How could a Demon Hunter class work in WoW?

[Yig]

I think custom combat animations with a novel resource mechanic game and their strong visual identity is enough of a distinction. Ultimately, every class is only going to be melee, ranged, tanking, healing, or hybridizing those roles. The trick is in making it feel fun and new when you do those things. New rotations, new priority systems, novel flavor mechanics and animations, all of these things could distinguish a demon hunter from the other melee classes. It's really a matter of Blizzard choosing to embellish and flesh out a class we know almost nothing about.

It would be a damn shame to see them forever left as what could have been just because they were cannibalized on the whims of well meaning developers to give other classes some demon hunter homage mechanics, but it's possible that's just what they did. I think deathknights and monks both offer precedents to support demon hunters as well as to discourage them. I think people who insist they know one way or another have an axe to grind.

---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 10:46 PM ----------

The reason you can't do what Blizzard did with DKs is because Night Elf heroes don't align well with the Demon Hunter theme. Most Night Elf abilities went to Druids. A far cry from the Demonic and Melee abilities in the Demon Hunter theme.

Night Elf heroes don't align well with a demon hunter theme?
As if any race's hero we play aligns well with the deathknight theme? A demonhunter would be an antihero, just like a deathknight. They are the epitome of a night elf antihero.

[Golden Yak]

Nice ideas Golden. Spellbreaker, Banish, and Mana Burn are already there, so an anti-magic theme within Demon Hunters already exists. Control Magic would be a nice addition to the spell list, as would Devour Mana. Devour Mana could be a passive ability that stacks as you attack, and you can release a powerful attack with Orb of Annihilation?

Devour Mana was a mass-dispel/AoE vs. summon ability but you could tie it to a passive, maybe mana burnt with a Feedback attack fuels Orb of Annihilation stacks. The link to Orb of Annihilation is a good one - you build up the stacks in various ways and then drop a huge blast AoE in the middle of a group.

I had the idea that any mana used around the Demon Hunter when he had Devour Mana active could be used to fuel Orb of Annihilation - that makes Devour Mana more useful when you're in a group or when facing a large group of caster enemies. Might not be as effective when you're going solo, but I kinda like the idea of making 'Support'-type abilities more effective when you're in a group - you're either being supported or supporting your allies.

Based on your posts and others I've seen in this thread, I feel that the first 2 specs should be called Shadowflame and Spell Breaker. Shadowflame specializes in Shadow and Fire magic, which are used to enhance the Demon Hunter's melee abilities. It would be the more flashy spec. Spell Breaker would be more based around magic manipulation and control of other units' abilities.

Yeah, those sound good. Definitely like the concept of Spell Breaker as a spec - an anti-magic role.

I'm guessing the final spec should be a tanking spec that involves more of the physical attributes of the Demon Hunter. More based around its evasion and melee abilities. I really love your evasion idea from the Oculus. That's pretty damn brilliant.

Thanks. I'm on the fence as to whether it should be an evasion meter or evasion charges like in the dungeon. A single stack of charges might be harder to keep track of visually, or they could be orbs on a bar like monk 'chi' counters. Depends on how many there would be.

I see tank abilities would focus around maintaining evasion by generating enough charges to keep it going, and then when you run down use cooldowns to absorb, redirect, metamorph, etc. to survive and regenerate evasion. Wouldn't give your healers much to do though (if you're doing it right, that is).

I think custom combat animations with a novel resource mechanic game and their strong visual identity is enough of a distinction. Ultimately, every class is only going to be melee, ranged, tanking, healing, or hybridizing those roles. The trick is in making it feel fun and new when you do those things..

This is kinda why I wanna see more hybrid-specs, like my melee/ranged dps concept. Or others like a heal/dps spec where a resource is generated that can fuel either type of ability.

For something like a melee/ranged monk, picture a monk that has a 'stance' meter in addition to Chi and Energy, which drains slowly as they use melee abilities. When its empty they're locked out of melee abilities and need to get some distance and switch to range abilities. Their melee stance only refills while in ranged mode, and vice versa. Cooldowns can be used to switch rapidly and replenish resources when needed.

