What if 5.2 isn't enough for us (pvp)

[Verain]

5.2 is bringing SUBSTANTIAL pvp buffs. Most of them are "unnerfs", taking us back to 4.0-4.2 and even 4.3 levels of play. 4.3 saw us as overpowered- not the most repped class or anything, but more rep than we should have had. 4.2 did not have this, and neither did 4.0 (where we were basically poor), yet sub was similar.

It is my opinion that 5.2 will probably be "enough"- our representation will rise to an appropriate number, and rogues will not be the tissue paper suited only to hold the issue of the superior classes popping swifty macroes.

But... what if I'm wrong? Many of the changes in MoP hurt the rogue class on a fundamental level. The inherent defenses of mutilate and combat rogues were deleted. The rotation a sub rogue gained an entire finisher to function (rupture), and HAT was nerfed to produce combo points under fewer conditions. AoE stuns, in many cases stuns that actually deal damage instead of costing the caster damage, were handed out to several classes, including classes that we haven't seen much of yet, such as monks (monks have almost tied rogues in main-rep at 90). Classes that were based around burst instead of CC now have (and will continue to have in 5.2) both. This is the least balanced season since season 1, and it's possible that some of this imbalance is due to the talent distribution- something that won't be repaired in 5.2. So, it's possible that rogues will need more help.


If I'm wrong, and rogues need MORE help... what would you like to see in 5.3, or hotfixed in 5.2? That's my question to the mmo-c rogues.

[Bryntrollian]

It will never be enough because blizzard will never get it right with rogues.

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[kubuntu]

For me
Rogue vs melee/hunter , Rogue sux
Rogue vs Caster , Rogue is OP

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[Deleted]

For me
Rogue vs melee/hunter , Rogue sux
Rogue vs Caster , Rogue is OP

This exactly.
We will still complain about dying to said classes
Casters will complain about dying to us

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[Verain]

This hasn't really gathered very useful responses. I don't know of any casters that currently complain about rogues ("I wish there were rogues to beat instead of all these warrior teams!", maybe) on live. I really don't see much "rock paper scissors" in the current game, and in duels rogues have been pretty poor since 5.0- but I'll confess, I don't really duel much.

There are a bunch of 5.2 buffs for rogues in pvp. I suspect they will be enough to put our rep back to appropriate numbers. By asking "what if I'm wrong", I'm trying to see what things about the rogue class people want to see improved or think would really help- in case we need it.

[Carp The Fish]

If 5.2 isn't enough, they'll bite the bullet and put back in either Backstab crit chance or Ambush crit chance, but they'll also scale back Sang Veins. Maybe also allow Sang Veins to be activated from Hemorrhage bleed. However, if they did either of those this late into the expansion, it may tip the scales too far and they get their nerf bat out instead of the re-design wand we want for 6.0.

[Deleted]

What if 5.2 isn't enough for us (pvp)?
Then its not. Whine more and maybe one day it will be.
U can always just quit if u dont like the game.

Edit: maybe one day ppl will realize they take this game way too seriously.
The formula to happiness in wow:
Enjoy the game = play
Dont enjoy = dont play

Infracted: trolling

[klaps_05]

if you complain about the status of rogues in 5.2 you should really reroll something, because rogues will be more fotm than warriors this expansion.

Infracted: trolling

[Kael]

I'm going to post this once, because the discussion really got off to the wrong start and I don't want to enter a thread by handing out even more infractions: this is the BEST genuine chance we've had to discuss what may be needed IF 5.2 doesn't buff us properly. Any posts talking about live, how 5.2 changes are enough, that we'll be FOTM, calling rogues crybabies or any other such nonsense WILL incur an infraction.

Bring it back to discussing options, where Verain and Carp left it. No one is complaining about the state of rogues; representation has been mentioned, as well as buffs, and that's the tone you should read this with.

EDIT: please make sure you think about what you're posting, and where you're posting it, before you post on a topic, and please make sure you've read more than the title. This holds true to all topics, and not just this one.

[Evi1Toad]

What do you mean "what would you like to see fixxed"? Is it strictly with rogues or other classes as well? Either way, I'd like to see CC scaled back for most classes, at least instant CC. CloS on a 1 min CD will be nice, and I think blind back to 2 mins was a good move. Personally, I want them to make shadowblades synergize with more than just combat. In sub/mut it just feels... clunky I guess. Also, there is still too much passive damage imo.

Some other threads have brought up on how the positioning req is rather out dated, it used to be a cost/benifit type thing, but I dont really think it hits hard enough to justify the position req. Also, if there is ever a ultrax style fight again, it is almost impossible to play as sub on it.

If you are strictly worried about our rep, a makover would probably be the key. Bliz basicly handed out legendaries in 4.3 and that did much more harm than good looking back. Even while we were overpowered there were hardly any rogues on my server.

