Harder Content = Better?

[Crashdummy]

HOF is kind of nuts considering how much easier terrace is. I had he oppurtunty to share a lockout on terrace with a freind and did first boss of terrace. three pulls done. Took us four weeks to get past ambershaper and the only reason we got him was that on the kill he desided to reshape the same person every time in phase two and she just happened to be the one player in guild voted least likely to screw up.

Which is my point.

HoF is overtuned and its blocking dozens of thousands of guilds. It should have been nerfed already but Blizzard refuses too. MSV and Terrace are mostly fine.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 10:57 AM ----------

HoF difficulty is fine -_- (and I'm talking normal mode not heroic) Garalon (IMO) is not that hard of a boss Amber-Shaper is harder just for the fact that it requires people at RANDOM to get turned and they have to not only interrupt themselves but also the add that comes out as well (which a lot of people fail at) Do I think it needs to e nerfed? No but I do however think the mechanics of it are fin stupid. To many things that CAN go wrong and 9 times out of 10 they do -_-

Garalon is VERY hard for dozens of thousands of guilds. The healing required to two heal it is too much for Normal middle-of-the-world guilds, and three healing make the enrage absudrly tight.

Amber shaper requires an adaptability that many normal people raiding doesnt have, as well as some good aoe damage that is not that easy for the kind of guilds i'm talking about.

Empress add phase has too much damage too for those kind of guilds.

At least that is what i am seeing, specially for 10 man, and numbers seem to give me the reason. Over 40k guilds killing Stone Guards Normal, 13k guilds killing on Empress Normal, 11k guilds killing on Sha of fear Normal.

[judgementofantonidas]

Which is my point.

HoF is overtuned and its blocking dozens of thousands of guilds. It should have been nerfed already but Blizzard refuses too. MSV and Terrace are mostly fine.

yeah. maybe it is. but I would not ask for it to be changed. enough people got past it that it has been proven to be doable. I for one will learn how to do it while relavant or come back and smear it after completing the expac to complete achievements for MOP.

[cidic]

Which is my point.

HoF is overtuned and its blocking dozens of thousands of guilds. It should have been nerfed already but Blizzard refuses too. MSV and Terrace are mostly fine.

How is HoF "overtuned"? Seriously explain that one to me. The fact that you actually have to have a group of people that know how to "communicate" and be able to "work together" as a team as it should be? I will agree HoF to ToES is a serious joke in going from a harder normal mode to pretty much a faceroll in ToES but HoF is honestly not that hard it's just kinda chaotic at times with a few bosses.

[Crashdummy]

yeah. maybe it is. but I would not ask for it to be changed. enough people got past it that it has been proven to be doable. I for one will learn how to do it while relavant or come back and smear it after completing the expac to complete achievements for MOP.

I dont consider the % number that got past it to be enough considerin 5 months of raiding with the item upgrade nerfing the content (and i would bet the 10 man % is lower, i think 25 man HoF is easier to pass it).

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 11:02 AM ----------

How is HoF "overtuned"? Seriously explain that one to me. The fact that you actually have to have a group of people that know how to "communicate" and be able to "work together" as a team as it should be? I will agree HoF to ToES is a serious joke in going from a harder normal mode to pretty much a faceroll in ToES but HoF is honestly not that hard it's just kinda chaotic at times with a few bosses.

I explained in the edit of the same post you are quoting.

[judgementofantonidas]

I dont consider the % number that got past it to be enough considerin 5 months of raiding with the item upgrade nerfing the content.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 11:02 AM ----------



I explained in the edit of the same post you are quoting.

overtuned would mean there is no way to beat it with current item levels. that it is not. there are players that completed it the week it was out with nothing more than the gear they accumulated from MSV. To prove this point I have refused to open the lockout on our HOF raid insisting that my players learn to complete it at the ilvl intended.

[Crashdummy]

overtuned would mean there is no way to beat it with current item levels. that it is not. there are players that completed it the week it was out with nothing more than the gear they accumulated from MSV. To prove this point I have refused to open the lockout on our HOF raid insisting that my players learn to complete it at the ilvl intended.