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Had a bunch more DH ability ideas:

Curse of Flame - Surrounds the target in burning flames, causing them to deal periodic flame damage to nearby targets. The target also periodically spawns flames underfoot that deal fire damage to any hostile target standing in them.

Path of Flame - Causes the Demon Hunter to leave behind a path of flame as they walk for a short time. Anything that stands in the flames takes fire damage.

Fires of Azzinoth - The Demon Hunter tears open a fiery rift in the ground, causing a burst of fire damage to anyone nearby. The rift periodically spawns tiny Fel Elementals that move to attack nearby enemies. Fel Elementals deal fire damage in melee combat. Elementals will not stray too far from their rift.
Glyph - Instead of spawning multiple Fel Elementals over time, it spawns all of them at once in a group.
Glyph - Instead of spawning multiple small elementals, a single Greater Fel Elemental is spawned.

Shadow Orb - The Demon Hunter conjures an orb of shadow magic and sends it to a target location. The orb floats to the location and then bombards random targets with shadow bolts until it expires.
Glyph - Shadowflame Orb - The orb bombards enemies with Shadowflame bolts.
Glyph - Hellfire Orb - The orb bombarsd enemies with flame bolts, and when it expires it ignites a patch of hellfire on the ground that delas periodic fire damage. Expires sooner.

Shadow Demon - Conjure a shadow demon and send it to attack a target. If the shadow demon reaches the target, it explodes and deals AoE shadow damage. You can dismiss a shadow demon prematurely by using the ability while a shadow demon is active. If a shadow demon despawns without dealing damage to the target, the next shadow demon you summon gains increased movement speed. This effect stacks multiple times.
Glyph - Your shadow demon movement speed bonus is not removed when a shadow demon successfully damages a target. However, the number of stacks you can have is reduced.

Demonic Diffusion - Splits the Demon Hunter off from his demonic side, allowing it to manifest as a separate enemy. I'm not sure how best to have this one operate - I'm leaning towards you retaining control of the Demon Hunter while the demon operates independently as a guardian. Some fun glyphs could be had:
Glyph - Allows you to control your demon side as a pet.
Glyph - Allows you to take direct control of your demon side while your original self operates independently.

(This might make a good tank cooldown by having the demon take the hits while your Demon Hunter regens evasion safely out of harms way - maybe have a channeled ability that restores evasion as long as you aren't being attacked).

Demonic Vengeance - When your health is reduced to zero, your body goes into a coma and your demonic side manifests and attacks. You can direct them to attack with a limited ability set for a short time. Your body takes 50% reduced healing in this state, but if its health is restored to full before Demonic Vengeance expires you will return to normal. Otherwise you die. ((Something like this anyway, maybe you just attack as a demon for a while and can't be restored.))

Shadow Carapace - When you suffer damage in demon form, small elementals called Shadow Fragments are spawned that attack the enemy with ranged shadow bolts. Shadow Fragments can be sacrificed to absorb damage. All active fragments are affected, with a greater number sacrifice giving more protection.
Glyph - Sacrificing shadow fragments grants health rather than damage absorption.
Glyph - Increases the number of shadow fragments that spawn, but reduces the damage absorption they provide.

Abilities are fun.

[Teriz]

Night Elf heroes don't align well with a demon hunter theme?
As if any race's hero we play aligns well with the deathknight theme? A demonhunter would be an antihero, just like a deathknight. They are the epitome of a night elf antihero.

I'm talking about WC3 here. In WC3 The undead heroes were of similar theme because there were all subjects of the scourge. Thus it was easy to pull DK abilities from other units and heroes in that faction.

Demon Hunter and Night Elves are different. Again, most of the NE heroes and Unit abilities went to Druids and Hunters. The only unit that has any demonic leaning is the Demon Hunter, so you that's the only place you can pull abilities from with the NE faction of that game.

Which is why again, I used WoW's Demon Hunters to pull more abilities to help move this discussion along. The posters using two specs from WC3 and then running to the Diablo 3 class for the third spec was getting tiresome (and annoying).

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 05:54 AM ----------

snip

Holy $#@% man, you're kicking ass with those DH abilities....

