Leveling Rogue in PvP, getting destroyed.

[Deleted]

As everyone else already have said. PvP at that level is very unbalanced. I suggest that you do quests up to level 60 or 70, then you can try to pvp again and see how it goes. Also you don't need BG's to pvp, thanks to CRZ you can attack and kill any ally/horde that you want.

[Deleted]

I've been leveling my rogue predominately in PvP. I've currently got a little over 3k honor (haven't bought anything) at level 58. At low level you will be fairly weak, as you lack Sprint, Vanish, Blind, Garrote, Premeditation, Backstab, etc. Combat is the best PvP spec until you get to Backstab and Premeditation, but it's nothing impressive until you get all of those.

When you do, however, you'll be kicking ass. At least I am.

[Bytch]

Eh..You either play Sub or go pro and play Mut ( Assis). Playing Assis, is much more fun. With Shadow Focus of course as your first talent. You can get 3 Muts off and then slam on a Rupture if they;re not dead within those 3 Muts. Playing Assis, you're poisons are you killers. get 3 combo points, hit S & D, refresh within 2 seconds of dropping with Envenom. Easy as pie to keep S&D up at all times.

[zoomgpally]

Are you trolling? I sure hope you arent serious, because if you are, you, sir, are not the sharpest knife inthe drawer. "Ambush the target, causing 325% weapon damage plus 623 to the target (470.275% plus (623 * 1.447) if a dagger is equipped). Must be stealthed and behind the target. Awards 2 combo point.

Slower weapons(swords, axes, fists and maces) do more damage per hit than faster weapons(daggers)...
Using my 87 rogue with 14421 attack power and Porter's Tooth-Marked Mace(ilvl 442 mace at 2.6 speed)/Lhakaz's Missing Ribspreader(ilvl 442 dagger at 1.8 speed) as example
Ambush at 87: 325% weapon damage plus 586 to the target (470.275% plus (586 * 1.447) if a dagger is equipped)
Mace: (2003.6 dps + 1030.1 dps from attack power) * 2.6 speed = 7887,62 average damage
Mace ambush: 7887,62 average weapon damage * 3.25 + 586 = 26220,765 average ambush damage
Dagger: (2003.6 dps + 1030.1 dps from attack power) * 1.8 speed = 5460,66 average damage
Dagger ambush: 5460,66 average weapon damage * 4.70275 + (586 * 1.447) = 26528,060815 average ambush damage

26220,765 vs 26528,060815

Conclusion: Dont call people trolls or "not the sharpest knife in the drawer" just because you cant do basic math

[Stir]

Slower weapons(swords, axes, fists and maces) do more damage per hit than faster weapons(daggers)...
Using my 87 rogue with 14421 attack power and Porter's Tooth-Marked Mace(ilvl 442 mace at 2.6 speed)/Lhakaz's Missing Ribspreader(ilvl 442 dagger at 1.8 speed) as example
Ambush at 87: 325% weapon damage plus 586 to the target (470.275% plus (586 * 1.447) if a dagger is equipped)
Mace: (2003.6 dps + 1030.1 dps from attack power) * 2.6 speed = 7887,62 average damage
Mace ambush: 7887,62 average weapon damage * 3.25 + 586 = 26220,765 average ambush damage
Dagger: (2003.6 dps + 1030.1 dps from attack power) * 1.8 speed = 5460,66 average damage
Dagger ambush: 5460,66 average weapon damage * 4.70275 + (586 * 1.447) = 26528,060815 average ambush damage

26220,765 vs 26528,060815

Conclusion: Dont call people trolls or "not the sharpest knife in the drawer" just because you cant do basic math

I want to go into this specifically:
"Mace: (2003.6 dps + 1030.1 dps from attack power) * 2.6 speed = 7887,62 average damage"
You see, the average weapon damage you describe is a false number. What you describe is the average damage your weapon deals per second, while the average damage is the average damage dealt per strike.
Basically, if you do not calculate attack power, your mace would have an average damage of (3646+6773)/2 = 5209
The dagger's average weapon damage: (2885+4328)/2 = 3606.5

Now; Ambush with the mace would be, on average: (5209*3.25)+586 = 17515.25 average ambush damage.
With the dagger (same DPS), the average ambush damage would be: (3606.5*4.70275)+(586*1.447) = (16960.467875 + 847.924) 17808.41075.
Now; this is without attack power calculated in. However, attack power calculations amount to the exact same number (speed is completely irrelevant) in both equations, as the attack is an instant strike, and not a white hit. This means that your attack power (granting you an additional 1030.1 dps on white hits (assuming they do, in fact, HIT your target, and your target remains within striking reach all the time over the measured period of time; this means that the actual DPS granted from attack power is lower (and fluctuates drastically), but the bonus to actual hits remains a constant) doesn't have the same speed-related element when it concerns strikes. Your favouring of maces over daggers is purely due to the attack power-to-speed ratio, but that is simply not the case here.

