How could a Demon Hunter class work in WoW?

[Totle]

I appreciate the participation. However, if we're trying to avoid clashing with existing classes, having a bow using class with Hunter in its name isn't a good starting point.

Then there's the other issue of Bow DHs not existing in the WoW universe at all. It's a bit bigger than a simple race/class combo. You're putting together two concepts that have nothing to do with each other, and comes from 2 different games that also have nothing to do with each other.

It just doesn't make sense.

I had mentioned this in one of the other topics, but theoretically, there is a way around this. It would require a retcon -

Illidan was the first demon hunter (wowpedia states) so it stands to reason that all other demon hunters are basing their abilities and preferences off of him.

HOWEVER - not all demon hunters get to have their eyes granted to them by Sargeras himself, and not all demon hunters get to eat the Skull of Guldan. As a result, these new demon hunters are obviously not as powerful as Illidan and thus need to wear armor and also fight with ranged weapons on occasion.

[Teriz]

The only way to make a class that won't clash is to go back to the WC RTS games and pick something else like they did with DKs and Pandaren. If that is the case, then here is the Demon Hunter from Warcraft 3.

Well, I think I've found a way to make a somewhat original class that stays true to WC3's Demon Hunter. I'll post the write up in a few days. Still working on it.

When reading through the WC3 version of a Demon Hunter, It reads more like a Warlock and less like a Hunter. So, from the WC line, the only DH that makes sense is the one we already have.

Not really. Again, we can say that Demon Hunters are to Warlocks what Paladins are to Priests. I think this can be done. We just need to think outside the box a little.

[Deleted]

If there has to be a Demon Hunter class, it can be done. The only thing which can be quite controversial is that the Demon Hunting warlock glyph has to be removed, or at least renamed. Dark Apotheosis would make a great Demon Hunter ability, but it isn't really needed. Remember that Illidan could only transform in a half-demon after he consumed the Skull of Guldan.

First of all, they can wear mail armour (which is the only armour type which doesn't cover 3 classes). There are many hunter and shaman sets which do not look like mail at all, the same can be done for Demon Hunter sets. Furthermore, Demon Hunters can wear mail armour. Here is some concept art of a human Demon Hunter wearing heavy armour:

http://www.wowpedia.org/images/f/f0/Demonhunterhum.jpg

Demon Hunters don't have to look like Illidan and wield Warglaives, that's like saying Death Knights have to look like Arthas and cannot wield anything but a Runeblade. Here's another Demon Hunter concept:

http://www.wowpedia.org/images/7/7f/Demonhunterfem.jpg

As for the talents, if it were up to me there would be a Tank spec, a Melee DPS spec and a Ranged DPS spec.

The Melee DPS spec could be replaced with a caster spec, particularly because the last two classes were both exclusively melee (unless you count the Mistweaver as a ranged spec) and it wouldn't hurt to a fit another ranged spec in the game. The problem is that I don't know what niche a Demon Hunter caster spec would fill, both schools of magic a Demon Hunter would use (Fire and Shadow) are well-covered by other classes.

The Ranged Demon Hunter would be athe brooding bowman type, a combination of a Dark Ranger and a D3 Demon Hunter. Hunters would finally have some competition over their Bows and Crossbows. I don't see guns as a weapon a Demon Hunter would use so if it was up to me I would leave them out, but it's not set into stone. This spec would be highly magic-based, it would be quite similar to a Ranged Enhancement Shaman.

The Melee DPS Demon Hunter would be a more traditional Demon Hunter, the Illidan-type Demon Hunter, wielding two weapons and rushing foes head-on. I wouldn't base this spec too much on magic, it would make more sense as a spec based on fast physical attacks with a few fiery abilities.

The Tank Demon Hunter would be able to choose between dual wielding and a two-hander. (Similar to how Frost Death Knights work) The Demon Hunter Tank would be a manipulator of the Void, giving a shadowy feel to this spec in contrast to the Melee DPS spec. The Void is different than Shadow Priest and Warlock shadow spells and it could turn out quite interesting. Void Walk, Black Hole and Dark Nova are a few spell names I can think of right now, I don't have a specific thing in mind the spells would do but I think they sound quite interesting.

Weapons available to the Demon Hunter class: 2H Swords, 2H Axes, Polearms, 1H Swords, 1H Axes, Bows, Crossbows, Staves.

As for the races, I think that all races could be Demon Hunters. I would leave Worgen and Goblin out.