No, that would be impossible. Overtuned is the content beeing too hard for the playerbase attempting it.

Again, i think the 10 man is the main problem, because its harder to "tune it" yourself. If you change a healer for a dps in 25 man, the % you change is less than if you do that change in 10 man, making it harder to "tune it" yourself by doing such changes.

[cidic]

Garalon is VERY hard for dozens of thousands of people. The healing required to two heal it is too much for Normal middle-of-the-world guilds, and three healing make the enrage absudrly tight.

Amber shaper requires an adaptability that many normal people raiding doesnt have, as well as some good aoe damage that is not that easy for the kind of guilds i'm talking about.

Empress add phase has too much damage too for those kind of guilds.

At least that is what i am seeing, specially for 10 man, and numbers seem to give me the reason. Over 40k guilds killing Stone Guards Normal, 13k guilds killing on Empress Normal, 11k guilds killing on Sha of fear Normal.

My guild had issues the first 2 weeks or so with Garalon (we also had roster issues which caused those Garalon issues as well) Yet once we got out 10 man roster put back together he went down within a night. DPS wise yes he is tight on enrage timer yet I fail to see the issue with that considering dps that kills legs does (iirc 50% more damage) while they are standing in the legs circle.

Amber Shaper I agree on trust I still deal with it today with my guild and people that mess up but I don't think it needs to be changed people need to learn to adapt to a fight or maybe they should just not raid. I'm not trying to sound mean/rude or nasty about it but some people are just not cut out for raiding.

Empress add phase I don't have an issue with but again that's just me.

[Crashdummy]

My guild had issues the first 2 weeks or so with Garalon (we also had roster issues which caused those Garalon issues as well) Yet once we got out 10 man roster put back together he went down within a night. DPS wise yes he is tight on enrage timer yet I fail to see the issue with that considering dps that kills legs does (iirc 50% more damage) while they are standing in the legs circle.

Amber Shaper I agree on trust I still deal with it today with my guild and people that mess up but I don't think it needs to be changed people need to learn to adapt to a fight or maybe they should just not raid. I'm not trying to sound mean/rude or nasty about it but some people are just not cut out for raiding.

Empress add phase I don't have an issue with but again that's just me.

Again, no fight is impossible, absolutely NONE, and they are achievable in pretty low gear.

Having said that, and lookling at numbers, we can say "Ok, we have almost 30k normal raiding noob guilds full of bad scrubs and 13k guilds worth of our attention" or we can look at the numbers and say "Ok, a HUGE amount of the playerbase is having problem on this mid tier bosses, there might be a tuning problem on them" which is my stance.

[judgementofantonidas]

No, that would be impossible. Overtuned is the content beeing too hard for the playerbase attempting it.

Again, i think the 10 man is the main problem, because its harder to "tune it" yourself. If you change a healer for a dps in 25 man, the % you change is less than if you do that change in 10 man, making it harder to "tune it" yourself by doing such changes.

I will not argue that ten man content is not currently the more challenging. 25 man is merely logistics.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 09:40 AM ----------

My guild had issues the first 2 weeks or so with Garalon (we also had roster issues which caused those Garalon issues as well) Yet once we got out 10 man roster put back together he went down within a night. DPS wise yes he is tight on enrage timer yet I fail to see the issue with that considering dps that kills legs does (iirc 50% more damage) while they are standing in the legs circle.

Amber Shaper I agree on trust I still deal with it today with my guild and people that mess up but I don't think it needs to be changed people need to learn to adapt to a fight or maybe they should just not raid. I'm not trying to sound mean/rude or nasty about it but some people are just not cut out for raiding.

Empress add phase I don't have an issue with but again that's just me.

I could se some coaching on empress phase II. we just got to her and it is busting our nuts. course our main difficulty was we had to pug in a tank because my co tank was out with momma for the weekend. Maybe a less smooshy co tank will make all the difference tonight.

[Deleted]

To be honest I would really like a progressive difficulty in raids and more hard modes. A little bit of this was brought back in Terrace, but more of this would be better imo. People will be doing exactly the same content, but people who are up for it can do it a little different and get better gear. Also the further you get into the raid, it should get harder. ICC is kind of a good example. You could pug the first few, but then the rest was too hard to do without gear/communication.

