5.2 - Combat highest DPS with Shuriken Toss?

[Lorsk]

I was playing around on the PTR with shuriken toss doing DPS tests on the target dummy just doing nothing but spamming ST nonstop with wound poison on (I don't do much PvE) and these were where the DPS leveled off after doing around 1.5 million damage with each base spec:

Subtlety: 12,197
Assassination: 15,952
Combat: 16,900

I didn't do deadly throws at 5 combo points because it was doing barely more damage than ST was and costs almost twice the energy, so I see it as likely being a utility only ability for interrupts. Most people, myself included seem to think that assassination would be most suited to a ST build, at least on paper. The passives assassination gets just seem so much better for a low energy cost spammable skill, but my little test is telling me otherwise.

Does this make sense to anyone? Or, if my results seem weird, please tell me what I'm doing wrong.

[Ryme]

There's a lot more going on in your rotation than simply spamming a cp builder. That said, there was strong evidence that it worked out only just shy of optimal for subtlety and even assassination before they nerfed things, it might come back in 5.2 if subtelty does well enough to get more people trying it out again.

[Saegno]

I was playing around on the PTR with shuriken toss doing DPS tests on the target dummy just doing nothing but spamming ST nonstop with wound poison on (I don't do much PvE) and these were where the DPS leveled off after doing around 1.5 million damage with each base spec:

Subtlety: 12,197
Assassination: 15,952
Combat: 16,900

I didn't do deadly throws at 5 combo points because it was doing barely more damage than ST was and costs almost twice the energy, so I see it as likely being a utility only ability for interrupts. Most people, myself included seem to think that assassination would be most suited to a ST build, at least on paper. The passives assassination gets just seem so much better for a low energy cost spammable skill, but my little test is telling me otherwise.

Does this make sense to anyone? Or, if my results seem weird, please tell me what I'm doing wrong.

It makes perfect sense, we are not a ranged class and not designed to be.

[Milkshake86]

I was playing around on the PTR with shuriken toss doing DPS tests on the target dummy just doing nothing but spamming ST nonstop with wound poison on (I don't do much PvE) and these were where the DPS leveled off after doing around 1.5 million damage with each base spec:

Subtlety: 12,197
Assassination: 15,952
Combat: 16,900

I didn't do deadly throws at 5 combo points because it was doing barely more damage than ST was and costs almost twice the energy, so I see it as likely being a utility only ability for interrupts. Most people, myself included seem to think that assassination would be most suited to a ST build, at least on paper. The passives assassination gets just seem so much better for a low energy cost spammable skill, but my little test is telling me otherwise.

Does this make sense to anyone? Or, if my results seem weird, please tell me what I'm doing wrong.

I dont even begin to understand how the lowest attack power spec would be on paper a better ST build. Assassination relies on high mastery and constant fast attacks proccing DP, ST even at its fastest cannot even begin to generate the poison damage to outweigh combats AP, and with sub completely doesn't work because its all about finishers.

[Deleted]

My guess for why combat gets the highest dps output result, is because of base high weapon dmg + our passive energy regen / AP. Which on paper is higher then the other specs out there.

There has been some talk about ST being a perfectly viable if not better option then Mut for Assassination. Might be a "go-to-talent"-option in patch5.2 with the boost in dmg.

[Super Kami Dende]

Could it be due simply the "Vitality" Spec Passive that gives you 25% extra attack power, meaning that with just normal white swings/throws you should be doing higher damage with equal gear regardless of spec. Meaning Assassination is closer since with wound poison their poison Mastery would add more damage and Sub would fall behind with nothing better?

Also since you throw your weapon, maybe Main Gauche can proc from it aswell?

seems the most logical reason to me.

[Ryme]

I'll say again: There is more going on in your rotation than simply spamming a cp builder - To be a bit more blunt, these numbers are useless for comparing anything except "How much dps can I do on a training dummy if I only ever want to press shuriken toss?"