This is only an outline of the Demon Hunter class, it requires much work if it were to be shaped into a real class. Also, not saying that this is a good class concept and that it would definitely work out. I found certain other Demon Hunter class concepts by other users to be quite bad, boring or both. Some people may find my idea to be exactly that.

[Teriz]

snip.

I think you have a good concept there Samakuro. I really enjoyed reading it.

Seems that most DH ideas here involve a mixture of D3 and WC3 versions of the Demon Hunter. Pretty interesting when you consider the poll results. According to the poll, most people seem to want the WC3 version of the Demon Hunter. After that, comes a mixture of WC3 and D3 Demon Hunters.

Very interesting.

[Eroginous]

When reading through the WC3 version of a Demon Hunter, It reads more like a Warlock and less like a Hunter. So, from the WC line, the only DH that makes sense is the one we already have.

The OP basically wants Illidan Stormrage to be a playable character in Wow, and he isn't going to stop babysitting this thread until the rest of us agrees with him on how good of an idea that is.

@ OP: Just for arguments sake, wouldn't you want them to achieve some sort of overall balance and polished game design between the other 11 classes which already exist in the game, before they shove another one down our throats? So many specs are in dire need of help, it's not even funny. Talent trees need some work. Class abilities need to be refined. I would much rather they put all those development resources into fixing what's already broken, then come out with a new class.

[Teriz]

The OP basically wants Illidan Stormrage to be a playable character in Wow, and he isn't going to stop babysitting this thread until the rest of us agrees with him on how good of an idea that is.

This isn't true. The poll shows that the majority of people prefer the WC3 version of Demon Hunter, and that's what they'd want to play as, not as a hybrid of WC3 and D3. I do respect people who feel differently. I was just trying to get some ideas on how we could pull that off. My intention is definitely not to "babysit this thread" so to speak.

@ OP: Just for arguments sake, wouldn't you want them to achieve some sort of overall balance and polished game design between the other 11 classes which already exist in the game, before they shove another one down our throats? So many specs are in dire need of help, it's not even funny. Talent trees need some work. Class abilities need to be refined. I would much rather they put all those development resources into fixing what's already broken, then come out with a new class.

I think WoW is already polished. It's imperfect, but its by far the most balanced MMO out there. Sure people want balance, but they also want new stuff added to t he game as well to keep things fresh. That's why Blizzard pretty much resets game balance every expansion.

Now keep in mind, I DO NOT think that Demon Hunters will ever be implemented into the game. I even created an extensive thread about it. However, I don't think it would be impossible to replicate the playstyle of the Demon Hunter into WoW while not stepping on other classes' toes.

[Yig]

The 8 years worth of retired WOW players who would come back to play as a demon hunter are interested in demon hunters because of Warcraft lore, and I think the whole point in fighting for their existence is to realize the demon hunter of Warcraft which Blizz has teased us with again and again.

The armored demon hunter human from the RPG art is basically a warlock, the blood elf basically a play on the wardancer wood elf from Warhammer, which the Demon Hunter is inspired in part by IMO, while not necessarily looking like Illidan, they would need the eye blinding ritual and the demonic infusement imo, and their armor sets would be based on samurai hakama pants, light overlapping plate armor, war skirts and kilts, with wide areas of exposed skin to show off their ritual tattoos. I can imagine all kinds of armor tiers that would feel very demon huntery, like this demon hunter armor concept art from Burning Crusade. I don't think that violates the demon hunter of WC3, but embellishes what an individual demon hunter hero would be, which is what we're playing if we get the chance.



In my minds eye, seeing a demon hunter in action, I mostly see a fleet footed acrobatic fighter darting around the battle field with their signature "ninja run" with rapid steps and burning fel fire or shadow fire left flickering in their footsteps, leaning forward with their blades held stiff and out to their sides like massive wings as you saw them running in WC3, when they then leap into battle in wild flamboyant movements, every strike a part of a series of chained whirling maneuvers with their circular blades spinning around them in complicated arcs, one strike flowing into the next in a perfect series of swings which keeps the momentum of the massive curved blades constantly preserved as one spinning blade strike flows around their body into the next, a whirlwind of twin blades at all times keeping any enemy away from them in the place of armor as the demon hunter darts in and out of range, the long strips of silk from their eye binding trailing behind them and flapping around with the kind of fake real time physics like you see on the Pandaren belt. I think that's something that could give them a lot of visual flavor and character, and when you stop moving at rest, the strips of cloth hanging from the knot fall down about your shoulders around your neck, like Ryu from Streetfighter 2. Perhaps maintaining an upkeep of sorts between their chaos energy/fel fire building up they have to release tactically as an AOE DPS aura, or as a concentrated blast, or by charging their blades with the fire.

