What if 5.2 isn't enough for us (pvp)

[theherecy]

Here are a couple of things that can be done:

- Assassin: the spec is really strong IMO, giving it burst would be too much.

If you're not getting kited, from experience if you don't have 100% uptime then you've got nothing :/

[Verain]

Here are a couple of things that can be done:

- Assassin: the spec is really strong IMO, giving it burst would be too much. I'd rather see some minor changes such as venomous wounds benefiting equally from rupture and garrote (now rupture ticks each 2 sec and garrote each 3 sec, hence garrote venomous wounds are 50% less effective) and having an assassination-specific version of anticipation (that stores say up to 1 or 2 combo points past 5) since this is the spec where you overcap combo points the most.

I generally disagree.

Off topic: I've been testing assassin lately in duels and found it to be a real warrior killer. I take subterfuge and nerve strike. I reforge to haste and have 20% of it self-buffed (and 56% pvp power). The opener is: sap -> garrote at 90 degrees to not break sap with auto-attacks -> slice n dice -> cheap shot. So i get both venomous wounds and slice up. When cheap is over they are sometimes at or below 50% from auto attacks and poisons, it's just crazy what you can do in these 5 seconds. Then I faint and for the next 6 seconds the warrior does 50% less damage and I take 30% less. So go figure... Second wind doesn't help either due to dispatch being spammable in that range. So the spec has 2 very strong perks: heavy sustained damage and heavy execute damage. Buffing its burst is not a good idea.

So... your conclusion drawn here is pretty strong. Are you fighting equally geared warriors, or is this a pretty aces thing you do in battlegrounds when you aren't arenaing? I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the second thing, but the moderate damage boost of dispatch certainly doesn't make second wind "not help". I suspect your experience is drawn versus warriors who aren't in your gear. But even if you were correct- the devs have certainly made plenty of matchups extremely unfair, far less fair than mutilate rogue versus arms warrior, because the game is generally balanced around arena. If we wanted to talk about 1v1 balance, second wind would not even be on the table as an ability.

Please take mutilate to arena, though. I think you will see what I am talking about!

- Sub: the effect from slice n dice can be implemented for recuperate so that you can decide if to go for more damage or some healing.

Agreed, it should be EITHER (aka, both should not stack). While slice was never a terrible call in previous times, it was not mandatory. Previously, recuperate was mandatory, and obviously kidney shot is too. Now it's recuperate, kidney shot, slice and dice, and also you need to roll rupture. This is double!

sanguinary vein can be made to benefit from hemo, which would however lower the skill cap for the spec a bit (which in itself is another way to buff it).

The problem here is that this change was actually made for pve. In Cataclysm, you had three finishers to worry about in pve. You had to maintain slice, recuperate, and rupture . That you refreshed rupture with a 5 point eviscerate didn't mean you could skip it, or that all three couldn't face expiration at around the same time, forcing you to optimize which ones you cilp and when. Nowadays, the only way they bribe you to not let rupture fall is to put SangV on it. I think they should NOT do it that way, of course- I think rupture should just deal enough damage to be good (it's actually pretty decent for sub, as part of SangV buffs its damage by like 50%).

GC promised at the time that they would offer compensatory buffs if the nerf proved crippling, so it was at least on their minds at the time. I do think the spec would be much stronger if they gave us other ways to do things- for instance, if recup or slice both offered the energy regen, and if there was a way to skip around mostly mandatory rupture.

- Combat: the spec is quite versatile with all its perks - long kidney, killing spree, cooldown reduction on finishers. It's just that all the sinister strike - eviscerate stuff is rather old and boring already.

While combat has good tricks, rogues aren't avoiding it because "it's boring". I do think the devs need to be careful with buffs though, as combat isn't as bad as the lack of rogues playing it would lead you to believe (whereas I'm pretty convinced mutilate is).

[jtstormrage]

I am only a casual pvper. However, personally I think we will fine in terms of mobility and survivability. Getting Prep back and Cloak and Dagger/alternatively buffed Shuriken Toss are very exciting. Also our stuns will nerf healing, Smoke Bomb can be used defensively and more energy on the four piece will also help our previously painful slow opening a lot.

The thing I am worried about is our damage. Sub damage is still low. I know we can burst out a lot during Dance but it is too vulnerable to cc and movement and we can easily lose that burst. I also still really hate the MOP SV changes and the extra ramp up required unless you are opening with Garrote.

[Nyaldee]

If I'm wrong, and rogues need MORE help...

You aren't wrong my friend and things to factor apart from rogue buffs is class balancing as a wholle. Priests are looking great (traditionally one of rogue best friends), warriors/ferals took a well deserving nerfs, locks will be switching to affli (even thought it isn't looking good but competent RLS will be on a rise once again), ele shamans buffs will lead to more caster cleaves that we can counter hard with suriken CP building/deadly throw interrupt. And well prep will allow us to remain on offensive for longer or just go balls of the walls on smth still knowing we've "oh shit" button to fall back on. Besides on PTR SD is devastating with proper setup - way more then it should be tbh.

[bzhai]

Honestly I secretly wish that it won't be enough coz if it is Blizz will just rest on their laurels thinking rogues are fixed and once again continue to ignore the real issues, which is an outdated resource mechanic.

I don't care for the developers' excuse that rogues are designed to chip at opponents' defenses until they find a weakness. Try turning pallys, demo/destro lock, spriest and monk combo points to stick on target on like rogues and they'll realize what a clunky resource system it is. Not forgetting our talent tree still needs some major rethinking for some tiers.

