Orcs should be exiled to Draenor

[Wyrt]

We need those bastards as fodder...I mean soldiers against the Burning Legion.

[Justignoreme]

What makes the conflict even more stupid is that the Night Elves upped sticks and moved into Teldrassil.

So Teldrassil is the boundary of Night Elf land? Okay. Orcs have Orgrimmar and Durotar. They don't need to be anywhere else.

Since Ashenvale is not their heartland any more, is it really that big of a deal the Orcs have a lumber camp on the very fringe of the forest? Especially after they helped defend the world tree from Archimonde?

It's their homeland, it's not Orcish land. Why can't the Orcs respect that after the Night Elves sacrificed the core of their existence, effectively sentencing their entire race to death, to save the world? Night Elves already had trade agreements to give them lumber. Why don't the orcs just agree to never set foot outside of Durotar unless asked to and they get all the lumber they need?

Also I see the argument pop up a lot that Thrall failed to reign in the Warsong and continue the confict, but it takes two sides to keep a conflict going. Is Tyrande equally to blame for failing to control the Silverwing Sentinels?

Oh it's totally the fault of Sentinels from defending their homeland as that is their job. Warsong are marauders in territory that isn't theirs...

[Viscoe]

Grom saying we arent under the effects of demon blood, suddenly shows up under the effects of demon's blood seems tripey to me.

He only drank the blood because Cenarius wouldn't let up. :P

It's a biased "conversation" where once again Im going over a tired piece of argument put forth by someone who is clearly siding with the Horde and failing to see the opposing perspective in any capacity with respect to the issue. It'd be nice if people just flat out said "you know what, Orcs are better than Night Elves, so fuck them" and I wouldn't have to waste time talking, period. It'd really be nice. I don't care if people hate them, just say it and be done with it.

I... you.. what? I don't really get this. I already told you I don't side with anyone. While you can see in my sig that I'm a Horde player, it's because I love the tauren and have a severe dislike for humans (from reading the lore before I ever even picked up the game OR warcraft.) And again, you're talking like a damn victim here. Why are you acting like this? No one's trying to assert orc dominance except for the orcs in World of Warcraft. And, uh... you.

Why are you SO hung up on the night elves being "the best"? How does that make a good story?

I'm perfectly calm and relaxed, but this broken record repetition endlessly with this shit subject. I'm not ranting on and on about remove the orcs blah blah. It was a misunderstanding at first contact, both sides were justified, until Grom went and drank the blood again. That's my opinion on it and there will be nothing you can say to change that.

Again, it's a conversation, I'm not trying to change your opinion. You're acting extremely defensive and if you read your posts you can see that you have a very defensive tone. That's where I'm coming from with that. As for why we keep talking about it, it's because we keep responding to each other talking about it. :P

Im not talking any different from how Horde/Orc fans defend their faves. Oh they were starving, oh they were desperate, oh they needed it to survive blah blah. It's no different.

This is irrelevant. You're being defensive. Calm down. I don't care what other people are doing. :P

Garrosh and Garrosh's followers are the culprits and the problem. You are right, we don't know how many Orcs support him, but I don't think it's a minority...

Well, the thread WAS made to say that all the orcs deserve to live on Draenor because they're bad people. That's where I drew that from. Blame Salandrin's flamebaiting for that.

Compare and contrast. Comparatively, yes, they are supar great amazin' peeps. What do they do? Give up their Immortality to save the world, half the race is dedicated to healing damaged/corrupted parts of the world in a neutral organisation, the other half is split between defending their home and lending their muscle to co-operative missions against overarching threats to Azeroth.

Are you saying that nobody else would have done the same? The nelves did it because they had the power to do it, no one else was immortal. And even then, they were MAJORLY split. The peace summit was orchestrated by many different races, is what I'm saying. And the night elves as a whole people are just as neutral as any other race of people in WoW. There are crazy xenophobes and fathers whose daughters are sick and they just want help. I do not see them as whatever you're uplifting them to be because... they aren't, really.