I'd like to see their whirling strikes have a combo like system of procs you can chain in novel ways like that, and if you get through a full combo at the end of it you can choose to use the chaos/fel energy in multiple tactical choices like I said above.

Those are the kinds of things I'd like to see with demon hunters, as well as character customization letting you have various degrees of mutation from the fel energy, like spines or spike barbs on your elbows or shoulders or down your skin, smoldering cinders and smoke forever streaming from the blackened scars of your eye sockets, claws on hands and feet.

I just don't see the point in a Van Helsing like D3 demon hunter, which is basically a gun slinger with crossbows. I'd rather something like be used for another hero class, like the epic marksmen from the Warcraft RPG who uses rifles and dual wields pistols and muskets with a trench coat and a wide brim hat.

---------- Post added 2013-02-21 at 06:36 AM ----------

I'm not sure what a Runemaster could work with as a 4th spec, maybe a monk or shaman, but I'd love to see them in action too in WOW. Basically a brawler who only uses massively powerful and rapid machine gun punches with brass knuckles, with glowing runs all over their bodies. I'd just love to see them punching everything in rapid powerful combos like a piston. A tauren wearing nothing but a long kilt with glowing runs all over his horns and body just punching an enemy into a pulp, that would be nice.

[Teriz]

The 8 years worth of retired WOW players who would come back to play as a demon hunter are interested in demon hunters because of Warcraft lore, and I think the whole point in fighting for their existence is to realize the demon hunter of Warcraft which Blizz has teased us with again and again.

The armored demon hunter human from the RPG art is basically a warlock, the blood elf basically a play on the wardancer wood elf from Warhammer, which the Demon Hunter is inspired in part by IMO, while not necessarily looking like Illidan, they would need the eye blinding ritual and the demonic infusement imo, and their armor sets would be based on samurai hakama pants, light overlapping plate armor, war skirts and kilts, with wide areas of exposed skin to show off their ritual tattoos. I can imagine all kinds of armor tiers that would feel very demon huntery, like this demon hunter armor concept art from Burning Crusade. I don't think that violates the demon hunter of WC3, but embellishes what an individual demon hunter hero would be, which is what we're playing if we get the chance.



In my minds eye, seeing a demon hunter in action, I mostly see a fleet footed acrobatic fighter darting around the battle field with their signature "ninja run" with rapid steps and burning fel fire or shadow fire left flickering in their footsteps, leaning forward with their blades held stiff and out to their sides like massive wings as you saw them running in WC3, when they then leap into battle in wild flamboyant movements, every strike a part of a series of chained whirling maneuvers with their circular blades spinning around them in complicated arcs, one strike flowing into the next in a perfect series of swings which keeps the momentum of the massive curved blades constantly preserved as one spinning blade strike flows around their body into the next, a whirlwind of twin blades at all times keeping any enemy away from them in the place of armor as the demon hunter darts in and out of range, the long strips of silk from their eye binding trailing behind them and flapping around with the kind of fake real time physics like you see on the Pandaren belt. I think that's something that could give them a lot of visual flavor and character, and when you stop moving at rest, the strips of cloth hanging from the knot fall down about your shoulders around your neck, like Ryu from Streetfighter 2. Perhaps maintaining an upkeep of sorts between their chaos energy/fel fire building up they have to release tactically as an AOE DPS aura, or as a concentrated blast, or by charging their blades with the fire.

I'd like to see their whirling strikes have a combo like system of procs you can chain in novel ways like that, and if you get through a full combo at the end of it you can choose to use the chaos/fel energy in multiple tactical choices like I said above.

Those are the kinds of things I'd like to see with demon hunters, as well as character customization letting you have various degrees of mutation from the fel energy, like spines or spike barbs on your elbows or shoulders or down your skin, smoldering cinders and smoke forever streaming from the blackened scars of your eye sockets, claws on hands and feet.

I just don't see the point in a Van Helsing like D3 demon hunter, which is basically a gun slinger with crossbows. I'd rather something like be used for another hero class, like the epic marksmen from the Warcraft RPG who uses rifles and dual wields pistols and muskets with a trench coat and a wide brim hat.