Bottom line: Daggers win on ambush damage. Not by much, but they do. Your conclusion lies in the false premise that weapon damage is the exact same thing as white hit damage per second.

Just a side note: Slower weapons do deal more damage on things like Sinister Strike. The only reason Ambush doesn't deal more damage with the slower weapon is because the faster weapon gets two different advantages in the calculations, gaining both an increased modifier to the base weapon damage portion as well as a modified bonus number.

[forwards1ca]

Thanks for sorting this out for me. I really didnt want to reply to the guy who tried so hard with his math but failed.

[Glockoma]

That's what happens when u reroll fotm. Go ahead infract me
It was worth saying it

Infracted: trolling

[Wigginns]

Back on topic:

One of the main reasons is that you just don't have enough of your core abilities yet. Many other classes get some of their really fun really cool abilities very early on. Hunters are able to disengage at like 15, druids and shamans get their travel forms at like 14 or 16 now. As a rogue you are slow. And I mean hella slow. Even when you get sprint you don't get it until everyone else already has mounts and will outpace you anyway. You don't get a stun at level 6 like paladins do. Druids have got like 3 forms by the time they are lvl 15. They have about 10 abilities in each form. On my rogue at 16 I have all of about 6 abilities and one of those is slice and dice which obviously is good for damage but boring as hell.

Honestly I think this is one of the capital reasons that rogues have such a low population. It's just not fun until you get around 50 or 60.

---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 07:48 PM ----------

Back on topic:

One of the main reasons is that you just don't have enough of your core abilities yet. Many other classes get some of their really fun really cool abilities very early on. Hunters are able to disengage at like 15, druids and shamans get their travel forms at like 14 or 16 now. As a rogue you are slow. And I mean hella slow. Even when you get sprint you don't get it until everyone else already has mounts and will outpace you anyway. You don't get a stun at level 6 like paladins do. Druids have got like 3 forms by the time they are lvl 15. They have about 10 abilities in each form. On my rogue at 16 I have all of about 6 abilities and one of those is slice and dice which obviously is good for damage but boring as hell.

Honestly I think this is one of the capital reasons that rogues have such a low population. It's just not fun until you get around 50 or 60.

[Sesshou]

Thanks for sorting this out for me. I really didnt want to reply to the guy who tried so hard with his math but failed.

Well, he showed a stronger grasp of game mechanics than you did in your extremely ignorant post on page 1 where you completely ignored weapon speeds and copy pasted a tooltip you clearly didn't understand, so I don't know why you are coming back to mock his math being not entirely correct.

[shadowboy]

Slower weapons(swords, axes, fists and maces) do more damage per hit than faster weapons(daggers)...
Using my 87 rogue with 14421 attack power and Porter's Tooth-Marked Mace(ilvl 442 mace at 2.6 speed)/Lhakaz's Missing Ribspreader(ilvl 442 dagger at 1.8 speed) as example
Ambush at 87: 325% weapon damage plus 586 to the target (470.275% plus (586 * 1.447) if a dagger is equipped)
Mace: (2003.6 dps + 1030.1 dps from attack power) * 2.6 speed = 7887,62 average damage
Mace ambush: 7887,62 average weapon damage * 3.25 + 586 = 26220,765 average ambush damage
Dagger: (2003.6 dps + 1030.1 dps from attack power) * 1.8 speed = 5460,66 average damage
Dagger ambush: 5460,66 average weapon damage * 4.70275 + (586 * 1.447) = 26528,060815 average ambush damage

26220,765 vs 26528,060815

Conclusion: Dont call people trolls or "not the sharpest knife in the drawer" just because you cant do basic math

Ambush is a normalized attack. The attack power damage bonus is not the same between a dagger and a mace.
(2003.6 dps + 1030.1 dps from AP) * 2.6 speed is not right. What you're doing here is treating ambush as an unnormalized attack.

the correct formula is (2003.6 dps * 2.6 speed) + 1030.1 dps from AP * 2.4 normalized attack power speed. (normalization speed for daggers is 1.7). Daggers are indeed very slightly favored but only because the slow weapon's increased normalization coefficient is slightly less than the weapon's base damage speed increase (it's speed is 44.4% slower but the normalization constant is only 41.2% more)

The actual ambush damage is 3.25*(2003.7 dps * 2.6 + 2.4* 14421AP / 14) + 586 = 25,551.8 for the mace
and 4.70275*(2003.7 dps * 1.8 + 1.7 * 14421 / 14) + 586 * 1.447 = 26044.2 damage

Yes, ambush favors dagger slightly but the reason has nothing to do with base weapon damage. It's because the slow weapon's attack power coefficient is 92.3% of its speed but the dagger's AP normalization coefficient is 94.4% of its speed. The difference is in small part due to the difference in the relative strength of the attack power bonus but most of it is just that the dagger has more base damage. If you removed the 1.447 multiplier from the base damage of 586 they'd be even closer. Basically all blizzard does is use the baseline normalization formula and multiplies the entire thing by 1.447 to get the dagger amount, therefore the base damage goes up.

