World Record Siege of Niuzao Temple - 10:17

[ripponesan]

Good job, good sharing!

[Deleted]

Back in the days people used to grab Ony / Hakkar / Nefarian Buffs before running raids (think Loatheb, glorious times except for warlocks and their soulstones).
[sarcasm]Clearly those encounters weren't designed with those powerful buffs in mind, all those guilds must have been cheating![/scarasm]

Another neat story: Blizzard Devs vs. Mogu'shan Palace Challenge Mode (at around 1h 32m)
Right after Gekkan, they evade the Mobs on the elevator.
Everyone does that, those Mobs are useless. Although everyone does it noone views it as cheating / bugging / exploiting, guess evading Mobs seems to be O.K. with the community.

[Simulacrum]

Back in the days people used to grab Ony / Hakkar / Nefarian Buffs before running raids (think Loatheb, glorious times except for warlocks and their soulstones).
[sarcasm]Clearly those encounters weren't designed with those powerful buffs in mind, all those guilds must have been cheating![/scarasm]

Another neat story: Blizzard Devs vs. Mogu'shan Palace Challenge Mode (at around 1h 32m)
Right after Gekkan, they evade the Mobs on the elevator.
Everyone does that, those Mobs are useless. Although everyone does it noone views it as cheating / bugging / exploiting, guess evading Mobs seems to be O.K. with the community.

Yes, and they removed those buffs because their use was unintended.

They've banned entire guilds for abusing the evade mechanic during boss kills, too. They probably don't care about it for challenge modes because they don't provide any rewards, and essentially nobody cares about them, so it's not worth the trouble to spend time dealing with it when they can deal with more important stuff instead.

[Johnmatrix]

Not quite, the issues about this is that they reset the instance and reducing the time.
That falls under the category of consumables, you dont have to reset the run. (just like pots, invis pots, foods, flasks etc)

Had they stacked that buff and kited troughout the dungeon without resetting and still beating it by 2 minutes, it would have been whole different ballgame.
But they didnt...

It would not have been possible. Every single time on the top of the charts have been done by resetting with the stacks, that's a well-known trick for that instance. The resetting part was not new and does not count for the 2 minute top time because it was done by everyone before them. What mattered was the kiting of the adds to the very end which is indeed quite an achievement and possibly never done before by anyone in that instance because it's simply very hard.

Most of you are talking about something you don't fully understand.

[Savedwow]

It would not have been possible. Every single time on the top of the charts have been done by resetting with the stacks, that's a well-known trick for that instance. The resetting part was not new and does not count for the 2 minute top time because it was done by everyone before them. What mattered was the kiting of the adds to the very end which is indeed quite an achievement and possibly never done before by anyone in that instance because it's simply very hard.

Most of you are talking about something you don't fully understand.

The strategy for kiting the adds wasn't even theirs to begin with! They got the strategy from a different group. And every top time resetting the instance to keep stacks? Yeah, no.

[Deja Thoris]

The strategy for kiting the adds wasn't even theirs to begin with! They got the strategy from a different group. And every top time resetting the instance to keep stacks? Yeah, no.

No shit it wasn't there idea. Your point has zero relevance. They executed the strat though and thats what matters.

[Nerthfu]

It would not have been possible. Every single time on the top of the charts have been done by resetting with the stacks, that's a well-known trick for that instance. The resetting part was not new and does not count for the 2 minute top time because it was done by everyone before them. What mattered was the kiting of the adds to the very end which is indeed quite an achievement and possibly never done before by anyone in that instance because it's simply very hard.

Most of you are talking about something you don't fully understand.

I think you're talking about something you don't fully understand, what they did is commit to a hard strategy that every top CMs group already knew. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. They also executed it poorly (no offense meant there, their time is still really good but there's much more room for improvement) and the reset wasn't done by everysingle group in the top 15 that isn't theirs. I don't wanna go in the argument of cheating vs not cheating. I don't really care if they reset or not. But to say everyone does it is a simple lie.

That group deserves their time which reflects the work they put in it.
Was it a new original strategy ? no.
Was it ingenious ? yes... 3 months ago.
Was it well executed? not really, but still better than others that tried hence their time.
Is it beatable without what everyone consider cheating ? YES, BY AT LEAST A MINUTE.

[Deja Thoris]

You keep telling yourself that. It's clearly cheating. You can call it anything you like, creative use of game mechanics, whatever you like but it's clearly not intended or you'd just have the buff when you walked into the instance. Not stacking it up, reseting and starting again.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 02:00 PM ----------



This guys knows what he's talking about. The rest defending this cheating are clearly deluded.

Actually he doesn't know at all. Exploit definitions always include "gaining an unfair advantage". Since this is well known and completely reproducable there is no unfair advantage. All thats left is a judgement call from Blizzard on is it allowable "creative use" or not.

[Mersynd]

Is it beatable without what everyone consider cheating ? YES, BY AT LEAST A MINUTE.

A pretty accurate assumption considering you haven't done it and neither has anyone else.

[Nerthfu]

A pretty accurate assumption considering you haven't done it and neither has anyone else.

I think I do have a track record that proves I'm not bullshitting. And it's not like maeby's group didn't already acknowledge that their time is beatable without the reset.

[Deleted]

If you consider that cheating, you are simply removing yourself from the competition. A year from now, the CM's top times will be the best executed strategies compiling every single trick to each dungeon, and that will be the beauty of it. Resetting it it's part of that dungeon, just like several people cliking the orbs on shado-pan, dk mc on scarlet, or using the scholo buff by picking it in the normal version and then skiping the proffesor on the CM. If it works, use it, other people will to improve your time. All these things obsolete the gold requirement, but not the competition.