---------- Post added 2013-02-21 at 06:36 AM ----------

I'm not sure what a Runemaster could work with as a 4th spec, maybe a monk or shaman, but I'd love to see them in action too in WOW. Basically a brawler who only uses massively powerful and rapid machine gun punches with brass knuckles, with glowing runs all over their bodies. I'd just love to see them punching everything in rapid powerful combos like a piston. A tauren wearing nothing but a long kilt with glowing runs all over his horns and body just punching an enemy into a pulp, that would be nice.

Hopefully you take the time to comment on my upcoming Demon Hunter class thread. I would greatly appreciate the feedback.

[Breccia]

In any game with multiple classes, such as D&D or WoW, you have to ask if the class is "overspecialized". If there was, say, a fourth hunter spec that did +100% damage to demons and -10% to everything else, then "bring the player not the class" would be right the hell out the window. Now I know the classes in the poll called Demon Hunters from other games aren't built that way, but then, if their abilities are just as good against everything else, what's the "demon hunter" part of Demon Hunters? Simple: it's how they apply these tools, by going after demons. That's a choice, not a requirement.

Call me an old-fashioned roleplayer (because I am), but I feel that there's a difference between your class (such as hunter) and your job. Demon Hunter sounds like a job, that could be filled by any class. I think it would be of tremendous use in RP servers. But I don't think it needs to exist as a new class. I'd rather see some of the nifty features in the aforementioned games (such as dual-wielded hand crossbows, which is too John Woo to be anything other than TOTALLY AWESOME) put into WoW.

[Deleted]

In any game with multiple classes, such as D&D or WoW, you have to ask if the class is "overspecialized". If there was, say, a fourth hunter spec that did +100% damage to demons and -10% to everything else, then "bring the player not the class" would be right the hell out the window. Now I know the classes in the poll called Demon Hunters from other games aren't built that way, but then, if their abilities are just as good against everything else, what's the "demon hunter" part of Demon Hunters? Simple: it's how they apply these tools, by going after demons. That's a choice, not a requirement.

Call me an old-fashioned roleplayer (because I am), but I feel that there's a difference between your class (such as hunter) and your job. Demon Hunter sounds like a job, that could be filled by any class. I think it would be of tremendous use in RP servers. But I don't think it needs to exist as a new class. I'd rather see some of the nifty features in the aforementioned games (such as dual-wielded hand crossbows, which is too John Woo to be anything other than TOTALLY AWESOME) put into WoW.

I couldn't agree more; though I suspect it is because we both learned this from successive DMGs.

What do you call a Combat rogue who hunts demons? Or a dual wielding melee Hunter spec (which WoW really should have; it's an important half of what makes Rangers Rangers)? Maybe aforementioned dual wielding melee hunter spec could get a spec-specific glyph of 'favoured enemy' which allows them to pick a creature type to deal extra damage and crit chance to. Boom; demon hunters without having to build and balance an entire new class.

[Eroginous]

This isn't true. The poll shows that the majority of people prefer the WC3 version of Demon Hunter, and that's what they'd want to play as, not as a hybrid of WC3 and D3. I do respect people who feel differently. I was just trying to get some ideas on how we could pull that off. My intention is definitely not to "babysit this thread" so to speak.

The majority of people who responded to your poll, are not the same as the majority of people playing Wow. If anything, your poll shows that the majority of Wow players a) don't care enough to take it or b) don't post here and haven't seen it. It honestly doesn't matter how this could be pulled off because you are not a designer for Blizzard and this class isn't being implemented into the game. So at this point, yes, you are just babysitting this thread trying to get people to agree with you about your pet class.

I think WoW is already polished. It's imperfect, but its by far the most balanced MMO out there. Sure people want balance, but they also want new stuff added to t he game as well to keep things fresh. That's why Blizzard pretty much resets game balance every expansion.

In some aspects, yes, wow is a very polished game. But as far as class design and balance goes, it is anything BUT polished. They are more worried about changing things every expansion/patch than reaching a 'polished stage' and it shows. In fact, at this point I wish they would have scrapped the monk class completely and instead spent that development time doing a much better job on the talent trees and the class abilities.

Now keep in mind, I DO NOT think that Demon Hunters will ever be implemented into the game. I even created an extensive thread about it. However, I don't think it would be impossible to replicate the playstyle of the Demon Hunter into WoW while not stepping on other classes' toes.

Then what's the point of this thread? Furthermore, why do you keep responding after every post, either telling people 'no, that's not what a Demon Hunter would be' or 'yay, you nailed WC3 DH design completely!'