Night Elves weren't supermen when they were Immortal, they just weren't written as weak damsels in distress failing every step of the way. They've been defeated plenty of times, it was just a costly victory for those whom triumphed, and didn't last long. Draenei and to a lesser extent, Forsaken are Immortal anyways, no one god modes them. God-moding can be done by anyone pretending they are a dragon or even a demon hunter. Cdev has systematically gutted the entire appeal of Night Elves to those whom play them and its implied their entire failure as a race in WoW is attributed to them becoming mortal.

Character flaws are powerful because they make a race relatable. Being a military king forever would have made it World of Night Elfcraft. Look at people like Fandral Staghelm; for years and years he plotted to take control of the Nelves and make them a military society that withdrew from the Alliance and all outsiders. Can you imagine that, if the nelves had kept their immortality and superior everything-ness, can you imagine if someone like Staghelm came into power? They'd conquer everyone. That's no fun.

And, no... I don't see how they gutted the appeal. They're very different now than they used to be, but I don't see them as damsels in distress. Who led the Hyjal Expedition into the Firelands to defeat Ragnaros? Jarod Shadowsong, that's who. Now that's a night elf I can respect.

Fanfiction doesn't mean crap. I don't play fanfiction, I play their game. They are ruining the race I loved and doing it to bolster other races in the game, races which, to me, are about as interesting as dirt and compelling to play as watching grass grow. And they mock it as well (with achievements like "I used to love them". They know how other Night Elf fans feel... they don't care. Cataclysm's lore has been a non-stop barrage of denigration and destruction of Night Elf lore all the way to its past history. And its clear from the fan backlash its not liked. It's not "character building" to shit on the story of a race like they have with night elves. No one is rolling them because they like being a weak, ineffective and stupid race of past-their-prime gits, shown up by everyone and lead by a stupid, whiny bitch. Thats all they've portrayed the race to be when they started "developing" their lore in Cataclysm. Would you roll one? Judging by your sig you wouldn't dream of it. Not even for a druid or hunter (signature Night Elf classes)

Night elves are still some of the most played races in WoW. If you need me to grab you the wowrealmpop page, I will. People play them because "Hey cool, elves!" Not because of some tragic downfall story. And I happen to love tragic downfall stories!

Edit: Blah it's like one giant flash thing so you can't link wowrealmpop, but, in both EU and US servers, Night Elves are the second most played alliance race behind humans (and I have a feeling that has to do with the PvP racial.) I believe both of them sit at around 19% of the entire Alliance population sampled.

Would I play a night elf? My first druid and hunters and rogue and warrior were all night elves. I just like tauren more. I love the druidic feeling that permeates night elf culture, but I don't play Alliance, and I get that and more from my beloved tauren. :P

FInally, again, I'm sorry to tell you this hon, but it's THEIR story. They can write it how they please. You may disagree with it, but who knows where they're taking it? I have disagreed with a whole lot of stories I've read in which my favorite character dies or something similar, but at that point, I either close the book and tell the author to go fuck themselves or keep reading to figure out how they can justify such an occurrence. Perhaps you should do the same?

[Justignoreme]

He only drank the blood because Cenarius wouldn't let up. :P

so much for lok'tar ogar

I... you.. what? I don't really get this. I already told you I don't side with anyone. While you can see in my sig that I'm a Horde player, it's because I love the tauren and have a severe dislike for humans (from reading the lore before I ever even picked up the game OR warcraft.) And again, you're talking like a damn victim here. Why are you acting like this? No one's trying to assert orc dominance except for the orcs in World of Warcraft. And, uh... you.

Why are you SO hung up on the night elves being "the best"? How does that make a good story?

The best? I just want them to not be the worst.

Orcs are the best. Forsaken are the best. Humans are the best. Night Elves are the worst. Not average, not midland, worst. Fail bottom worst. You tell me how being a notch about murlocs in the world makes for a good story when you were introduced as the Perfect Warrior, wielding nature's fury and the powers of a Goddess? Night Elves can't even set up an ambush properly or defend without humans saving the day on their home turf. This is a tired of bit I've done with other people here. I want them to be on par with the Orcs, Humans and Forsaken in this story, not dirt ground under their heels. Might as well kill the whole fucking race off as far as Im concerned.