So no, these latest buffs (more like un-nerfs) are not enough. What the class needs is some genuine time spent on the drawing board and some fresh ideas to make it unique again.

[Vorsyn]

So I seen this topic and stopped by out of curiosity,... seen like half the first page getting infracted for being "off topic." For the "topic" at hand, I don't see what else you expect here. If anything close down the thread, but these infractions come off as personal jabs at these users. IE something against rogues not liking the changes. Pretty distasteful if you ask me. How do you become an admin here? Looks like a pretty sweet deal, push around the community when you don't like their answers. Take it personal much?

Mod note: Moderation is a "forbidden topic" to post about on the forums. If you have issues with a moderator or moderator's actions, PM Sunshine.

[Dieselol]

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The thing I am worried about is our damage. Sub damage is still low. I know we can burst out a lot during Dance but it is too vulnerable to cc and movement and we can easily lose that burst. I also still really hate the MOP SV changes and the extra ramp up required unless you are opening with Garrote.

This exactly, this is the biggest issue. Setting up a kill takes forever and if you are getting focues (fainting and recup) makes it impossible to do any decent dmg.
They need to get rid of SV - rupture and give back hemo for SV. Juggling 5 finishers + 5 just feels clunky.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 01:18 PM ----------

So I seen this topic and stopped by out of curiosity,... seen like half the first page getting infracted for being "off topic." For the "topic" at hand, I don't see what else you expect here. If anything close down the thread, but these infractions come off as personal jabs at these users. IE something against rogues not liking the changes. Pretty distasteful if you ask me. How do you become an admin here? Looks like a pretty sweet deal, push around the community when you don't like their answers. Take it personal much?

I actually agree with you every time a little discussion comes up people get banned, infracted and topics closed. How are we supposed to discuss here. IMO the discussions are on a ok level, nothing to offensive or anything, but whatever, off topic :-)

Mod note: Moderation is a "forbidden topic" to post about on the forums. If you have issues with a moderator or moderator's actions, PM Sunshine.

[Coldkil]

Agreed, it should be EITHER (aka, both should not stack). While slice was never a terrible call in previous times, it was not mandatory. Previously, recuperate was mandatory, and obviously kidney shot is too. Now it's recuperate, kidney shot, slice and dice, and also you need to roll rupture. This is double!

The problem here is that this change was actually made for pve. In Cataclysm, you had three finishers to worry about in pve. You had to maintain slice, recuperate, and rupture . That you refreshed rupture with a 5 point eviscerate didn't mean you could skip it, or that all three couldn't face expiration at around the same time, forcing you to optimize which ones you cilp and when. Nowadays, the only way they bribe you to not let rupture fall is to put SangV on it. I think they should NOT do it that way, of course- I think rupture should just deal enough damage to be good (it's actually pretty decent for sub, as part of SangV buffs its damage by like 50%).

Agree with this. As an avid PvE rogue, i found the usage of Recuperate as sub extremely dull and clunky, since our PvE survivability is tied to completely different abilities and a rolling hot on us isn't that game-breaking. I welcomed this change, but i know it has been a huge nerf for PvP rogue. Making energetic recovery working on both should be cool (not stacking obviously) since PvP has little use for SnD and same goes for Recuperate and PvE.

While combat has good tricks, rogues aren't avoiding it because "it's boring". I do think the devs need to be careful with buffs though, as combat isn't as bad as the lack of rogues playing it would lead you to believe (whereas I'm pretty convinced mutilate is).

Combat (and assassination) aren't played because Sub is just more performing in a biggest variety of situations. Also most if not all PvP rogues have played Sub from the day arena has been introduced (not counting occasional builds like HARP or specific season).

It's like in PvE, Sub isn't much played and looks a lot worse than it really is (not saying it's better than Assa or combat, just it's not that bad).

[Mafic]

Rogues CP and energy regeneration is perfectly balanced in a PVP environment where there is an ebb and flow of moderate pacing. Where this falls apart is how fast paced PVP has become.

With that said I think Combat just needs some more toe-to-toe defensives and it will be good to go! Crit modifiers for Backstab should be re-introduced for Sub and Assassination simply may need another DPS cool down.

[Dieselol]

Rogues CP and energy regeneration is perfectly balanced in a PVP environment where there is an ebb and flow of moderate pacing. Where this falls apart is how fast paced PVP has become.

With that said I think Combat just needs some more toe-to-toe defensives and it will be good to go! Crit modifiers for Backstab should be re-introduced for Sub and Assassination simply may need another DPS cool down.

What assassination needs is "overkill" back. And Marked for death should be Cold blood 2.0 so 25 energy and 5cps for some extra pewpew. currently i find it a bit boring.

[Kael]

To anyone concerned about lost conversations - if I'm going to close a topic, I provide a reason, and if its a heavily covered topic, usually a link to a more active conversation on the topic. I don't want to see every thread about PvP devolve into the same conversation that happens in every single one, or there's only one conversation happening. I think you'll find that anything that leaves room for discussion or adds to a conversation/topic/idea is left alone. If not -

If you have questions about something you see on the forums, you can PM me. If you have concerns about moderation or moderator actions, PM Sunshine. Individuals with infractions are able to appeal them as well.

And back to the PvP discussion.

[Nudle]

Download 5.2 PTR, make a rogue lvl 90, get full Tyranical, go into a BG, rape, then re-post here if you will be dissappointed.

Seriously, how broken can rogues be to kill somebody just by ST+DT?!
I loved Cata rogue, it actually felt like playing a rogue in vanilla, stunlocking people...now I just run and jump, and I get HKs.