[Mage] 5.2 PTR Discussion (based on Feb 19 notes)

[Shangalar]

As I said in the other thread, please continue the discussions we were having here. The current Mage notes are as follows:

- Invocation now removes Evocation's cooldown, and reduces its channeling time and duration by 50%. A completed Evocation now grants 15% increased damage for 1 minute after an Evocation is completed, instead of 25% increased damage for 40 seconds. Passive mana regeneration is reduced by 50% only while Invoker's Energy is active.

- Glyph of Evocation now causes the Invocation talent to restore 10% (was 20%) health after completing an Evocation.

- Greater invisibility now has a 90 second cooldown (was 2.5 minutes).

- Frostbolt cast by Mirror Images now deals 50% more damage.

- Glyph of Fire Blast has been replaced with Glyph of Inferno Blast. Glyph of Inferno Blast causes damage-over-time effects spread by Inferno Blast to spread to 1 additional target.

- Blazing Speed is now a level 15 talent, replacing Scorch.

- Flameglow, a new talent is available at level 30 and replaces Blazing Speed. The passive ability encases the Mage in fiery energy, absorbing damage from each attack made against the Mage equal to 20% of their spellpower, up to a maximum of 30% of the attack.

- Ice Floes now has a 45 second cooldown (was 1 minute) and its duration has been increased to 15 seconds (was 10 seconds).

- Ring of Frost cast instantly through Presence of Mind now has a 2 second arming period before the Freeze effect is activated against targets in the area of effect. The 2 second arming period can be reduced by Haste.

- Temporal Ripples from Temporal Shield can no longer be dispelled.

- Deep Freeze now stuns the target for 5 seconds (was 4 seconds).

- Glyph of Deep Freeze now removes it from global cooldown but also reduces its duration by 1 second.

- Mage PvP 2-piece bonus now requires Counterspell to successfully interrupt a spell before applying the 4 second cooldown reduction to Counterspell.
Arcane

- For Arcane Mages, Evocation now restores 40% (was 60%) of total mana over 6 seconds, and consumes all Arcane Charges. For each Arcane Charge consumed, the total amount of mana regenerated is increased by 10%, up to a maximum of 80% over 6 seconds. Evocation remains the same for Fire and Frost.
- Arcane Blast's damage has been reduced by 22.2% and mana cost has been increased to 1.66667% of base mana (was 1.5%).
- Arcane Missile's damage has been reduced by 22.2%.
- Arcane Barrage's damage has been reduced by 13.6%.
- Arcane Charges now stacks up to 4 times (was 6), increases damage by 50% (was 25%), and increases mana cost by 150% (was 75%).

Fire
- Scorch is no longer a talent and is now available to all Fire Mages.

Frost
- Fingers of Frost now has a 15% (was 12%) chance to activate from Frostbolt, Frostfire Bolt and Frozen Orb, and a 5% (was 4%) chance to activate from Blizzard.
- Glyph of Ice Lance now causes Ice Lance to deal 50% damage to 1 additional target, up from 40%.
- Frostbolt now deals 52% more damage, but its debuff no longer increases subsequent Frostbolt damage.
- Water Elemental
- Freeze no longer does damage and only provides Fingers of Frost on a successful freeze.

---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 02:26 AM ----------

Adding a list of hot issues that were discussed a lot in the other thread:

- The use of Flameglow
- Invocation heal nerfs and changes
- Arcane damage nerfs
- Water Elemental Freeze change
- Blazing Speed changes
- Scorch changes

---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 02:27 AM ----------

Finally, please keep the discussion civil and on track (that is, based on 5.2).

[Deleted]

Based on the official patch notes, the latest Arcane nerfs are the only Arcane nerfs, not cumulative to last week's salvo.

Considering how they buffed literally every other class except mages, they now need to revert ALL arcane nerfs to bring it into balance.

[Jaylol]

Considering how they buffed literally every other class except mages, they now need to revert ALL arcane nerfs to bring it into balance.

Wrong. On the PTR arcane was doing a considerable amount of damage more than the next closest spec. These nerfs should put it about in line with most everything else.

[Deleted]

Wrong. On the PTR arcane was doing a considerable amount of damage more than the next closest spec. These nerfs should put it about in line with most everything else.

No they don't, according to zomg's tests Arcane is 30% lower than the other 2 specs. And since all other classes are getting buffed, those other 2 specs won't be anywhere near the top either.

[Deleted]

on the PTR, the last state was acrane doing at least 40% more dmg than all other specs/classes.

and with this, arcane is back in the line.

[Deleted]

on the PTR, the last state was acrane doing at least 40% more dmg than all other specs/classes.

and with this, arcane is back in the line.

No it isn't, get your facts straight.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ting-Come-Help!

Fire lovers, as blatantly biased as they are, shouldn't even comment on Arcane matters.