Again, it's a conversation, I'm not trying to change your opinion. You're acting extremely defensive and if you read your posts you can see that you have a very defensive tone. That's where I'm coming from with that. As for why we keep talking about it, it's because we keep responding to each other talking about it. :P

so let's stop talking about it. I'm defensive cause I have to be. I'm the only passionate Night Elf fan on this entire fucking forum. One slanted heavily towards Horde...

This is irrelevant. You're being defensive. Calm down. I don't care what other people are doing. :P

If you tell me to calm down one more time, I am just going to put you on ignore...

Are you saying that nobody else would have done the same? The nelves did it because they had the power to do it, no one else was immortal. And even then, they were MAJORLY split. The peace summit was orchestrated by many different races, is what I'm saying. And the night elves as a whole people are just as neutral as any other race of people in WoW. There are crazy xenophobes and fathers whose daughters are sick and they just want help. I do not see them as whatever you're uplifting them to be because... they aren't, really.

Yes, they aren't competent warriors, cunning and agile any more. They can't hold their own in a fight. Their pride is foolhardy, their arrogance unfounded and lethal to themselves. Cdev drove that point home. They are good at nothing, not even the stuff they should be good at. But this makes for great lore for a race to play...

Character flaws are powerful because they make a race relatable. Being a military king forever would have made it World of Night Elfcraft. Look at people like Fandral Staghelm; for years and years he plotted to take control of the Nelves and make them a military society that withdrew from the Alliance and all outsiders. Can you imagine that, if the nelves had kept their immortality and superior everything-ness, can you imagine if someone like Staghelm came into power? They'd conquer everyone. That's no fun.

Fandral was corrupted by Xavius and he was a Druid, not a military king. He was also responsible for pushing to get the Night Elves into the Alliance. If they had their immortality all it means is that they wouldn't be frail, weak, and unable to stand on their own.

And, no... I don't see how they gutted the appeal. They're very different now than they used to be, but I don't see them as damsels in distress. Who led the Hyjal Expedition into the Firelands to defeat Ragnaros? Jarod Shadowsong, that's who. Now that's a night elf I can respect.

read Wolfheart and come back to me on that...

Night elves are still some of the most played races in WoW. If you need me to grab you the wowrealmpop page, I will. People play them because "Hey cool, elves!" Not because of some tragic downfall story. And I happen to love tragic downfall stories!

They already had a tragic downfall. It was the War of the Ancients. No one wants to play a tragic downfall as it is happening as their tragic downfall... Clearly you don't. I didn't roll Night Elves for a tragic downfall, I rolled Night Elf to be a skilled, proud warrior with a rich ancient history and a fearless determination to thrive despite adversity and until Cataclysm this was what they were. Night Elves no longer have skill, their rich history isn't so rich, their determination to thrive is barely survive. A lot of people playing the game in general don't make decisions based on lore but rather how the models look.

Edit: Blah it's like one giant flash thing so you can't link wowrealmpop, but, in both EU and US servers, Night Elves are the second most played alliance race behind humans (and I have a feeling that has to do with the PvP racial.) I believe both of them sit at around 19% of the entire Alliance population sampled.

Yes, a whole lot of people play them coz they have a pretty model. A lot of people play them because they want to be a hunter named Lagolus on the "good guys" side Alliance. People whom played them for their story and lore are the ones reeling. Most people don't care about it either way. Night Elves don't have any racials that draw appeal either. It's a looks or lore race. And lore is horrible.

Would I play a night elf? My first druid and hunters and rogue and warrior were all night elves. I just like tauren more. I love the druidic feeling that permeates night elf culture, but I don't play Alliance, and I get that and more from my beloved tauren. :P

I think the Druidic feeling has trashed what should be a warrior culture. That's where the idea of a purple, vegan hippie tree-hugger comes about for Night Elves. A conception seen by average players in the playerbase, and one not associated with Tauren...

