs/FFA open world. Regardless of your gear, your classes has X stats modified by talents. The end. If there's healing / dps imbalances, add an aura for when you are PVP flagged or in a wz/ffa open world that reduces healing or something.

They are putting so much effort into sticking with a WoW pvp gear system. Such a waste of fucking time and effort.

edit: I don't go to GDC anymore so if anyone sees these guys at pax, gdc, or e3 please tell them to stop trying to be WoW

[Kelimbror]

I stopped at

All of this put together should make our Warzone matches much more about skill in this future game update, and less about people who simply aren't in the correct gear, while still giving our PvPers some better gear out there to strive for.

because it doesn't make any sense.

In essence they want everyone to have the same stats, but they are going to use complicated math forumlas that have multiple variables, instead of just making everything the same no matter what?

All in some openly stated ideology to keep players PvPng because of a psuedo gear grind.

I don't even...

[RoninaThorstone]

Quick! Someone get to the meme generator and make a Giorgio saying "I'm not saying gear matters... But gear matters"!


edit: You know, lately I've been willing to soften my tone about swtor because I felt that they were making some progress. But the past few days have blown my fuckin mind. I almost miss when they were silent.

[Arlee]

I stopped at because it doesn't make any sense.

In essence they want everyone to have the same stats, but they are going to use complicated math forumlas that have multiple variables, instead of just making everything the same no matter what?

All in some openly stated ideology to keep players PvPng because of a psuedo gear grind.

I don't even...

Yea... Honestly if they want to make gear not matter they just need to make everyone in PvP have the same gear, instead of changing the effects of the gear you have to even everything out. It's just odd.

Quick! Someone get to the meme generator and make a Giorgio saying "I'm not saying gear matters... But gear matters"!

Or lets not

[WarpedAcorn]

Just remove it all and replace it with normalization while in WZs/FFA open world. Regardless of your gear, your classes has X stats modified by talents. The end. If there's healing / dps imbalances, add an aura for when you are PVP flagged or in a wz/ffa open world that reduces healing or something.

They are putting so much effort into sticking with a WoW pvp gear system. Such a waste of fucking time and effort.

edit: I don't go to GDC anymore so if anyone sees these guys at pax, gdc, or e3 please tell them to stop trying to be WoW

The one thing to consider is that many players "tweek" their stats from the standard WH / EWH Equipment pieces in order to attaint a specific amount of Crit, Surge, Accuracy, ect... So normalizing stats would work against a lot of players. GW2 does it a little different by having your major stats tied to a few interchangable set pieces and spec. That's something that works for that particular game, but I don't think it could work in SWTOR.

Ultimately, gearing isn't really an issue. You can get WH gear super fast, and upgrading the EWH doesn't give you that many stats to make a bad player capable of beating a good player. It gives a slight advantage in the same way that having all the Datacrons unlocked (which hopefully will also go Legacy wide someday) or Augmenting all your gear with epic Augs.

[Kelimbror]

Quick! Someone get to the meme generator and make a Giorgio saying "I'm not saying gear matters... But gear matters"!

edit: You know, lately I've been willing to soften my tone about swtor because I felt that they were making some progress. But the past few days have blown my fuckin mind. I almost miss when they were silent.

Left hand and right hand, not talking, etc.

It seems some other teams have their heads in the clear, creating some solid changes to the game and trying to move in a great direction.

Then there's this guy...who...I don't even know. It's like they can't decide whether they want GW2 pvp or WoW PvP, so they're going to implement a convoluted system to try and do both, but fail at them all.

Then there's that Cartel Market dbag who needs to be castrated.

Overall I feel like this game is getting better, but like you said I still don't know how to take anything when decisions can be so incredibly all over the place.

---------- Post added 2013-02-21 at 11:32 AM ----------

Ultimately, gearing isn't really an issue. You can get WH gear super fast

This is a logical fallacy. The speed at which you can come to the most ideal situation of the problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. PvP will never be skill based under a gear system no matter how quickly the margins can be trimmed.

