An Unadressed Rogue QOL Issue.

[Viradiance]

Copy-pasting something I posted on the official forums, Rogue subforum, North America.

Wondering what everyone might think of what I propose.

A Fury Warrior can drop one of their 2-handers and go arms.

A Mage can do any spec with any weapon.

A Hunter can shoot a crossbow just effectively as Marksmanship as they can as Beasmaster.

There isn't a Warlock spec that only works with staves or daggers.

A Death Knight's 2-hander works for Frost and Unholy.

Why is it a Rogue has to have an entirely seperate set of weapons for one spec that performs the same role?

Take a stance. Double daggers for combat, or slow weapons for Sub and Assassination. Preferably the latter. The tuning can be handled (See: Titan's Grip versus Single Minded Fury passive buffs)

A followup post with some more explanation of my position.

Daggers use their own animations.. and Daggers can only be dual wielded and used well by Rogues. Combat is the odd man out not the other way around and you can still use daggers for combat pve and not many combat pvp anyway.

Daggers have no mechanical difference from Swords, Maces, Axes, etc, save a tendency to faster speeds and slightly different animations. The only reason for this distinction is flavor, and that flavor is reason we're the only class who requires four sets of weapons for one role (PVP, PVE; Combat and Dagger for each)

Dagger combat comes at a massive performance penalty and is about as valid as an Enhancement shaman wielding a dagger, or a Druid using a fist weapon and only that.

There is no excuse for trivial flavor to affect gameplay.

The rogue class as a whole would benefit if daggers were normalized a la fist weapons (all set to a 2.6 speed, tuned appropriately, and all weapons for all specs). Furthermore, they would become a viable option for Enhancement shaman, who have had fairly legitimate itemization complaints through the last expansion or so and would enable Daggers to be useful to a class that isn't Rogue.

Rogues are a class of archaic ideals. Weapon and positional requirements are a handicap with no benefit and should go the way of the old weapon specialization talents.

[Sesshou]

You don't need to tell us.... theres a thread about this on the front page already where we were discussing how dumb it is that we can't use anything but daggers for 2 specs:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...rs-again/page4

[Viradiance]

You don't need to tell us.... theres a thread about this on the front page already where we were discussing how dumb it is that we can't use anything but daggers for 2 specs:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...rs-again/page4

Well. I may be dumb >.> Just read the title and first post and assumed it was about Combat being shit.

[willtron]

Class is in need of a revamp, it'll be addressed, band aid fixes will just be temporary

[Viradiance]

Class is in need of a revamp, it'll be addressed, band aid fixes will just be temporary

That's what the community said during the MOP beta.

Like, the entire thing.

[willtron]

That's what the community said during the MOP beta.

Like, the entire thing.

and Warlocks got it, Rogues are up there to get it next.

[Viradiance]

and Warlocks got it, Rogues are up there to get it next.

That's a pretty shitty excuse, considering every other class got massive sweeping mechanical and toolkit changes as well.

For a quick comparison, here's a brief analysis of talents.

Death Knight: 6 Recycled talents (Lichborne, AMZ, Chillblains, Death Pact, Runic Empowerment, Runic Corruption). 5 Passive talents.

Druid: 4.5 Recycled Talents (Wild Charge sorta, Nature's Swiftness, Typhoon, Force of Nature, Mighty Bash). 4 Passive talents.

Hunter: 4 Recycled Talents (Crouching Tiger..., Silencing Shot, Wyvern Sting, Spirit Bond). 5 Passive talents.

Mage: 7 Recycled Talents (POM, Scorch, Ice Barrier, RoF, Cauterize, Cold Snap, Living Bomb). 1 Passive talent

Paladin: 2.5 Recycled Talents (Long Arm of the Law, Repentence, sorta Sacred Shield). 8 Passive talents.

Priest: 4 Recycled Talents (Dominate Mind, Body and Soul, Desperate Prayer, Power Infusion)

Rogue: 8 Recycled Talents (Nerve Strike is a renamed Blackjack, Cheat Death, Deadly Throw, Combat Readiness, Preparation, Shadowstep, Dirty Tricks, Paralytic Poison (mace stun)). 10 Passive talents.

Shaman: 6 Recycled Talents (Nature's Guardian, Frozen Power, Earthgrab Totem, Elemental Mastery, Ancestral Swiftness (Renamed Nature's Swiftness), Healing Tide Totem). 7 Passive talents.