They really should just change normalization to 1.8 for daggers and 2.6 for nondaggers since the speeds are largely standardized anyway.

[Brianjosel]

Thanks for sorting this out for me. I really didnt want to reply to the guy who tried so hard with his math but failed.

Dude. Look at the miniscule difference in damage between a mace Ambush and a dagger Ambush. You simply didn't understand what the tooltip actually states, and you are backpedalling, using someone else's extreme fixation on minor detail to make it sound like you knew what the hell you were talking about in the first place.

Nice try.

[Kael]

Short version regarding ambush: in spite of the large percentile difference on the tooltip, ambush only favors daggers very slightly. Unless you've got more relevant math on the topic, there's nothing else to discuss in this arena and the highly personalized arguments can just fade away.

Please also note that calling someone a troll is technically against the forums' rules. If the entire content of your post is to call someone a troll, you will receive an infraction. Just poke that "report post" button instead of "reply".

[Hatred87]

Play it like old school sub.

Hemo/Evis spam is deadly at lower levels with heirlooms. Drop ambush completely unless people are low on HP. Premeditation first. Start using cheap shot to open if you have it, preferably with the glyph. Eviscerate at 5 combo points.

I leveled a rogue through the 20s and 30s recently, you aren't as op as a shadow priest but you can still rape if you know what you are doing.

Also take Shadow Focus for free cheap shots.

Abuse sprint and line of sight to regain stealth. You need the -75% armor debuff as much as possible.

[Eda]

Hey mate,

I'm actually levelling a Rogue with a mate through PvP and would disagree that their underpowered, considering we have absolutely owned all the way unto where we are now (We're lvl 32).

Providing you go Sub and are using daggers (Sub = Daggers), you should be fine. Our rotation goes along the lines of:
- Sap (Wait for energy to replenish)
- Premeditation - Not sure if you have that yet, but when you get it, always use it!
- Ambush (or cheap shot)
- Eviscerate if a clothie/squishy anything. If tanky, use Slice n Dice and follow through with a Eviscerate. I would recommend popping evasion if their tanky, shit can get nasty!

Remember you have kick and gouge, both are incredibly useful.

Not sure if this would help, but that's just the system we use and manage pretty well with it.

Good luck!

[EqualWin]

subtely with maces you just cna't backstab but who cares, just l2p

[Ragedaug]

Combat is the least bursty spec of the 3, which is why you are having the problems you have. I had the same issue and looked at what spec the rogues were who were 1-shotting me and found they were all subtlety. That said, I loved Combat for leveling dungeons over the other 2 specs. When I leveled my Rogue (cata), subtlety was the best burst, I could global most players well into the 40's brackets and could 2-shot most players well into the 60 brackets. Rogue PVP broke for me at level 80+ where you can no longer global other players and then have to learn how to play Rogue from scratch.

[Nudle]

I just played a rogue on PTR, came out 26-0 in temple of kotmongu, second top damage as assa.
Then I played Sub and found it a bit more difficult but still, bursty when needed...

Note that everyone has the same gear in PVP, and i was just destroying any runing target only with shuriken toss + deadly throw.
If rogues go out this way, we`ll be back to Cata GodMode!

OT: leveling a rogue only in PVP depends alot on your faction as well, I have played alliance for a while, and lost every BG even though I was top on kills.

[Alphamage]

I leveled a second Rogue just through bgs just for the fun of it. With full Heirlooms, Sub spec and open with Ambush+backstab you 1-2 shot almost everything(in low level bgs) except a Shielded Disc/Shadow Priest maybe. The problem is that when you break out of stealth you are doomed in low lvl as you have very low regeneration, almost no defenses and you are almost hopeless till you get a window to go stealth again.

[forwards1ca]

I just played a rogue on PTR, came out 26-0 in temple of kotmongu, second top damage as assa.
Then I played Sub and found it a bit more difficult but still, bursty when needed...

Note that everyone has the same gear in PVP, and i was just destroying any runing target only with shuriken toss + deadly throw.
If rogues go out this way, we`ll be back to Cata GodMode!

OT: leveling a rogue only in PVP depends alot on your faction as well, I have played alliance for a while, and lost every BG even though I was top on kills.

This is exactly whats wrong with pvp today...blizzard breaks rogues so that they can outdps a range class at ranged damage, yet dont do anythign to fix it. Rogues have been broken on the ptr for weeks and they still have done absolutely nothing to fix them.

[Deleted]

Rogue leveling in bgs is boring