FInally, again, I'm sorry to tell you this hon, but it's THEIR story. They can write it how they please. You may disagree with it, but who knows where they're taking it? I have disagreed with a whole lot of stories I've read in which my favorite character dies or something similar, but at that point, I either close the book and tell the author to go fuck themselves or keep reading to figure out how they can justify such an occurrence. Perhaps you should do the same?

I'm pretty much there already. It's their story, but they cater to one group of their fans. They don't have authors passionate about the otherside. That's a problem.

They should just kill them off entirely and be done with it. "And so, unable to recover their numbers from constant warfare, frail, weak, dying off from their loss of Immortality, the last of the Night Elves retreated to Teldrassil and perished, returning to the land they once guarded in immortal life, to be forgotten to time, thus ending long standing conflicts with younger, better races more fit to last in this new age of mortals."

They don't make it to easy like that, they love building everyone up then big let down. Case in point, Tyrande doing something epic in 5.1, according to Kosak...

[bohapjut]

While we're at it we should exile Draenei back to Argus and Humans back to Northrend.

[Viscoe]

so much for lok'tar ogar

Stop takin' shots. Victory or death, and they chose victory xD

The best? I just want them to not be the worst.

Orcs are the best. Forsaken are the best. Humans are the best. Night Elves are the worst. Not average, not midland, worst. Fail bottom worst. You tell me how being a notch about murlocs in the world makes for a good story when you were introduced as the Perfect Warrior, wielding nature's fury and the powers of a Goddess? Night Elves can't even set up an ambush properly or defend without humans saving the day on their home turf. This is a tired of bit I've done with other people here. I want them to be on par with the Orcs, Humans and Forsaken in this story, not dirt ground under their heels. Might as well kill the whole fucking race off as far as Im concerned.

Now, I'm not trying to sound like I'm being a jerk, but this reminds me of when a class gets nerfed. Right now there's some arcane mages in my guild moaning that the spec will be abysmal and unplayable in 5.2 because it's receiving a damage nerf since it's so far ahead right now. That's kind of what you sound like. The night elves were SO FAR ahead of everyone else, and they got knocked down, but because they lost immortality, you're saying they're now the worst of the worst damsels in distress beaten on by the cdevs etcetera.

I just don't see it. Night elves are a main force that attacks the Horde on every major point in MoP and they were around a hell of a lot, too, in Cata. How are they supposedly so weak when, again, they led the Firelands expedition? And they still hold a capital city, don't they? They haven't lost that to anyone. The point I'm trying to make here is it feels like you're grasping at straws. I see nothing but development for them no matter where I look.

Just because they ain't what they used to be, it doesn't mean they've rung the gong. What I see in the night elves is a bunch of immortal people who got humbled by mortality, picked up what they used to be, and are trying now to make what they can out of what they have.

so let's stop talking about it. I'm defensive cause I have to be. I'm the only passionate Night Elf fan on this entire fucking forum. One slanted heavily towards Horde...

I feel as though you may be conjuring that slant :x In any case, you're talking to me, someone who's said that they're not biased. So don't be defensive, it doesn't lend you anything. In fact it hurts your arguments because it kind of makes you seem "fanboi"ish (please don't take that the wrong way.) And putting me on ignore just kinda proves my point. You're just sort of deflecting things so you can shout your opinions.

Yes, they aren't competent warriors, cunning and agile any more. They can't hold their own in a fight. Their pride is foolhardy, their arrogance unfounded and lethal to themselves. Cdev drove that point home. They are good at nothing, not even the stuff they should be good at. But this makes for great lore for a race to play...

For one, the players who play night elves prove they can be strong and cunning. I feel like that might hold water. The devs clearly take into account the actions of players in some parts of their storytelling. And you know, some other race is full of pride and lethal foolhardiness... oh, the blood elves! And look who's getting major play and development all over the place. :P Same with humans, really. In fact I can think of a point where I can say a good number of the races in WoW have had a downfall because of pride and ESPECIALLY foolhardiness.

