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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    I will seriously argue this, you should time your cooldowns so they are most beneficial. Why use AA before the aoe, for it to wear off just as it comes... when you could save it for the AOE and do 25% more burst RAW healing?

    Using it on cooldown is a waste, you should use it when you know you will get the most benefit from it.

    As for spirit shell, it depends on how you are using it. If you are trying to get it on all 25 raid members, yes, if you are trying to get it on 10 of them by just focusing on two groups then I would save it until after.
    You are committing a grave error. You are assuming that because AA can give you higher return during the burst that this counteracts the loss of healing from more frequent uses of AA. Let us say that all you get from using AA early is the aegis from PoH, 18s of spamming PoH with 2.3s cast time = 8 PoHs. Now lets say if you used it once every 45s on average you would get it to overlap with a single hit of a big aoe or 5s of high aoe damage, which could comfortably let you cast 4 PoHs with zero overheal and you can either keep the aegis alive or it will all be used up (effectively 100% return).

    18s of getting only the aegis part of PoH = 8*0.7*base = 5.6*base. So the benefit is 0.25*5.6*base

    4 full casts of PoH = 4*1.7 = 6.8*base. So the benefit is 0.25*6.8*base

    Your rationale is that this is why its better to use it like that. However you have forgoten that you are using AA 1.5 times more if you do so on Cd. So the total benefit of AA on CD is 0.25*5.6*1.5*base = 0.25*8.4*base, which is ~24% larger.

    I am just comparing a small delay where all you get is aegis to effectivelly full use of PoH over a short window. This is of course not realistic, because you do have overheal and loss of aegis no matter what and you also have spirit shell to contend with, which might cause you to lose all the aegis you have stacked in some cases. Also you don't really just spam PoH. Other spells that you might cast like PWS or PoM also benefit from it. Overall the increased uses almost always outweighs the benefit of more efficient usage.

    AA is 18s duration with a 30s cooldown. You will at most be without AA for 12s, so if you are delaying due to damage that is coming in less than 10s or more than 30s you are gaining nothing at all by delaying it you are wasting use of a cooldown, which will still be either active or ready again when you need it.

    All our highest HPS sequences involve effectively using AA on CD. It is just how it is and nothing can change it.

    Intuitively it might seem that using AA strategically is better, but in fact if you model any non trivial damage it turns out that using AA close to on CD is simply better. What you are doing by trying to synch AA is mostly skipping uses for comparatively small increase in the benefit you get from AA. Effectively you are simplifying the spec by sacrificing a certain amount of healing.

    The major reason why ppl don't often get better results by using AA on CD, is because it makes the playstyle very complex and the vast majority of players (including me in some encounters) just can't execute it well. For example on our hc empress tries, I just can't deal with the added complexity of the extra use of AA between spirit shells in p1, so I skip it. This definitely costs me healing though I don't delude myself and say that I am making better use of it.

    As for using SS on 2 groups and then using AA to heal after that is just plain wasteful. Even if you can put spirit shell on only 3 ppl on a third group it is definately worth using AA and using the extra healing on spirit shell or you if the burst is not a single hit you can time spirit shell to overlap the damage period.

    In summary a lot of people might think that not using AA on CD is making better use of it, but in any senario where the incoming damage is not trivial and almost every case when you are bubble spamming this is not true, because the CD is so short that even small delays produce large loses in healing.

    Id rather get DA stacks on the raid before the aoe without AA, while it might take slightly longer, that just means you start it 1-2 casts earlier.

    Then during the big portion of the AOE you have 25% more healing to actually do RAW healing on top of boosting whatever aegis might come out

    What if you use it on cooldown, during a phase transition where NOTHING is happening. Then immediatly into the phase its a heavy AOE phase and oh look, you don't have AA up.... then your AA went 100% to waste.
    This is exactly the kind of linear thinking that leads you to incorrect conclusions. How long do you think the aoe phase is going to be? Is it going to be 30s? In that case you can use it before hand AND during to boost BOTH the DA before AND the healing during the burst AND the DA after. You are just wasting healing but not gaining anything because you still get use of the CD. Remember its only really down for 12s if you use it on CD.

    Again how long is the phase transition. Is it 5s? 10s? 30s? How long is the burst phase. In many cases a long transition where nothing is happening is a perfect opportunity to use AA stack some aegis and restack evangelism quickly so you can use AA with spirit shell on the big aoe phase.

    Feel free to talk about any encounter in the current tier you like and I will prove to you conclusively by modelling it that using AA on CD is in the majority of cases more healing, even AA is used during low damage periods by using it on CD.

    The reason is simple in most cases delaying AA, rather than synching AA with incoming damage it ends up just dropping a use of it, because it duration is very long compared to its CD.

    In 5.2 you always want to synch AA with spirit shell and that means any use of it you get in between spirit shells is a bonus and hence using it on CD is just an extra use that you can get without sacrificing anything at all.