[Deleted]

Phaaaaaaaaaaaaaa best joke ever ofc its not enough, you cant touch the other op god classes just try, try a druid, a retri paladin, what am i saying try to kill any other class, you cant touch it

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[celinamuna]

The rotation a sub rogue gained an entire finisher to function (rupture), and HAT was nerfed to produce combo points under fewer conditions.

Fairly sure that rupture was always a part of sub rotation....

[Verain]

Fairly sure that rupture was always a part of sub rotation....

Not in pvp. While you COULD eke out a bit more damage versus a full-uptime target, it was onerous to take the autorefresh talents (you lost other talents), and almost no rogues brought them to pvp of any form. You are correct in pve, that as a sub rogue you would want to use rupture- but pre-cata this was because it was narrowly more dps than eviscerate spam, and in Cata the weakened rupture would be auto-refreshed.

The big change was that Sang V. now requires one of Crimson Tempest, Rupture, or Garrote. Previously, it was any bleed (aka, hemo). This means that when you swap targets in pvp, you either need to spend resources to trigger one of those, or you need to be ok leaving damage on the ground (aka, if a target is about to die, bringing over a 5 point eviscerate could be plenty even without the damage buff).

We have seen some buffs to help this- for instance, we can garrote from the front now, and garrote is cheaper than it used to be.


If the 5.2 buffs aren't enough, I think the question will really be, what's going on with the other classes. It's very hard to predict the outcomes of patches- for instance, the only thing everyone (well, for values of "everyone" being, "players I normally pay attention to") was sure about this season was that warriors would be OP. Some thought wind walker would be strong, others claimed that holy paladins wouldn't be able to get enough casts off to make repentance matter, and those predictions, which would probably have been true in some other season, both didn't come to pass here.


In general, I think rogues could see something like this:

1)- One rogue spec should have combo points on the rogue instead of the target.
2)- GC hinted that slice and dice could be, in the future, not for all rogues, but just for one (or two) specs. A yellow-based spec with big numbers would probably gather a lot of attention to the class.
3)- I would personally like to see deadly throw baseline again. But, I don't know how much of that is desired power and how much is desired flavor.

I think that with nerfs to top-side outliers and buffs to uptime (shuriken throw, choice of gap closer) and baseline prep, we'll see a decent amount of high rated rogues in 5.2. I also think that Marked for Death will be used to power burst phases- any rogue running that is grabbing a free eviscerate during a kill cycle. Combined with the ability to pool more in pvp, I think we'll be in good shape.

[celinamuna]

Again, from my memory we would still want to use Rupture on armor heavy classes (warriors / dk's / paladins) basically all the time (outside of the slight period in ICC when we had just incredible armor pen).

Plus Sub is already yellow-based spec with big numbers. (Even in PvE)

However I agree, after playing in PvP on my mage (not the best comparison) i just can't force myself to play rogue again, when we get so much more counters ,hello warlocks with +500% aoe radius and priest's halo (which thankfully is getting nerfed).

But i am looking forward to trying sub in pvp once 5.2 hits.

[theherecy]

If 5.2 isn't enough, they'll bite the bullet and put back in either Backstab crit chance or Ambush crit chance, but they'll also scale back Sang Veins. Maybe also allow Sang Veins to be activated from Hemorrhage bleed. However, if they did either of those this late into the expansion, it may tip the scales too far and they get their nerf bat out instead of the re-design wand we want for 6.0.

And for the other specs? Whilst I don't mind sub, I prefer the other 2 specs, simply as I'm playing them for PVE and it's a lot of effort to juggle the constant respeccing, reglyphing, etc that come with it.

Assassination feels sluggish, hits hard but no burst. Combat almost the polar opposite, KS hits hard and adrenaline rush+sb+trink is lethal but any noob can see it coming and cc you, then you're left with nothing.

[Carp The Fish]

And for the other specs? Whilst I don't mind sub, I prefer the other 2 specs, simply as I'm playing them for PVE and it's a lot of effort to juggle the constant respeccing, reglyphing, etc that come with it.

Assassination feels sluggish, hits hard but no burst. Combat almost the polar opposite, KS hits hard and adrenaline rush+sb+trink is lethal but any noob can see it coming and cc you, then you're left with nothing.

There's not much for those 2 specs other than waiting/praying for a re-design. Assassination is getting some burst thanks to the PvP 4P giving more energy to use from the opener, but it still runs into the same "not enough energy to put out the big hits more often" problem. Combat doesn't change from the PvP 4P update.
I wish there was some other "Sinister Strike could be buffed like hell" option, but it just isn't there because of the PvE aspect of the game.

[Deleted]

Warrior nerfs are indirect rogue buffs. Rogues are fine in 5.1 atm expect for the fact that they get cleaved too hard by classes like warriors. But overall from what I've seen on ptr they're pretty good, especially damage wise.