For people who actually PvP to PvP, gear is always the problem.

[RoninaThorstone]

The one thing to consider is that many players "tweek" their stats from the standard WH / EWH Equipment pieces in order to attaint a specific amount of Crit, Surge, Accuracy, ect... So normalizing stats would work against a lot of players.

You could easily do it by having it adjust for budget.

If of your 2400 ILV worth of stats, 50% of it is stamina than 50% of your X (being the normalized level) ilv for stamina would be 50% of X.

Still insanely easy.

[Deleted]

The problem with matchmaking, or any system really, is that is can be and will be gamed. If the system works off of Gear Item Level, then players will queue up in recruit gear and switch when the match starts. If it works off of some sort of internal win/loss system, then you have people win trading, throwing matches, or leaving to keep their rating low.

Win trading happens now, leaving happens as well, mostly in sub 50 though. Even if we got more of it, it would still be far better than having premades in EWH especially on week-ends rolling everything that happens to be in their way. Or limit the maximum daily rewards to keep the morons out after a while, you don't have grandmasters in chess or Starcraft playing beginners and in the ultrarare cases you do, you don't reward them for winning. It's the exact replica of level 19 twinking in WoW, you have a handful of clowns ruining it for the majority.

[WarpedAcorn]

This is a logical fallacy. The speed at which you can come to the most ideal situation of the problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. PvP will never be skill based under a gear system no matter how quickly the margins can be trimmed.



For people who actually PvP to PvP, gear is always the problem.

This is true, but what I am saying is that the magnitude of the problem is over-exaggerated. Gearing up is not super difficult, and unlike GW2 PvP this flavor of PvP is note purely skill based.

There is also something to be said for the gear treadmill. It does keep people interested and invested.

You could easily do it by having it adjust for budget.



If of your 2400 ILV worth of stats, 50% of it is stamina than 50% of your X (being the normalized level) ilv for stamina would be 50% of X.



Still insanely easy.

I'm not sure if its insanely easy from a programmger's perspective because I'm not one, but I do like that concept. It would allow players to still customize their builds to maximize their potential, but also prevent the inevitable Recruit vs. EWH showdown.

Win trading happens now, leaving happens as well, mostly in sub 50 though. Even if we got more of it, it would still be far better than having premades in EWH especially on week-ends rolling everything that happens to be in their way. Or limit the maximum daily rewards to keep the morons out after a while, you don't have grandmasters in chess or Starcraft playing beginners and in the ultrarare cases you do, you don't reward them for winning. It's the exact replica of level 19 twinking in WoW, you have a handful of clowns ruining it for the majority.

The issue then becomes wait times. If 1 recruit-geared noob queues up amidst a sea of EWH guys...he is going to be waiting a long time to finally get in a match. Similarly if one EWH guy queues up amidst a sea of Recruits. And the same thing happens if 1 Pre-made group queues up amidst a sea of PUGs. I'd rather face a potential beat down vs. a geared PUG than sit on the fleet waiting in queue.

[RoninaThorstone]

I'm not sure if its insanely easy from a programmger's perspective because I'm not one, but I do like that concept. It would allow players to still customize their builds to maximize their potential, but also prevent the inevitable Recruit vs. EWH showdown.

It's how games make randomized items.

Each item has an "item level" which is the total budget of that item, within that budget stats, which have been given a value (ie: 1.22 crit = 1 value or something) and the game makes items, using a set of rules (ie: 40% stamina, 40% random primary stat , 20% random secondary stat), and the total is determined by the item level.

Either way, just because it might be hard doesn't mean they shouldn't do it instead of spinning their tires in mud. WoW has to reevaluate their pvp stat system every year because its a bad design that they have to keep bandaiding and they have the money and following to do so, I don't see swtor having that sort of slack.

[notorious98]

This is true, but what I am saying is that the magnitude of the problem is over-exaggerated. Gearing up is not super difficult, and unlike GW2 PvP this flavor of PvP is note purely skill based.