Well done.

[roflwaffle]

Well that's a lot like Monk tanking. Monks are agility leather tanks that use Guard to offset physical damage.

Could you explain how Demon Hunter tanking would be different?

---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 06:59 PM ----------



Is there any class in WoW that has a spec that uses a weapon that the other two specs can't use? In other words, if one DH spec can use crossbows or guns, why couldn't the other specs? Just doesn't make sense.

isn't really relevant now but, at one point shamans had to spec into using two handers, and they have specs that can duel wield whille others can't so it wouldn't be to far off for them to give one spec access to a certain weapon type.

[Golden Yak]

Well done.

We'll get this class figured out yet.

[Haven]

No. Never. Fuck, ENOUGH of that demon hunter crap already! Yeah, Illidan was damn stylish with dual warglaives, blindfolded eyes, bare chest and tattoos, and then also wings, but let's face it - it is ridiculous. Warglaives, as weapons, are ridiculous. Being a melee and wearing no armor at all is ridiculous. His blindfold was ridiculous. Having small wings that cannot truly let you fly is ridiculous. A shitload of bare-chested night elves and blood elves dual wielding warglaives in every city and every zone will be the apotheosis of ridiculousness.

[Justignoreme]

Warglaives, as weapons, are ridiculous. Being a melee and wearing no armor at all is ridiculous. His blindfold was ridiculous.

So is shooting "shadowbolts" out of your fingers, having a crappy little shield and some metal stop a dragon the size of a skyscraper from smashing you into toothpaste and trying to engage in any combat with shoulder armour the sizee of medicine balls and covered in spikes, spines or flames. Not really seeing how these things you stated are any more ridiculous.

[Haven]

So is shooting "shadowbolts" out of your fingers, having a crappy little shield and some metal stop a dragon the size of a skyscraper from smashing you into toothpaste and trying to engage in any combat with shoulder armour the sizee of medicine balls and covered in spikes, spines or flames. Not really seeing how these things you stated are any more ridiculous.

Really... how about a new class that will shoot goblins out of his shield, slam enemies by summoning mammoths above them, dual-wield bows, cast rainbow spells and wear plate armor, but only on head and knees. What? Makes just as much sense as a demon hunter for me. The game has to keep at least a small semblence of realism, or else the basics turn into an abstraction and everything descends into madness.

[Deleted]

Could have 3 specs

Tank spec melee (For all those Warlock tank lovers out there)
Dps spec melee (Like a WC3 Demon hunter - same as illidan)
dps spec ranged (Like diablo)

[Valeron]

isn't a demon hunter basically a combat rogue but without the stealth?

[Eroginous]

I think we should avoid the Diablo 3 class if we're pushing for the WC3 version.

I think we should strip down the concept of a demon hunter into what makes sense, instead of trying to copy what was done in a completely different game. A demon hunter is someone who hunts demons. Since demons are magical, one would assume that a demon hunter would use weapons and magic to hunt demons, most likely demonic magic weapons. Now, like I said before, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to add another completely brand new class to an already imbalanced game.

I'm surprised they added Monks in MoP, and I would be further surprised if they added any others to the game in future expansions. Many of the abilities you have mentioned are already present with other classes, or have been removed from classes because they present balance issues in pvp. At best, I think Demon Hunter would just become a new spec for existing hunters.

Hunters are already struggling with their identity as a class. Might as well give them something new and cool to play with.

[Mechanix2]

If anything we need a Pure Support class. Like for example, a Bard.

Just my 2 cents. >.<

[Shadowspire]

Just a quick question about this since it is always mentioned.
Where and when the hell did blizzard say they wouldn't put demon hunters in wow? And I mean a real real piece of blizzard quoting that says ever and not just" at the moment" if anyone can give me a link that says it then i will switch my opinions on this..but for now it just feels like everyone who doesn't want them tries to say that.

[Teriz]

No. Never. Fuck, ENOUGH of that demon hunter crap already! Yeah, Illidan was damn stylish with dual warglaives, blindfolded eyes, bare chest and tattoos, and then also wings, but let's face it - it is ridiculous. Warglaives, as weapons, are ridiculous.