Also, the end tier bosses should be a lot harder than they are currently. Everyone will get to see the content at least, people can have attempts on the last bosses and still see (part of) the fight. LK is a prime example of this. The whole expansion is about this guy and you knew it the moment you saw the first bit of the fight. World first coming after 5% raid buff? Exactly, that's what a real end boss is. In Cata, the real end boss in my eyes was Ragnaros, without a doubt the hardest boss in the expac. Madness was a huge disappointment as the end game. It really did not feel like you were killing a really powerful being.

So far in MoP I haven't seen any boss which would give me that feeling. They are all generic fights and we've seen all the mechanics. They need to make this exciting in a different way.

[Deleted]

Nothing apperantly means

5 man dungeons
Quests
PvP in all it's shapes and sizes
Using professions for profit
Fishing
Non Raid related Achievments
Collecting mounts and pets
POKE MAN
Leveling Alternate toons
Experiencing story lines
Growing turnips
Mining/herbing
Running old content or transmog
Roll playing

Shocking how many things you can do besides raiding in WoW.
Personally its not about the hardest content being even harder its about the easiest content actually presenting a challenge. (LFR ends up feeling like playing heroin hero from south park). It is quite frankly just an insult to me as a player.
If only we could get the old wrath 10/25 seperate lockouts seperate difficulties back. Back then at least there was a risk of failure and a second format where you could have fun within a smaller group or try out new recruits for 25 man runs. And a lively pugging community.

[Osmeric]

I dont consider the % number that got past it to be enough considerin 5 months of raiding with the item upgrade nerfing the content

Especially when anyone who has been running LFR consistently is up around ilvl 485 or higher by now. And yet, just 38K guilds (as tracked by wowprogress) have downed the first boss of MSV?

[Deleted]

Especially when anyone who has been running LFR consistently is up around ilvl 485 or higher by now. And yet, just 38K guilds (as tracked by wowprogress) have downed the first boss of MSV?

It is probably not a question of difficulty but more a question of:
Why schould people be bothered with joining raiding guilds, when you still end up having to run LFR anyways when the next patch comes?
½ hour quee for each lfr with 5 lfrs each taking roughly an hour thats 7½hours of my time used to get into and complete mindnumbingly stupid content.

[NeverStop]

Especially when anyone who has been running LFR consistently is up around ilvl 485 or higher by now. And yet, just 38K guilds (as tracked by wowprogress) have downed the first boss of MSV?

Honestly the number should be lower. Normal raids shouldn't be this easy.

[sariouso]

I think that the challenge plays a role in the fun, but it needs to be the right amount. If it is too easy, it is disappointing, likewise if it is too difficult it is just irritating.

[Pann]

Honestly the number should be lower. Normal raids shouldn't be this easy.

So you think that the first boss in a normal raid should be so difficult that 90% of the player base are unable to kill it?

[Osmeric]

Honestly the number should be lower.

Zero sounds good. That way, Blizzard can stop bothering with normal or heroic mode raiding at all.

Of course, if Blizzard doesn't want to do that, some competitor could come in with an LFR-only MMO. I think it could do very well.

[Otimus]

So you think that the first boss in a normal raid should be so difficult that 90% of the player base are unable to kill it?

Simply put: Some of these people live in their own little fantasy bubble, devoid of reality and when confronted with any sort of concrete facts, they go "LA LA LA LA LA LA" or just look at you confused and ignore it.

[Toxigen]

When I hear that progression raiders take several hundreds of wipes to clear a heroic boss, I don't feel awe... I feel sorry for them. I would never spend that much time on the game let alone on a single boss. I don't even think they are "better", what I do think is that they are more dedicated to the game.

Oh, trust me, we're better players.

[HardCoder]

Simply put: Some of these people live in their own little fantasy bubble, devoid of reality and when confronted with any sort of concrete facts, they go "LA LA LA LA LA LA" or just look at you confused and ignore it.

The fact that someone can do X in the game and likes doing it means obviously that Blizzard designs the game purely for people who do X and in particular designs it just for that person.

Or something like that.