[Verain]

Again, from my memory we would still want to use Rupture on armor heavy classes (warriors / dk's / paladins) basically all the time

Unusual (a pressure match where you aren't peeled versus plate), and a far cry from what you said earlier. In Cata rupture was hardly applied for damage.

Plus Sub is already yellow-based spec with big numbers.

Compare to frost DK, or arms warrior.

Assassination feels sluggish, hits hard but no burst. Combat almost the polar opposite, KS hits hard and adrenaline rush+sb+trink is lethal but any noob can see it coming and cc you, then you're left with nothing.

See, combat has a bunch of tricks. It has long stun, and killing spree even breaks roots. I actually think it might see some play in 5.2 with baseline prep and some decent ranged stuff. If it still doesn't see play, a possible thing could be to make kidney shot and recuperate work with restless blades.

Mutilate is a harder call. Losing Cold Blood hurt the spec, especially because it was basically just deleted. Mutilate has pretty low burst by any measure, and I think the idea is that pooling energy would be threatening- but it generally is not. Even in pvp we are forced to roll rupture, pushing us well into long setup land and choreographing our actions.

I think a bigger issue- and while this hurts rogues, plenty of classes are beset by it- is that Blizzard's current philosophy is that when a spec is weak, they just ignore it unless it's the only spec that does that role- then they buff it, often with talents or tricks. This is, IMO, pretty bad. If you look at every "supported" spec, it has something over the other specs. For instance, you are probably familiar with the fact that a lot of the frost-mage specific tricks were thrown into the talent tree. But even though deep freeze is baseline, fingers of frost and water elemental are frost only, and that really restricts when a mage can press his stun. Frost mage specific tricks aren't JUST down to dealing damage in bursts, as Blizzard has told us. Fire did keep the area gouge effect, and as such was viable until the nerfs hit (the nerfs were aimed at pve, but hurt pvp as well). Arms has overpower, which interacts with melee defenses (it punishes agi classes), and fury does not. I'm sure you've all used shadow dance to apply garrote or cheap shot- mutilate has nothing equivalent to this or to killing spree, and it absolutely should. Specs need to be about more than just a rotation. That kind of clean-room design only works in developer dreams- when we invest in a character, we want them to have strengths that make sense and powers that they are good at.

[Deleted]

Here are a couple of things that can be done:

- Assassin: the spec is really strong IMO, giving it burst would be too much. I'd rather see some minor changes such as venomous wounds benefiting equally from rupture and garrote (now rupture ticks each 2 sec and garrote each 3 sec, hence garrote venomous wounds are 50% less effective) and having an assassination-specific version of anticipation (that stores say up to 1 or 2 combo points past 5) since this is the spec where you overcap combo points the most.

Off topic: I've been testing assassin lately in duels and found it to be a real warrior killer. I take subterfuge and nerve strike. I reforge to haste and have 20% of it self-buffed (and 56% pvp power). The opener is: sap -> garrote at 90 degrees to not break sap with auto-attacks -> slice n dice -> cheap shot. So i get both venomous wounds and slice up. When cheap is over they are sometimes at or below 50% from auto attacks and poisons, it's just crazy what you can do in these 5 seconds. Then I faint and for the next 6 seconds the warrior does 50% less damage and I take 30% less. So go figure... Second wind doesn't help either due to dispatch being spammable in that range. So the spec has 2 very strong perks: heavy sustained damage and heavy execute damage. Buffing its burst is not a good idea.

- Sub: the effect from slice n dice can be implemented for recuperate so that you can decide if to go for more damage or some healing. Now you are forced to use slice n dice all the time. Another thing - sanguinary vein can be made to benefit from hemo, which would however lower the skill cap for the spec a bit (which in itself is another way to buff it). Another thing - sub can have a 1.5 sec subterfuge effect built into it, because it would fit the spec's general playstyle. Another idea - backstab at < 35% health to extend the duration of rupture: so that when you try to kill somebody you won't worry that rupture will go away and your damage will suddenly disappear. Cloak and dagger will address sub's main issue (IMO) which is that it's too easy to peel you during dance.

- Combat: the spec is quite versatile with all its perks - long kidney, killing spree, cooldown reduction on finishers. It's just that all the sinister strike - eviscerate stuff is rather old and boring already. What I'd like to see is a change to sinister strike to make it special - something other than x% of weapon damage + y. For example each sinister strike increases the damage of the next one stacking 4 times. Or sinister strike/revealing strike decrease the movement of the enemy by 4% stacking 5 times, additive to crippling poison for a net effect of 70% slow.

[Tenjen]

one thing we have to consider is how our changes will be relating to the changes other classes will receive. Too many times do i see estimates and logic based on changes to us but in relation to all the other classes current state in pvp.

If we're gonna think about 5.2 changes for us, we should consider the new environment we'll be in.