    In 5.1 in 25man since you really do want to synch AA with spirit shell most of the time you get the same result. Not using is just skiping a use, you don't get any benefit from skiping it.

  2. #22

    I don't care for a bunch of math numbers, math only goes so far when you use AA on cooldown and then you don't have anything to cast for 5-6 seconds.

    I will continue to disagree with you on your usage of AA, and continue to believe in mine. If it works for you great, but I personally would NEVER recommend using it on CD just because you can when you know 50% of it will go to waste.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 07:38 PM ----------

    For example on our hc empress tries, I just can't deal with the added complexity of the extra use of AA between spirit shells in p1, so I skip it. This definitely costs me healing though I don't delude myself and say that I am making better use of it.
    On a fight where there is consistant significant AOE damage, obviously use it on cooldown because it won't go to waste. But if a fight where there are gaps between significant portions of AOE damage, why bother using it on CD if you don't have anything worth while to use it on? Makes no sense at all.

  3. #23
    That is the whole point. Because you have stacked a 25% bigger aegis for 18s, you don't care about having 25% smaller heals for 5-6 seconds. You have ALREADY done way more healing that you could by popping AA during the burst healing with it for 6s and then watch the rest just go to overheal.

    Worse of all is if you use it after a burst and the next burst you have spirit shell up you might lose a big chunk of the aegis you stack from healing the raid up.

    If you are spamming absorbs then you should always try to maximise AA and plan ahead. Maximising AA rarely means saving it. In most cases it means using it close to on CD. Basically you should use it once between spirit shells at any stacks you manage to get and at 5 stacks with spirit shells on 3 groups. If there is a short burst its better to use it to stack either spirit shell or aegis before hand and don't forget that it also boosts PWS. If the bursts are long then you will get to use it in the burst anyway so you might as well also get some extra aegis in and restack evangelism so you don't have to lose time stacking it during the burst. Its nearly always a win-win. Only if the aegis you get from bubble spam will be lost there is no point in using AA. In that case however you should be smiting not bubble spamming and the above rules for using AA while atonement healing apply.

    You might not care about the maths, but that is exactly why your recommendation is flawed. Your intuition in this case is deceiving you. The maths don't lie. So disagreeing because it contradicts your gut instinct is your prerogative, but that does not really provide a logical basis supporting your argument.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-03-05 at 11:21 PM.

  4. #24
    You do realise aegis is no longer 100% right?

  5. #25
    Regarding the use on cd or not, imo depends a lot on the fight. The problem I have - and maybe I am too falling into that trap of not risking things, is that archangel is a fairly short cd, but it also has a ramp up time from needing to cast certain spells. In the 12 seconds I have after the effect expired, I need @7 seconds to rebuilt it up to 5 stacks and have it ready. This leaves me with an @5 seconds window to cast something else, and at least one PWS would need to go in those 12 seconds, prolly 2. If I also need to move for 2-3 seconds, which is often happening in most encounters, then the sequence starts feeling gcd pressed.

    There's also the difference between needed hps and not absolutely needed one. We are not dps, and maximizing potential overall hps, as appealing as it is for a log, is not always the mark of best healing performance. Imo an equally important thing is maximizing hps in key points of the fight, rather than sniping heals in trivial moments. I agree with the math you presented, but what happens if your tank dips low and needs a couple of gheals, and you miss those few seconds you have to charge up archangel before the significant aoe happens? Yes, a 5% less healing on that portion might be less in terms of numbers than the gains from using AA on cd, but it also might mean the difference between some ppl surviving and not.

    It's good to know how much using the spell on cd does compared to not and so is trying to find the best way to fit in that optimal sequence. Still, healing has a lot of exceptions, and each occasion should be judged on its own. Will I follow my optimal sequence and not toss a shield on a 10% person just because its a probability the person will not take more incoming dmg and others will heal it just fine? I'm usually not gonna take chances and shield that person even if its an hps loss for me if the shield doesn't get used. But that is part of my role, stabilizing critical moments. It's more important to know why you should or should not be using something on cd, than just taking for granted a theoretical hypothetical 0 overhealing, 0 risks situation. I've always advised disc priests to not be afraid of using their cds, they are not as long as they seem, unless they really need to be stored for something happening in the near future. Its same for archangel, even more so, since its just a throughput cd. Personally, if I know nothing major is gonna happen for the next 30 seconds, I'll use it if only to get some beefed up PWS and Gheal/IF to top up a tank, and continue smiting for the rest of the duration. I wasn't sure if doing this is actually an hps gain, for me the benefit of stabilizing a tank was good enough. Yes, I know sometimes atonement is better than gheal, but after playing disc for a while, I learned to like the safety of a nice shield, grace and clearly targeted healing on the tank rather than the randomness of atonement.

  6. #26
    Absorb stacks built before spikes contribute greatly to your healing during spikes in 5.1

    In 5.2 even though you really have to synch AA with spirit shell and that leaves one use in between, which there is no reason to waste even if it is not with 5 stacks.

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