It's also now worth noting that it will likely never be any good as a cp builder for assassination due to the 5.1 nerf:

Seal Fate When you critically strike with a single-target melee attack that generates combo points, you gain an additional combo point on your target.

[Lorsk]

So it sounds like, if you're caught in a situation where you're rooted in PvP and shadowstep/cloak of shadows/what have you is down, and you are spamming shuriken toss until you can catch up to whoever is kiting you, that combat really will be doing the most damage, but I guess of course there aren't too many combat rogues in PvP.

[Kezuma]

So it sounds like, if you're caught in a situation where you're rooted in PvP and shadowstep/cloak of shadows/what have you is down, and you are spamming shuriken toss until you can catch up to whoever is kiting you, that combat really will be doing the most damage, but I guess of course there aren't too many combat rogues in PvP.

more nerfs to ST if u havent read the notes u cant apply slow with ST anymore so if u end by kited u get some dmg out of ST but u wont be able to slow root your target so basicly pray for step to be offcd

[celinamuna]

Honestly this looks too low, i think when last i did it (granted with deadly) as either sub or combat i was able to stay at ~40k dps while standing at the distance (albeit i can't remember if i used deadly throw or not)

[Verain]

Err, I tested this awhile ago on live, and I absolutely found that Subt was winning this battle.

However, I'm not clear on your constraints.

1)- Why are you using wound? Is this because you would have wound up in pvp, and that's the situation you are simulating?
2)- Do you have deadly throw as part of your rotation? This adds to sub's damage more than the others.
3)- As sub, did you maintain slice and dice? This provides you with energy.

When I did this test before, it was at range, and someone had asked something like "If I was to play at ranged, what's my best setup for ranged dps?". This isn't because he thought rogues were a ranged class or anything, but it was an interesting question.

So, what's your reasoning, and your methods? Are you standing in melee, standing at 8 yards, 20 yards, what?


EDIT: And I'll agree, this does look too low. But depending on gear, I dunno. I recall having a lot more dps than this when I tried it out.

[shadowboy]

I was playing around on the PTR with shuriken toss doing DPS tests on the target dummy just doing nothing but spamming ST nonstop with wound poison on (I don't do much PvE) and these were where the DPS leveled off after doing around 1.5 million damage with each base spec:

Subtlety: 12,197
Assassination: 15,952
Combat: 16,900

I didn't do deadly throws at 5 combo points because it was doing barely more damage than ST was and costs almost twice the energy, so I see it as likely being a utility only ability for interrupts. Most people, myself included seem to think that assassination would be most suited to a ST build, at least on paper. The passives assassination gets just seem so much better for a low energy cost spammable skill, but my little test is telling me otherwise.

Does this make sense to anyone? Or, if my results seem weird, please tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Umm, deadly throw is half the energy of shurikan toss once you factor relentless strikes.

DPSing at range is not optimal for any of the specs: no envenom or venomous wounds, no bandit's guile or extra combo points via revealing strike, no sanguinary vein.

Verain: On live sub is definitely going to be better than combat, but with the 5.2 change to ST, combat will pull ahead because of ambidexterity--which is meaningless on live for ST spam, and because shurikan toss procs combat potency. Combat is absolutely GCD capped when spamming ST.

[Hayturr]

Granted I only do it on live (haven't really tested on PTR aside from a few Lei Shen attempts) but Shuriken Toss Subtlety is pulling the same numbers as running backstab for my CP builder. You have to reforge more Mutilate style into Mastery > Haste for more powerful and well more evis in general and to avoid energy cap, but hey it's a very fun playstyle. It feels like Combat 4.3 somewhat with no downtime whatsoever but add to that the FW aspect of it. I'll be trying it out for 5.2 as well once it hits live but it is definitely nice to not have to worry about the positional requirements of backstab. Should play perfectly with Cloak and Dagger where as long as you're dancing you never have to worry about positioning again.

I haven't tested numbers for Mutilate or Combat b/c I really dislike the specs but figured I'd share my experience.