[Psychotrip]

The majority of people who responded to your poll, are not the same as the majority of people playing Wow. If anything, your poll shows that the majority of Wow players a) don't care enough to take it or b) don't post here and haven't seen it. It honestly doesn't matter how this could be pulled off because you are not a designer for Blizzard and this class isn't being implemented into the game. So at this point, yes, you are just babysitting this thread trying to get people to agree with you about your pet class.



In some aspects, yes, wow is a very polished game. But as far as class design and balance goes, it is anything BUT polished. They are more worried about changing things every expansion/patch than reaching a 'polished stage' and it shows. In fact, at this point I wish they would have scrapped the monk class completely and instead spent that development time doing a much better job on the talent trees and the class abilities.



Then what's the point of this thread? Furthermore, why do you keep responding after every post, either telling people 'no, that's not what a Demon Hunter would be' or 'yay, you nailed WC3 DH design completely!'

Omg calm down. Instead of spending this much energy dissecting and poking holes in whatever the op says, why dont you either lighten up and have some fun coming up wth a theoretical class or LEAVE. All the OP is doing is guiding the thread HE made. If you disagree with his ideas then do so in a constructive manner. No one else is getting butthurt by him. I'm sick of people just being spiteful and derailing a thread when they have nothing better to do. Say something constructive or leave.

[blackblade]

Here's something i'mma pull out of my ass.

A Demon Hunter would be a strange cross between a warrior (A high mobility [defensive] melee class) and a Death Knight (A Low Mobility [defensive] magic-based melee class)

In a PVP scenario, You would be racing into melee and difficult to Kite. Still Vulnerable to CC but slippery like a druid (with similar abilty to close the Gap)

In WC3, DH's Dual-weilded war-glaives (like Illidan's Warglaives of Azzinoth.) They were Anti-caster with Mana Burn, Had the Evasion Passive (giving them a dodge chance), Self immolate (A PB-AOE Damage Aura), with a final of Metamorphasis.

Some liberties would need to be taken with the Demon Hunter "Idea" (similar to how Death Knights are now compare to how they were in WC3)

I would say A Tank Spec, An RDPS Spec, and an MDPS spec.

Would wear leather or mail. (probably Mail, because that'd fit the third mail spec)

The tank spec, lets call it "Fel Master(FM)" Focuses on the "Metamorph" aspect of Demon Hunters. Using fel magic to improve upon his/her mortal form. Dual Weilds agility weapons (Swords/Axes/Maces) Would use a similar style to warriors (start with 0 resources, using a low cd-attack as a resource generator which opens the door to more resources.) and a Demonology Esque Demonic Fury resource they would spend defensively. The challenge is to have enough "DF" around to soak major damage, but to never cap it. The thing that makes them different is that defensive cooldowns would cost DF/Second with an additional up front cost, letting you control how long your CD's last.

Lore-wise, these would be the demon hunters who sought to turn the fel corruption against itself.

The Melee DPS spec, Lets call it... "Demon Slayer(DS)" Would be a fast-moving, dual weilding, arch-typical "Warglaives" style demon hunter. They're like unsubtle rogues with fel magic. They would be slippery and hard to kite, but have to juggle between "surviving" and "killing" They would be closer to a WC3 Blade Master. They would probably feel a bit like enhancement shaman without some sort of secondary resource. would have a rounded arsenal of close and long range attacks and be a fairly versatile style like the Death Knight.

The Ranged DPS spec, lets go with "Void Hunter(VH)" Would be closer to the Dark Ranger and Warden WC3 heroes. They would wield bows/guns/crossbows instead of melee weapons and do a combination of shadow and nature damage, They would be petless (to distinguish them from hunters easily) fairly mobile and capitalize on the "ranged" attacks of the demon slayer spec above. Would generate resources with syphoning shots.


Lorewise, the sudden influx of Demon Hunters could be caused by the band of warriors lead by Turalyon for the alliance. Knowing that there will be no reinforcements, many would quickly learn to ward themselves of demonic taint, the others would master it and let it become their shield; for allies would be far and few.

Hordeside, it's a little harder to establish; Turalyon's forces would include the core "alliance" races; Humans, Dwarves, a fistful of elves and gnomes. Horde don't really have a solid equivalent. Alliance also have the Night Elves (who're the "original" demon hunters) to base their knowledge from.