That aside, in Krasarang, an all night elf expedition is holding their own just fine. If you wanna say they lost a lot to the mogu and that proves they can't hold their own, then I can say the tauren and orcs are just the same because they lost just as many if not more (the questlines are almost completely mirrored, though iirc, the tauren lost 3 to the night elves's 1.) In the Dominance Offensive scenario, night elf units are present and one of the major scenario objective bosses is a night elf arcanist. One of the champions in the Alliance Shieldwall area is a night elf warrior.

And those are just examples from this patch. >.> They seem to be ever present and doing just fine. I don't see where they're having problems. Perhaps you could show me some stuff instead of just trying to tell me they are being characterized as weak and all that jazz?

Fandral was corrupted by Xavius and he was a Druid, not a military king. He was also responsible for pushing to get the Night Elves into the Alliance. If they had their immortality all it means is that they wouldn't be frail, weak, and unable to stand on their own.

Fandral wanted to take control of the night elves. He disagreed with Tyrande's politics. In fact, when you clicked on him before Firelands, he would say, "If only she could see things MY way..." and other quotes like that. I wasn't saying if he took control, I was saying if a like-minded individual took control. If someone who wanted the night elves to stay a superior race to all other races took control of the immortal armies of night elves and made war on the rest of the world, they'd win, period, because, hey immortality. That's the point I was making. That was what the godmode talk was about. This is all theoretical here. :P

read Wolfheart and come back to me on that...

Unfortunately, I don't have that book. All I have to run on is wowpedia and in-game portrayals. And my flickering memory, because it's 6 AM and I have been up since this time yesterday and I'm sick. D:

They already had a tragic downfall. It was the War of the Ancients. No one wants to play a tragic downfall as it is happening as their tragic downfall... Clearly you don't. I didn't roll Night Elves for a tragic downfall, I rolled Night Elf to be a skilled, proud warrior with a rich ancient history and a fearless determination to thrive despite adversity and until Cataclysm this was what they were. Night Elves no longer have skill, their rich history isn't so rich, their determination to thrive is barely survive. A lot of people playing the game in general don't make decisions based on lore but rather how the models look.

Clearly I don't want to play night elves because of their story? Or clearly I just like tauren more? Because it's the latter. I have one Alliance toon for the sole purpose of seeing their quests that I play from time to time. It's a worgen because I like werewolves (sidenote: I hate their lore, it's stupid.) And if you rolled a night elf for that reason, then, well, I'm sorry - you're back to fanfiction for your reality. The truth is that the writers took night elves that direction because they thought it was right. You never know how they'll pick back up. I mean look at the poor shattered blood elves, they lost EVERYTHING and now they're finally getting some story to bolster them back up two expansions later.

Yes, a whole lot of people play them coz they have a pretty model. A lot of people play them because they want to be a hunter named Lagolus on the "good guys" side Alliance. People whom played them for their story and lore are the ones reeling. Most people don't care about it either way. Night Elves don't have any racials that draw appeal either. It's a looks or lore race. And lore is horrible.

I suppose we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think they've gone in a horrible downward spiral at all. I think they've had a fall, one amongst many, and they just keep picking themselves back up as people tend to do.

I think the Druidic feeling has trashed what should be a warrior culture. That's where the idea of a purple, vegan hippie tree-hugger comes about for Night Elves. A conception seen by average players in the playerbase, and one not associated with Tauren...

The proud warrior thing got dropped when WoW came out. To give you some insight, this was my exposure to night elf lore: Older brother plays this game. Tells me to pick a race on the Alliance because that's what he plays. I roll a gnome and a night elf (gnome first.) I really like how the night elves all live in trees and are into nature and animals, but then I quit because i don't like the game. I later try to get into it by reading about the lore on what was then wowwiki, and discover that night elves were once this one thing, but then WoW came out and they totally flipped over to another thing.

And you know what? I think the flip helped them more than hurt them. They came off as xenophobic, holier-than-thou pricks before WoW. Chilling them out a little bit made them look more appealing to a broader fanbase, I suspect. And honestly I can still see a lot of the proud warrior culture in the remaining sentinels and various quest NPCs scattered throughout the world.

I'm pretty much there already. It's their story, but they cater to one group of their fans. They don't have authors passionate about the otherside. That's a problem.