[Kagdar]

Considering this video show a run of 12:21 in Nizuao temple and they don't reset the adds.
The OP's video have it cleared in 10:17 and they claim "2min faster than the previous fastest time" while resetting adds.

So yea "everybody use the add reset in Nizuao now so it's not cheating" not so much a good claim apparently.

[RayuEU]

Considering this video show a run of 12:21 in Nizuao temple and they don't reset the adds.
The OP's video have it cleared in 10:17 and they claim "2min faster than the previous fastest time" while resetting adds.

So yea "everybody use the add reset in Nizuao now so it's not cheating" not so much a good claim apparently.

Just to be correct - our tactic involved more than just resetting the adds. I hope people that don't agree with the first 2 minutes of the video can still appreciate the last 10. Our reason for uploading was not to produce a flame war, but to share our enthousiasm for the feature and get a healthy discussion on the scene's aspects started.

[Washuwa]

cleaver use of game mechanics thats it.. this is not cheating... in the other hand is not intended to be this way so yeah is a "world record" still, the time is there for a world record but not the the skill

[Salanis]

This is an impressive run, Makes me want to see what crazy schemes I can come up with

[Deleted]

As far as im concerned, when it comes to speed running and thus also challenge modes every trick in the book is allowed as long as it is not a pure exploit. Resetting instance to keep buffs, using invis pots, dying on purpose, all are fine. Hell if we were able to use heroism, reset and get the exhaustion cleared but not the buff we would do that too.

That said im not a fan of scarlet monastary, scholomance and niuzao where you can do rediculous times by clever use of game mechanics. Asuming you have a DK in your group Scholo and SM can both be done about 1-2 mins faster than with a regular group. I honestly dont think DKs should be allowed to use those abilities in Challenge Modes but on the other hand if they removed that now they would also have to reset the times.

[Washuwa]

this is the same as when ensidia used those spellstealed buffs from the plants in sholazar bazin to defeat hodir in 2 minutes, and 1 week later blizzard fixed that...

[Kagdar]

Just to be correct - our tactic involved more than just resetting the adds. I hope people that don't agree with the first 2 minutes of the video can still appreciate the last 10. Our reason for uploading was not to produce a flame war, but to share our enthousiasm for the feature and get a healthy discussion on the scene's aspects started.

True, but considering you pre-stack the add buffs to 24 stacks and then reset the timer. Those 24 stacks means you can use the existing adds after the reset for a longer time.

Groups that don't reset the timer have to kill some adds and kite the rest, on your strategy youu just kite all the adds up to the end because you already have some stacks. Thus giving you an advantage. "we did it differently because we kite adds up to the end" is still flawed because of that.

Yes you did kite the adds up to the end, because you could. But if you want to kite the adds to the end, you can't kill any in the beginning. If you don't reset the timer. Kill 24 adds to get the same buff as you and the kite them to the end. You will never make it because there is not enough adds to last that long.

[Senen]

True, but considering you pre-stack the add buffs to 24 stacks and then reset the timer. Those 24 stacks means you can use the existing adds after the reset for a longer time.

Groups that don't reset the timer have to kill some adds and kite the rest, on your strategy youu just kite all the adds up to the end because you already have some stacks. Thus giving you an advantage. "we did it differently because we kite adds up to the end" is still flawed because of that.

Yes you did kite the adds up to the end, because you could. But if you want to kite the adds to the end, you can't kill any in the beginning. If you don't reset the timer. Kill 24 adds to get the same buff as you and the kite them to the end. You will never make it because there is not enough adds to last that long.

Still, the team of a previous world record had release a video too, where they used the "get stacks, reset" exploit too. There wasn't a flame war on their topic, though. Don't know why there weren't complaint for their run but there are for this one.
Anyway, the reset strat is widely known and used but afaik they are the only one who managed to keep up the stacks efficiently.

Regardless of whether you like that exploit or not, the following of the video is indeed clever and well done.

What I find particularly funny is that many claim that "the stack-reset exploit shouldn't be use, blahblahblah" but I've never seen any discussion on the two other exploits that everybody uses in this dungeons. The fact that, under certains circumstances you can pull the first boss immediatly or not and the fact that you can pull the trash behind the closed door after the second boss. (I know there's another bug with the drum of the second boss if everyone hit it at the same time, but this one is discussed once in a while, not the two others.)

[RayuEU]

Still, the team of a previous world record had release a video too, where they used the "get stacks, reset" exploit too. There wasn't a flame war on their topic, though. Don't know why there weren't complaint for their run but there are for this one.
Anyway, the reset strat is widely known and used but afaik they are the only one who managed to keep up the stacks efficiently.

Regardless of whether you like that exploit or not, the following of the video is indeed clever and well done.

What I find particularly funny is that many claim that "the stack-reset exploit shouldn't be use, blahblahblah" but I've never seen any discussion on the two other exploits that everybody uses in this dungeons. The fact that, under certains circumstances you can pull the first boss immediatly or not and the fact that you can pull the trash behind the closed door after the second boss. (I know there's another bug with the drum of the second boss if everyone hit it at the same time, but this one is discussed once in a while, not the two others.)

The main reason this is being discussed and other tricks are not is because we posted it on MMO-Champion. I think the purify glitch in SPM would have been frowned upon just as much had it been posted here, because it saves at least a minute too.