I suppose if they tied in Spellbreaker and Dark Ranger type abilites through the core kit, Blood Elves and Forsaken have a legit "in" upon which trolls and orcs can quickly hop on board. That would give the new class to about 4 races on each side (Human, Night Elf, Dwarf, *cough* Gnome) Worgen could be roped into it too, but I'd say the dreanei tradition of "No Fel Magic" would have to stand. Hordeside, (Orcs, Trolls, Blood Elf, Forsaken) I don't think you could squeeze goblins into that pool.
Pandaren would likely be "out" too.


Mechanically; It'd be tough to get them feeling distinct, especially after most of the "Token" DH abilites got handed off to Rogue(evasion) and Warlock (Immolate, Metamorphasis) And keep that bad-ass warglaive weilding feel to it. DK's got to borrow from a lot of abilites unused by other undead heroes (Lich, Crypt Lord, and to a lesser extent, Dreadlord(where they only really got the vampirism aspect).) coupled with the fact that only one of the WC3 DK's abilities was being used by another class (Death Coil) the other three abilites (Dark Pact, Unholy Aura, and animate dead) were untouched. The only thing that needed to be in place was a reason for them to leave the Lich King, and still be available to all factions.


Honestly, I'd be surprised if we got another class so soon. There's already plenty of mouths to feed, and they're already struggling keeping everyone at about the same power level while still feeling distinct and "needed" in raids.

They'll likely give us a couple more races, new character models/animations and some new ways to customize our characters.

[Eroginous]

Omg calm down. Instead of spending this much energy dissecting and poking holes in whatever the op says, why dont you either lighten up and have some fun coming up wth a theoretical class or LEAVE. All the OP is doing is guiding the thread HE made. If you disagree with his ideas then do so in a constructive manner. No one else is getting butthurt by him. I'm sick of people just being spiteful and derailing a thread when they have nothing better to do. Say something constructive or leave.

I am calm. The OP doesn't want to have fun theory crafting around a hypothetical class, and he's proven as much. Like I already said, he's babysitting a thread he made about his pet class and his responses are generic 'hey that's not what a DH would be' or 'hey you hit WC3 DH on the head' type responses. Because of this, it's clear that this thread serves no real purpose, isn't making any progress, and isn't going anywhere except to pat the OPs back about his ideas.

[Yig]

I never said that Blizzard stated they would never do a Hero class again. I said that they proved why it's a bad idea. Having a class that is overpowered for the sake of pve/lore has a direct negative impact on pvp as we saw with season 5 and 6. It wasn't until mid expansion nerfs that Dks were reigned in and actually somewhat reasonable in pvp.

Then Cata changes pushed away the idea that any DK spec could tank, functionally altering each spec's mechanics to be more streamlined, and now Dks are an average class, just like any other. Like I said before, DKs are only a 'hero class' now by name. And even that's slipping, since GC stated there was no longer any real reason to limit the number of DKs a player can have on a realm per account. If the development of the game pushes an existing hero class down in power level to a point where they are no longer a hero class, then it's safe to say that future development of 'hero classes' would be pointless or a direct violation of design philosophy.


Yes, this thread seems more like a 'validate my desire for my pet WC3 class to be implemented into Wow' kind of thread. If Blizzard had announced the next expansion, said they were adding a new class, and this thread was a speculation thread on what it would be, then I would see a point to all this. But as it stands, it's almost pointless to even discuss it.

You seem to be making a straw man version of what you consider a hero class to be and then you're knocking it down, but I think your issue is with what you think "hero class" means. They don't need to be overpowered or feel overpowered anymore than starting out as an established hero with a story line that makes you feel like you're more than just some wizard's apprentice in rags.

You pretty much seem to be saying to me that you never said hero classes will never happen, but that they should not happen because they would be pointless. I very much beg to differ, I think you need to reexamine what "hero class" means and lose the baggage you associate with it.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 07:59 AM ----------

A blue did say recently that they don't see them adding the demon hunter, not enough design space, overlaps too much with current classes couldn't make it feel unique etc etc.

No, they didn't. Ghostcrawler used very specific words, and he asked a question which could easily have been a rhetorical statement, or it could easily have been the typical vague Aes Sedai answer you would expect from Blizzard. Dissect his exact words, and nothing was ruled out at all.

He was asked if Demon Hunters had room as a class essentially, his reply was "Do demon hunters have room as a class?" Emphasis on the question mark there.