They should just kill them off entirely and be done with it. "And so, unable to recover their numbers from constant warfare, frail, weak, dying off from their loss of Immortality, the last of the Night Elves retreated to Teldrassil and perished, returning to the land they once guarded in immortal life, to be forgotten to time, thus ending long standing conflicts with younger, better races more fit to last in this new age of mortals."

They don't make it to easy like that, they love building everyone up then big let down. Case in point, Tyrande doing something epic in 5.1, according to Kosak...

It's a shame you think that way. I feel like you've invested a lot of yourself into identifying with the "old" night elves and so can't accept changes to them. Stuff changes, you've got to understand it, and stuff changes DRASTICALLY with stories.

As a sidenote, the faction bias thing is tauren doodoo. What isn't doodoo is saying they're REALLY focused on humans and orcs. But claiming Horde bias is about as tired as this conversation.

[Ehrenpanzer]

When did they save Azeroth from the Legion? As I recall, the Night Elves have done it twice. The Lich King? The Alliance were the ones to break the Scourge lines and break into the broken front before the horde stabbed us in the back there. And for the record, it was Tirion and the Argent Crusade who defeated the Lich King. Tirion who would side with the Alliance before the Horde any day. He also appointed Bolvar of the Alliance to take the mantle, not a horde. And Lastly Deathwing? As I recall it was the Dragonflights. Blizz dramatically over glorified thrall in cata which is partly why it was so terrible. Thrall has a mediocre power rating compared to some one like, say Malfurion, who sundered the world! A mortal cannot be an aspect. They broke lore on that one to sate their never ending thirst for green jesus. Trying desperately to make him matter and all it did was create the worst expac in WoW history.

where to start with this idiocy...

a)you never played WC3 did you?
b)All Tirion did was get his stupid ass frozen for the whole fight, pop out and grab the killing blow and then went back to Dala going "lawl I beat the LK, gimme a giant gold statue"...typical paladin
c)Yes..he appointed Bolvar...the only person stupid enough to take the job...the horde were smart enough to say screw that crap...captured horde=turned into raid bosses...captured alliance=wall decorations we need to rescue...
d)Overglorified? yes...
e)Of course he would side with the alliance...hes human...like Thrall would side with the horde because he's an orc
f)none of this would have happened if a HUMAN hadnt opened the portal in the first place ;p

[aGit]

exiled by whom exactly? who has the power to do such a thing?

[Skytotem]

Anyone who makes one of these threads should be exiled from MMO-C.

I kid.

Orcs wear their sins. Well most of them do, since untainted orcs like those that make up the Mag'har are the minority. Even the children and grand children of those that drank, but did not drink themselves are still tainted with the green skin. Apparently the taint is heriditary, but wont dilute over generations.

Most of the Mag'har are pretty much the same as the green orcs...

[Ilgalar]

* listens to the op calmly while casually unsheathing his blade. Rexighar looks at it and notices at the tip, a dry spot of blood. This pleases him greatly, Eyes glowing a misty red; Rexighar looks up at the op grinning wickedly and says " and i suppose your going to make us?"

[Exeris]

Oh would you stop making these threads.

There is no Draenor left to support the orc population.

Not that I agree with him, but Draenor seems big enough.

[Skytotem]

Not that I agree with him, but Draenor seems big enough.

Gamescale can be misleading, plus it's established in the 'shattering' novel that it still has lots of demons and crazy elementals running around that would make resettlement dangerous.

Plus, lots of Orcs have been born on Azeroth and Draenor is as alien to them as it is to anyone else, so it's hard to justify them packing up and moving there.

[Exeris]

Gamescale can be misleading, plus it's established in the 'shattering' novel that it still has lots of demons and crazy elementals running around that would make resettlement dangerous.

Plus, lots of Orcs have been born on Azeroth and Draenor is as alien to them as it is to anyone else, so it's hard to justify them packing up and moving there.

Approximately how big would Draenor be now lorewise?