There is also something to be said for the gear treadmill. It does keep people interested and invested.

This is true. While I don't necessarily agree that it's the way it should be, it's the way a majority of people seem to want it. Rift toyed with normalizing their Warfronts and there was enough of a backlash for them to decide it wasn't something that their playerbase wanted, so they kept to the same grind. TOR should just keep things the way they've been. PvP seems to be one of the things that they've done the best aside from story content.

[RoninaThorstone]

This is true. While I don't necessarily agree that it's the way it should be, it's the way a majority of people seem to want it. Rift toyed with normalizing their Warfronts and there was enough of a backlash for them to decide it wasn't something that their playerbase wanted, so they kept to the same grind. TOR should just keep things the way they've been. PvP seems to be one of the things that they've done the best aside from story content.

There was a backlash because people don't want to be on an even playing field with people they consider newbs.

[WarpedAcorn]

This is true. While I don't necessarily agree that it's the way it should be, it's the way a majority of people seem to want it. Rift toyed with normalizing their Warfronts and there was enough of a backlash for them to decide it wasn't something that their playerbase wanted, so they kept to the same grind. TOR should just keep things the way they've been. PvP seems to be one of the things that they've done the best aside from story content.

Speaking of Rift, I would LOVE if SWTOR did something akin to their Planar Attunement. I thought that was like the most genius thing ever. Even at max level, you're constantly working on improving your character, if only in very small chunks.

[notorious98]

There was a backlash because people don't want to be on an even playing field with people they consider newbs.

Which takes it right back to the gear grind. Those players wanted a way to differentiate the amount of "effort" they put into PvP from those that hadn't put in any. One of the easiest ways to go about that is to create the gear grind. It's not perfect, but it'll create a bigger problem getting rid of it then it'll solve. Like I said. I don't agree with it, but it is what it is.

[RoninaThorstone]

Which takes it right back to the gear grind. Those players wanted a way to differentiate the amount of "effort" they put into PvP from those that hadn't put in any. One of the easiest ways to go about that is to create the gear grind. It's not perfect, but it'll create a bigger problem getting rid of it then it'll solve. Like I said. I don't agree with it, but it is what it is.

I don't think developers should be enabling people pairing skill with time, personally. I think it makes a toxic as hell community which in the long run is extremely bad for the health of a game.

Titles, cosmetic items, pets, mounts, achievements, rankings, ect should be enough. If its not, then those players are pvping for something other than pvp and its not good for them, the community, or development.

Usually, you seem people pair their self worth to their rankings which is extremely unhealthy.

[Deleted]

The issue then becomes wait times. If 1 recruit-geared noob queues up amidst a sea of EWH guys...he is going to be waiting a long time to finally get in a match. Similarly if one EWH guy queues up amidst a sea of Recruits. And the same thing happens if 1 Pre-made group queues up amidst a sea of PUGs. I'd rather face a potential beat down vs. a geared PUG than sit on the fleet waiting in queue.

Then we do the easiest thing of them all and let the customer decide. He can have a a) "fair" queue where the system tries to create balanced matches and b) "quick" queue where the systems just tries to get the teams filled up and matches started. We both know which one would be vastly preferred, don't we?

[notorious98]

I don't think developers should be enabling people pairing skill with time, personally. I think it makes a toxic as hell community which in the long run is extremely bad for the health of a game.

Titles, cosmetic items, pets, mounts, achievements, rankings, ect should be enough. If its not, then those players are pvping for something other than pvp and its not good for them, the community, or development.

Usually, you seem people pair their self worth to their rankings which is extremely unhealthy.

How is that any different from how society views success? Nobody sees the car or the shoes or the house for being just that. They see the price and attach value to a person based on that. This is just an extension of that. This is going to sound vulgar, but Mark Cuban was heard in a club saying the most profound thing he may have ever said. He said, "Every time I make another million dollars, my dick grows another inch."