To say a demon hunter cannot exist in WOW because a few of their iconic moves were given to other classes just as a way to give demon hunter fans an easter egg they would enjoy is sort of like saying another melee class can never exist in WOW beyond what we have. What would justify any new melee class at all if all they're going to be doing is hitting stuff with weapons?

Those iconic WC3 demon hunter abilities can be built upon in my opinion, three talents trees and a brand new rotation and a brand new resource mechanic game is what a new melee class needs, and a demon hunter has the visual flare and strong Warcraft flavor to justify embellishing them in my opinion. There is a player demon hunter on the Vanilla box itself, it's not as if Blizzard hasn't considered it and hasn't been toying with us by dropping hints the last few years all over the place, whether to just tickle us or to actually foreshadow true developments it's hard to say.

I'll be the first to say there are good reasons a demon hunter may never happen, but I feel there's ample room for fleshing them out as a class if Blizzard thinks the theme of the expansion is appropriate and the class feels fun and unique in action.

Just as a priest can exist side by side with a paladin, both channelers of the light, I say a warlock can stand next to a demon hunter and not feel redundant. Just as a fury warrior can stand next to a rogue and not feel redundant, I think a demon hunter could do the same. Seeing a Warcraft 3 demon hunter in action is really not possible in WOW right now, the closest to it would be in my opinion a pinch of Warlock and Frost DK with a little Subtlety rogue and fury warrior for maneuverability.

Ultimately if we do not get a demon hunter class in WOW, it's going to be a damn crying shame if the reason we don't get them is because demon hunter abilities were cannibalized just to give to other classes as a way to give demon hunter fans a little treat. That's kind of tragic to me. Originally I can see them giving Warlocks metamorphosis just as a cool little idea they had at the time that seemed to work and felt fun and class appropriate, even after they'd given rogues warglaives and the Cursed Vision, and now that cool little gift may ultimately deprive us of the class ever becoming a reality.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 08:04 AM ----------

If there has to be a Demon Hunter class, it can be done. The only thing which can be quite controversial is that the Demon Hunting warlock glyph has to be removed, or at least renamed. Dark Apotheosis would make a great Demon Hunter ability, but it isn't really needed. Remember that Illidan could only transform in a half-demon after he consumed the Skull of Guldan.

I don't see why. It was just a fun way to give demon hunter fans a present in the first place, it wasn't meant to be the identity of a warlock or make the backbone of their class kit. You'd think those demon hunter fans would prefer the actual demon hunter to just being given a bit of Blizzard's left overs as a present.

And before we had Deathknights, we had death coil in the game, we had deathknight armor and weapons for paladins and warriors to wear and who could pretend to be DKs using deathbringer's plate or dreadneught plate with Baron Rivendare's steed and skull covered runeblades all over Naxxrammas. These things didn't stop real DKs from coming to the game.

I do agree it's a factor against demon hunters though, it's just a damn shame that it is seeing as it was nothing more than an homage to demon hunters in the first place.

[Eroginous]

You seem to be making a straw man version of what you consider a hero class to be and then you're knocking it down, but I think your issue is with what you think "hero class" means. They don't need to be overpowered or feel overpowered anymore than starting out as an established hero with a story line that makes you feel like you're more than just some wizard's apprentice in rags.

You pretty much seem to be saying to me that you never said hero classes will never happen, but that they should not happen because they would be pointless. I very much beg to differ, I think you need to reexamine what "hero class" means and lose the baggage you associate with it.

No, I'm not making a strawman at all. Before DKs, there was no such thing as a 'hero class.' All classes obeyed certain race restrictions, started at level one, weren't limited to one per server, and were designed around a specific game play philosophy. Then Blizzard announces a new class. Not only does it have no race restrictions, but it's limited to one per server, starts at level 55 with a unique set of gear that's BETTER than t2 raid drops, and then designs it as a jack-of-all-trades melee class that catapults to the top of arena ladders in the very first season it's on live servers.

Everything about DKs set it apart from normal classes, from it's personal storyline to it's relative power level in the game. So when someone calls it a 'hero class,' it's not just a reference to a special character from the WC3 story. Blizzard realized something about DKs that made them start nerfing DKs into the ground. They've also commented on the idea of removing the restrictions of 1 DK per server.

If they wouldn't have to redesign the class/starting zone from the ground up, I'd even be willing to bet they'd have it start at level 1 like other classes. It sounds to me as if you're worried about them potentially never adding another class from WC3 to the game. That's not what I said they wouldn't do. Instead, I suggested that if they DO add another class, it's not going to follow the same design philosophy as DKs. It wouldn't be a 'hero class' in regard to being overpowered, restricted to one per server, starting at a higher level, ect.