[Florena]

where to start with this idiocy...

a)you never played WC3 did you?
b)All Tirion did was get his stupid ass frozen for the whole fight, pop out and grab the killing blow and then went back to Dala going "lawl I beat the LK, gimme a giant gold statue"...typical paladin
c)Yes..he appointed Bolvar...the only person stupid enough to take the job...the horde were smart enough to say screw that crap...captured horde=turned into raid bosses...captured alliance=wall decorations we need to rescue...
d)Overglorified? yes...
e)Of course he would side with the alliance...hes human...like Thrall would side with the horde because he's an orc
f)none of this would have happened if a HUMAN hadnt opened the portal in the first place ;p

a. I agree.
b. And that was the only part of the fight that mattered. Did you miss the part where the Lich King 1 shots the entire raid effortlessly? Where he revealed he was toying with us the whole time? The only reason we were able to kill him was Tirion shattered frostmourne, and the freed spirits zerg rushed him. At least with deathwing we were buying Thrall time. All we did in LK fight was give Tiron motivation to pray harder so he could save us from undeath.
c. Captured orc is broken and made into a death knight. Captured human resists the LK's torture and doesn't break, and in the end becomes the new lich king.
d. No comment, other than THRALL WAS NOT AN ASPECT. Not directed at you, but the person you're responding to.
e. Tiron wouldn't side with the Alliance, he sees honor and evil in both factions, and won't take a side in this war unless one side is very clearly evulz. Same with Thrall, he's only getting involved now because of what Garrosh is doing to his OWN peple.
f. A human possessed by Sargeras, lord of the Burning Legion.

[Skytotem]

Approximately how big would Draenor be now lorewise?

No earthly idea, we don't even know how big Azeroth is 'lorewise'.

For all we know EK and Kalimdor together could be the size of texas because Mulgore's apparently small enough for you to stand at one end and see the other :\

[Jaylock]

I mean, Thrall set up the Orcs in a desert, as a way of reminding them of their former evil. But many, if not all Orcs are ungrateful, with some even seeing Thrall as a bad leader (Garrosh). If they don't want to live in a desert, and don't want to repent, then they need to get off Azeroth and go right back to Draenor. Regardless of it's condition, it's another, far better way of reminding the Orcs of their sins, while being much more resourceful. They won't have to savagely kill or enslave other races, or do any of the evil deeds Garrosh is ordering around for now, to a large extent. Hell, Garrosh doesn't even have to die! If he leads like he does now, on Draenor, it wouldn't be that negative.

Discuss.

You bring up many good points. Seeing as how the Orcs are the main reason for the horde being blood thirsty savages, mindless half-wits with only the intent to kill innocent humans, night elfs, and others friendly to the alliance, they need to leave Azeroth.

Draenor would be the perfect place for them to remove to because it is their home land.

[Trollragemore]

But thrall isn't even in mists.

hmm guess u haven't gotten to the echo isle part of the dominance offensive quest line... cause Thrall was there, and so was the baby.


good or evil its a matter of prospective....

[DeadmanWalking]

My daughter once asked me why they let Slitherin kids go to Hogwarts, to which I replied, "Having a group in your school that is known for backstabbing, lies and acts of violence not only ensures that you keep your enemies close so they can be watched but it makes everyone else stronger because they have to be ready for the lowest of the low at all times. Just imagine how big of wimps their Quidditch teams would be if they all played fairly and honorably, this toughens them up so when they face other teams from outside the school they are ready."

Good job on everyone complaining about OP's anti-orc troll bait and then turning it into a full fledged discussion.

[Screwtape]

I think you've answered the question posed in this thread very nicely:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...nd-communities

[Zonas]

How about this. Why not exile humans, dreani, gnomes and dwarves to space?

Humans, gnomes and dwarves are just mutations created through the influence of Old Gods on creations that the the titans placed on Azeroth, not native creatures. Hell, humans are a mutation of a mutation. And dreani can go back to Draenor and play nice nice with the native orcs, or just fly around in space until the Legion catches back up with them.

Why stop there? Night Elves are supposedly nothing but transformed trolls, right? Let's brand them traitors to the trolls for siding with the alliance and execute them.