[zomgDPS]

Based on the official patch notes, the latest Arcane nerfs are the only Arcane nerfs, not cumulative to last week's salvo.

Actually Shangabangs, it looks like the nerfs are indeed cumulative to the previous ones. At least according to the readouts in game (I'm in the PTR right now).

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 06:52 PM ----------

Wrong. On the PTR arcane was doing a considerable amount of damage more than the next closest spec. These nerfs should put it about in line with most everything else.

This was the Arcane of 2 builds ago.

Previous build, they nerfed Arcane pretty hard, brought it back in line.

With the new build, they have nerfed it further whilst simultaneously bumping up a whole lot of other specs.
We are testing the complete impact of the new nerfs as we speak, though initial testing does not look good at all.


Just got out of doiing a few raid bosses on the PTR and Shin (our IW Haste Frost Mage) was decimating me (Arcane RoP Mastery) on the meters . I usually could beat her quite handily. Did a few bosses and then the instance crashed. Will be going in again very soon. Need to wait for Nabal (firemage) to get on. Though from the looks of it, he will pretty much destroy us both.


But that is just one data point. I will be getting more very very soon.

[Deleted]

The changes are in since a few days, the datamined things are just Tooltip fixes.
And the Changelog GC posted, is just a progressiv changelog that contain all changes at the END of PTR testing.
After the PTR it will contain all changes done to Arcane.

[zomgDPS]

The changes are in since a few days, the datamined things are just Tooltip fixes.

Not for Arcane. Those changes are real changes.

E.g.. The previous build arcane charges was at +40% Damage with +120% mana with an AB coeef of 0.9. The current AB as it is on todays PTR build is +50 +150 and 0.77

I'm not making this up. I have been living inside the PTR for around 3 weeks now.
The changes today to Arcane are NOT tooltip changes. They are real nerfs.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 07:01 PM ----------

And the Changelog GC posted, is just a progressiv changelog that contain all changes at the END of PTR testing.

Umm.. no it isn't.

GC himself states these are new changes:

-These are in addition to any previous changes, unless specifically noted.

Sauce. Listed under "Tuning Adjustments"

[Shangalar]

Well then I stand corrected, sorry. But my original intent of creating a new thread still stands, that one was cluttered with randomness. Carry on.

[Deleted]

Not for Arcane. Those changes are real changes.

E.g.. The previous build arcane charges was at +40% Damage with +120% mana with an AB coeef of 0.9. The current AB as it is on todays PTR build is +50 +150 and 0.77

I'm not making this up. I have been living inside the PTR for around 3 weeks now.
The changes today to Arcane are NOT tooltip changes. They are real nerfs.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 07:01 PM ----------


Umm.. no it isn't.

GC himself states these are new changes:

-These are in addition to any previous changes, unless specifically noted.

Sauce. Listed under "Tuning Adjustments"

I think you can take your bullsh!te somewhere else. Thanks!

i dont see any changes to the DPS. its exact the same with some 1-1,5k Devation.

•Arcane Charge now grants 50% damage per charge, up from 40%. Arcane Blast mana cost increased by 150% per charge.

wasnt that 40% in the last Build? not sure they changed the % so often. But i think the Build with the consuming invocation changed the Charges to 40%.

[zomgDPS]

haha.. nice ninja edit shangy :P

But yea.. the other thread was turning into a bit of a monster. Good to start a new one.

As far as some of the other topics are concerned:

- The use of Flameglow
- Invocation heal nerfs and changes
- Arcane damage nerfs
- Water Elemental Freeze change
- Blazing Speed changes
- Scorch changes

I was going to comment on them closer to when the patch drops but I guess I can do a few just now.

I think Blazing speed works. I was hesitant of having it compete with PoM/Flows and/or having to lose PoM/Flows, but I think its working out ok esp with Blink + BS. I also like that I can get it AND scorch in my firebuild.

I had an interesting thought on the Water Elemental Freeze change, mainly to do with lining up Frost's burst. Previously, in those extremely unfortunate situations where Warp has been popped and you need to pump the burst and popped your orb, if, by some chance you get only 1 FoF proc (you need 2 + Brain freeze to get the AT macro pumping) you could 'force' the 2nd FoF proc with welly freeze.
You can't do that anymore, meaning you have to be a bit more mindful of lining up your burst. Not a big loss, but still worth mentioning since the first time it happens you kind of go "umm.. now what?". Overall though, I don't think its that big a deal and I actually like the fact that I don't have to worry about using yet another ability on CD as frost.
Addendum:
An interesting side effect of this is that the glyph of welly becomes a little less 'mandatory' now on boss fights. Having him shadow you around was important so that he could always be in range of the boss for his nova. Now, he can do his thing and his positioning isn't so much of a worry. I like the change overall.

As for flameglow. Its painfully boring. I not quite sure what its there for, but I guess a 'fire and forget' passive option works in some situations. Sure.. there are raid fights with periodic damage, and sure.. on those fights you will pick flameglow, but I seriously think something more inspired could have been put into that slot.