Now, I don't mind them adding classes if and when the other 11 are balanced.

[Teriz]

Now, I don't mind them adding classes if and when the other 11 are balanced.

Then you never want new classes. The other 11 classes will never be balanced.

Ever.

[Talen]

This isn't true. The poll shows that the majority of people prefer the WC3 version of Demon Hunter, and that's what they'd want to play as, not as a hybrid of WC3 and D3.

Problem being...that niche is filled. Further, a big problem is that the WC3 DH has been broken up and given to other classes already and that is what is DH is for WOW. I could see the Warlock being given a makeover to allow a DH like spec...but a dedicated DH spec, along the lines of Illidan? You could argue for a D3 style DH...but it wouldn't be a WOW DH.

I do respect people who feel differently. I was just trying to get some ideas on how we could pull that off. My intention is definitely not to "babysit this thread" so to speak.

Cloth wearing DW melee specialist that makes use of shadow magic.

Doable. You'd need a resource mechanic VERY different from that of a rogue. A combo based system might work well. You'd need to look at gear. Do they use INT Cloth? Do you develop specialist cloth just for them? Do you make them wear leather? Do you go the whole hog and give them Mail? What about the Deconstruct idea floating around? You end up looking very much like a DH but get the druid syndrome....essentially looking the same every patch.

Metamorphosis? Signature ability but warlocks have it. You cannot remove it. So you'd have to either not give it to them or give them a different form. Maybe class quests - at level 20 you get a mission to go out and absorb a demon. The demon you choose dictates your form. Or maybe just give the DH the Warlock form as baseline.

The problem, even at this stage, is that the more you do to make it work, the more you either step on other classes or the more you take it away from a Warcraft style DH. You end up with a WC3 style DH that isn't needed or a new class that isn't a DH.

The best I can see is either a reworking of the Warlock to let them fill the role via that Glyph, or simply integrate a D3 style DH and brush over the differences.

EJL

[Teriz]

Problem being...that niche is filled. Further, a big problem is that the WC3 DH has been broken up and given to other classes already and that is what is DH is for WOW. I could see the Warlock being given a makeover to allow a DH like spec...but a dedicated DH spec, along the lines of Illidan? You could argue for a D3 style DH...but it wouldn't be a WOW DH.

Well I structured my DH class as more of a battle-mage type of class. That niche wasn't filled, and so far the feedback has been very positive.

Cloth wearing DW melee specialist that makes use of shadow magic.

Doable. You'd need a resource mechanic VERY different from that of a rogue. A combo based system might work well. You'd need to look at gear. Do they use INT Cloth? Do you develop specialist cloth just for them? Do you make them wear leather? Do you go the whole hog and give them Mail? What about the Deconstruct idea floating around? You end up looking very much like a DH but get the druid syndrome....essentially looking the same every patch.

Metamorphosis? Signature ability but warlocks have it. You cannot remove it. So you'd have to either not give it to them or give them a different form. Maybe class quests - at level 20 you get a mission to go out and absorb a demon. The demon you choose dictates your form. Or maybe just give the DH the Warlock form as baseline.

The problem, even at this stage, is that the more you do to make it work, the more you either step on other classes or the more you take it away from a Warcraft style DH. You end up with a WC3 style DH that isn't needed or a new class that isn't a DH.

The best I can see is either a reworking of the Warlock to let them fill the role via that Glyph, or simply integrate a D3 style DH and brush over the differences.

EJL

I've handled most of those issues in my DH class thread.

[Talen]

I've handled most of those issues in my DH class thread.

Largely, IMO, by ignoring them.

That Metamorphosis issue is a big one for example.

It WAS a key, signature DH ability.
It IS a key, signature Warlock ability.

The armor issue? Deconstruct is a good idea. But it still leaves the class sharing one of the druids flaws. That they don't change their visual appearance, they don't get to change their look or show off their gear. Nor does it readily hook into Gems or Enchants or transmog.

Resource and combat mechanics can be developed from scratch so that it can end up very different in feel. But the problem is you still end up with class that either fills a niche already filled (the issue GC brought up) or isn't a WC3 Demon Hunter.

And you said it yourself:

Well I structured my DH class as more of a battle-mage type of class.

Why not simply call it a BattleMage?

EJL