Warlock: 4 Recycled Talents (Soul Leech sorta, Howl of Terror, Mortal Coil (Death Coil renamed), Shadowfury. Soul Link is substantially different from what it was in cata and doesn't count as 'recycled' in more than spirit). 2 Passive talents.

Warrior: 4 Recycled Talents (Enraged Regenration, Bladestorm, Shockwave, Vigilance). 4 Passive talents.


The lack of work that went into Rogues, by comparison, is sorta sickening. There were complaints through all of beta, never addressed. We can't just expect Blizzard to do something about it unless we press our points.

[willtron]

I know, i'm totally on your side, maybe they have bigger plans and didn't want to create a ret 2.0 situation.

But totally agreed, it needs to be pressed hard, seems to only way to get something in this game heard is through mass whining

[Improvedlol]

make feint usable when stunned or cced = rogues are perfect~

[Viradiance]

make feint usable when stunned or cced = rogues are perfect~

It's not about numbers. It's about quality of life and fun. Numbers are fine, I'd just like to see less of them coming from just right clicking a target.

But those are subjective measures.

[Flashforcash]

make feint usable when stunned or cced = rogues are perfect~

that would be way to OP for pvp, just time it like the pro people jsut before the CC lands

[Eazy]

I'd like to see "revamped" rogue. Because now we have something bad, really bad... I like your idea with weapons.

[glowpipe]

Rogue is a overlooked and broken class. Hardly any changes since vanilla. Just minor changes and downdumbing of the class. Some new abilities over the year wich is more or less the same crap we had with a new coating.

The class need a brand spanking new overhaul. A frikking huge one. Or the class can be removed by next expac

[Coldkil]

I don't want to burst OP's bubble, but i think a rework on the scale of the warlock one will not ever be done over rogues - our model and core mechanics are working so well that an extreme change would alienate more players than making us more willingly to play rogues.

To be more clear: rogues aren't broken nor underperforming (well, PvP isn't going so good but we're not even that bad). Just we had the same core mechanic from vanilla - because it actually works pretty good and still it's working.

I too want a rework of the class; just i'm more practical and i know that something on the warlock scale probably won't be optimal for our class.

More on topic: i don't mind to have daggers, since they're unique and makes rogues unique for that (fast flurry of attacks), nor i don't mind combat going with slow weapons and having two sets of weapons; it's all about optimization, you go with the best performing one - like warriors that now go SMF. Weapons have nothing to do with the problems of the class.

Let's see what the future brings to us.

[Evi1Toad]

I think bliz is really making the other classes more rogue-like, starting with hunters getting focus and now all classes have a fixxed resource pool. Many classes have gotten utility that was once rogue only, like camoflague and mage imp invisibility/druid displacer beast(they wont for much longer though). Even our combo point system got thrown on monks and pallys, and both of those store the points on the player, not target. Pallys also have anticipation built into theirs.

More active damage would be nice also, I have hated shadow blades since the beginning... a CD that increases auto attack damage. Its like no thought whatsoever went into it. I really liked the playstyle that the legendarys gave, I wish that had turned into a CD instead, though it would have probably been too much in pvp.

[Sesshou]

Were warlocks broken or underperforming for Cata? I certainly don't remember that being the case.

[Squirl]

Were warlocks broken or underperforming for Cata? I certainly don't remember that being the case.

No, they were just boring and all 3 specs played almost the same. Sound familiar?

The biggest mechanic change rogues received in MoP was the migration from active damage to passive damage. That and the lack of mobility are the two largest rogue complaints right now.

[Deleted]

starting with hunters getting focus

Focus isn't like anything at all, although you could somewhat in some way compare it with burning embers. Saying silly stuff like blizzard trying to make other classes like Rogues and then bringing up focus makes no sense and doesn't get your point across.

Were warlocks broken or underperforming for Cata?

They weren't, but they were quite difficult to manage unlike Rogues. Affliction was difficult to execute due to having to keep up Shadow's Embrace stacks on 2top of all the other things. The amount of buttons they needed were quite over the top as well. You had to put in about 140% effort for 90% damage. People didn't play them because they didn't want to play a Warlock, they didn't play Warlocks because for some people it just wasn't feasible.

I personally loved Cataclysm's Warlocks and while I like the current Warlocks as well, I do miss the Cataclysm version of Affliction. But I honestly think they deserved a revamp more than any other class.

[D3athsting]

You had to put in about 140% effort for 90% damage.

Just like subtlety now and in cata, plus u have stupid positional requirement

[Asmodejjj]

Pro tip: you're wrong about warriors. They're all SMF, which means they can't just drop a weapon and go Arms.