---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 07:12 PM ----------

wasnt that 40% in the last Build? not sure they changed the % so often. But i think the Build with the consuming invocation changed the Charges to 40%.

I'm sorry but I'm really not in the mood to bring you up to speed on ALL the Arcane changes to date.
You can either take what I'm saying as true (given that I have been following the changes far faaaar more closely than you) or you can read up on the changes as they happened (which are documented in the monster 5.2 thread of before).

Needless to say, it happened just as I mentioned. Arcane was OP in one patch, nerfed in the next, and nerfed further now. If you cannot see the base damamge value changes, I suggest you read the notes harder.

[Deleted]

16577:
Arcane
•Arcane Barrage damage is increased by 40% per Arcane Charge, down from 50%.
•Arcane Blast damage is increased by 40% per Arcane Charge, down from 50%. Base damage increased 33%. SP scaling decreased by 11%. Mana cost is increased by 120% per Arcane Charge, down from 150%.
•Arcane Charge is now also consumed by Evocation. Evocation's mana generation is increased by 25% per charge.
•Arcane Missiles base damage reduced by 30% and SP scaling reduced by 10%. Damage is increased by 40% per Arcane Charge, down from 50%.

16597:
Arcane
•Arcane Barrage base damage reduced by 33% and SP scaling reduced by 14%.
•Arcane Blast damage and SP scaling reduced by 14%.
•Arcane Charge now grants 50% damage per charge, up from 40%. Arcane Blast mana cost increased by 150% per charge.
•Arcane Missiles damage and SP scaling reduced by 14%.


so u are wrong. The charges were at 40% till 16597 hits. There is no high nerf in DPS.

[zomgDPS]

The charges were at 40% till 16597 hits. There is no high nerf in DPS.

You do realize there was a PTR build before 16597, right?

16597 was the first Arcane nerf. It even says it RIGHT THERE in the effing patch notes that you quote:

Arcane Blast damage is increased by 40% per Arcane Charge, down from 50%. Base damage increased 33%. SP scaling decreased by 11%.

On top of this, with the 16597 build, the nerfed the base damage and the coefficients further:

Arcane Blast damage and SP scaling reduced by 14%

These are BOTH changes that happened AFTER the build where Arcane was OP (the one you were referring to), which was the one with +50 +150 and no SP scaling or Base damage nerfs. Arcane was NOT OP last build. Is that so difficult to comprehend?


Am I really teaching people to read at this point?

I'm calling troll and moving on...

[Deleted]

No they don't, according to zomg's tests Arcane is 30% lower than the other 2 specs. And since all other classes are getting buffed, those other 2 specs won't be anywhere near the top either.

Hm, either you exaggerate or you didn´t understand the results or the results from zomg are wrong. But no way arcane is 30% behind frost. Before the patches today, arcane was slightly ahead frost, now its behind. Yes fire is ahead, but not 30%!!!

There will be another buff for arcane, because there will never be 2 crap mage specs (in terms of dps, in terms of playing style, they are all crap imho).

[Shangalar]

And I'm going to sleep. Please don't argue about random stuff, we're here to discuss all things mage 5.2. Good luck.

[Deleted]

16577 was before 16597.

so on 16597 they buffed the Charges and nerfed the spells.

They only thing i say is, that there is almost no difference in dps between 16557 and 16597 only 2-3%.
Its like Pete said, there are no 30% or something.

Just test it on the PTR, there is almost no lost in DPS.

[spaace]

I can't see much use for flameglow for PVE..
more of a PVP talent.. (or another talent nobody uses, like icy flows)

[zomgDPS]

16557 was before 16597, there was no build between.

I meant before 16557.
The build BEFORE 16557 was the one where Arcane was OP. 16557 (which was the build we had up until today's maintenance), Arcane was perfectly fine.

They only thing i say is, that there is almost no difference in dps between 16557 and 16597 only 2-3%.

Yea.. very convincing argument you have there.
I would like to see your math, testing, theorycraft which leads you believe the difference is going to ONLY be 2%-3%.

I can see from the vast majority of your 19 posts on these forums your excellent history of being able to look at a complex system and 'brain-math' out the consequences.

Good job bro.

/rollseyes.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 07:37 PM ----------

Hm, either you exaggerate or you didn´t understand the results or the results from zomg are wrong. But no way arcane is 30% behind frost. Before the patches today, arcane was slightly ahead frost, now its behind. Yes fire is ahead, but not 30%!!!

Actually, according to my posts in the testing thread, from last build, Arcane and Frost were pretty much neck and neck.

Today, things are a bit different.

Fire still trumps them both.

[Deleted]

What to theorycraft?

Do 100 Mio on the Targetdummy before and after the Patch today, and u will see there is not such a big nerf.
if you are able to play the Mage by your self, not only by Math.