What if we also allowed the player to wield swords, maces, and axes along with Warglaives they receive during personal class questlines?

Being a melee and wearing no armor at all is ridiculous.

I actually have an idea on how that could work. Stay tuned.

His blindfold was ridiculous.

Completely optional.

Having small wings that cannot truly let you fly is ridiculous.

They wouldn't have small wings except when in metamorphosis.

A shitload of bare-chested night elves and blood elves dual wielding warglaives in every city and every zone will be the apotheosis of ridiculousness.

Now I can't argue with that. THAT would be ridiculous.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 11:33 AM ----------

Just a quick question about this since it is always mentioned.
Where and when the hell did blizzard say they wouldn't put demon hunters in wow? And I mean a real real piece of blizzard quoting that says ever and not just" at the moment" if anyone can give me a link that says it then i will switch my opinions on this..but for now it just feels like everyone who doesn't want them tries to say that.

Kind of the point of this thread really. GC pretty much threw down the gauntlet, so I'm trying to see how we can construct a Demon Hunter class that doesn't resemble the classes he mentioned and classes he didn't mention.

Its the ultimate challenge in terms of class design, and I do love a challenge.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 11:39 AM ----------

isn't really relevant now but, at one point shamans had to spec into using two handers, and they have specs that can duel wield whille others can't so it wouldn't be to far off for them to give one spec access to a certain weapon type.

Well yeah, but again, that limitation is class wide. There are Shaman specs that can't dual-wield, but its not the same thing.

Classes have to have some cohesion, and I just don't think the Diablo 3 version is a good idea for this class design. You're going to have to design a way to make a magic-melee class and create a magic or physical ranged class that uses bows/guns/traps/etc. However even beyond those issues, I think having a class called "Demon Hunter" that uses bows and arrows causes a MAJOR overlap with the existing Hunter class.

Heck, look at my Ranger class idea. I took great pains to make that class as different from Hunters as possible, and most readers still said it was too close to Hunters.

[-Superman-]

I'd like to see them use ranged weaponry, giving other hunters competition, then I would like to see them in Mail armor to help soak up the competition for that gear. Should make for a nice balance gear and class wise. Also, I would give them a non-ranged spec allowing them to get down and dirty as melee. Then if they are short an RDPS, flip that spec and re-equip two 1H cross-bows

[Teriz]

I'd like to see them use ranged weaponry, giving other hunters competition, then I would like to see them in Mail armor to help soak up the competition for that gear. Should make for a nice balance gear and class wise. Also, I would give them a non-ranged spec allowing them to get down and dirty as melee. Then if they are short an RDPS, flip that spec and re-equip two 1H cross-bows

DH Ranged DPS with bows is Diablo lore, not Warcraft lore. A DH using Bows/Xbows doesn't exist in Warcraft.

[Solzan Nemesis]

Oh look, another Teriz thread where the only valid arguments are the ones he makes and the ones that he agrees with.

Should be fun.

You know he is often a lot more right then you all give him credit for.

[Unholyground]

Honestly OP, I think they will take Demon Hunters and Dark Rangers and blend them together. I can almost 100% guarantee they will be able to have a ranged weapon using spec. It won't be your typical DH because they have to think of 3 specs one of which will undoubtedly be ranged.

[Teriz]

Honestly OP, I think they will take Demon Hunters and Dark Rangers and blend them together. I can almost 100% guarantee they will be able to have a ranged weapon using spec. It won't be your typical DH because they have to think of 3 specs one of which will undoubtedly be ranged.

I agree that you will need a ranged spec, but that ranged spec doesn't need to be ranged physical.

Also Dark Rangers have nothing to do with Demon Hunters. I think we need to focus on Warcraft DH and Warcraft DH only.

[Unholyground]

I agree that you will need a ranged spec, but that ranged spec doesn't need to be ranged physical.

Also Dark Rangers have nothing to do with Demon Hunters. I think we need to focus on Warcraft DH and Warcraft DH only.

They have been thinking about another Ranged weapon class for a good while. This would allow better weapon itemization for hunters as well which is a big issue.