Page 28 of 31 FirstFirst ...
18
26
27
28
29
30
... LastLast
  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Yes, if they immediately jump for every whim.
    c'mon.. give me one successful business that does that.

    And what does my age have to do with anything?
    No-one is asking Blizzard to jump to whim of every customer the simple fact is many have raised these concerns and Blizzard have tried to, once again, educate them and once again it has cost them customers and money from their bottom line. McDonalds, Walmart, Tesco, Argos, Ikea, many other successful high street brands that are too many to mention would have acted on the feedback given and not told their customers they were in the wrong.

    I asked your age because seriously I cannot workout if you are joking or not, obviously someone who has not left school would know any different and they could be excused for not knowing how the world works.

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    And yes, there is a fucking difference between "compelling" and "forced".
    Being forced is when it's the ONLY path you can take.
    Dailies was never the only path, which makes it non-forced.
    Do you feel like you've completely lost your grip on the debate when you start arguing semantics?

    To bypass doing daily quests in this expansion, you need to jump through some major hurdles, or accept that you're doing things sub-optimally. To bypass doing dailies in every other expansion, all you needed to do was not do them.

  3. #543
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    The Silk Road
    Posts
    9,424
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's almost as if they had data showing that only a piddling small fraction of their players raided, and those that didn't were churning through the game and unsubscribing.
    Has Blizz ever claimed that players in BC unsubbed because they weren't raiding? Ever? Do you have a single piece of evidence that players quit because they weren't raiding endgame? While raiding may have been the 'pinnacle' of classic-era WoW, there were plenty of players who just enjoyed the climb, without feeling some sort of driven obligation to 'finish' it. Then (to make a long story short, and probably push the analogy too far) Blizz decided it would be simpler (aka. cheaper) to just built a cable-car to the top and ignore the rest of the mountain.

    For that matter, if the problem was fast churn, how was eliminating tiered content, long questlines for attunements and such, and stuff like required farming of gear, supposed to help? How on Earth was putting players on an express train to endgame going to stop churn? Mandatory dailies? Roflmao!

    Players unsub not because of raiding or the lack of it, but because they aren't having fun. Starting sometime in Wrath, Blizzard decided it knew what was fun better than its players did, and ever since they've struggled to keep sub numbers from dropping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    But that would make too much sense and make your whining seem selfish, so it can't possibly be correct, yes?
    Nice, personal attacks. <golfclap> Yeah, sure, your idea that Blizz was worried about churn might be a reason for change. Do you have an evidence or reasoning to back that up? Would you like to have, you know, a discussion about the causes and merits of Blizzard's changes? Or would you rather throw insults and engage in blind refutation?

    It's like Blizzard's most ardent supporters are suffering from some sort of battered-person syndrome. They can't even talk rationally about things their idol might have done wrong.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 02:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    I'm not sure we REALLY agree here... maybe only on the surface.

    First, BC hit 10 million subscribers at around the release of Sunwell content. In WotLK it peaked at 12 million.

    So you are selectively throwing out WotLK and making it irrelevant even though it hit 12 million at the END of the expansion after Ruby Sanctum was released which... very few people actually played. Which was 8 months AFTER the release of ICC and this was when I personally started to see friends and guildmates leave the game because no new content had been added in so long and there just wasn't anything left for them to do.

    So your conclusion is/was that WotLK began a trend of dumbing down the game, and that reduction in complexity was the reason for the decline in subs... I think it is the complete opposite.
    You're right about when the peak came - I wasn't very detailed in my earlier post, but to explicate, I tend to think of early Wrath as still being part of the BC era. The talent system was still the same (just bigger), there were still group quests, long questlines, etc. I'm now trying to remember when they patched xp-gain to make leveling alts easier. (A quick trip through wowwiki didn't find anything.) Hell, that might have even been back in late BC. (Just checked, that was patch 2.3. Which is also when they started removing outdoor elites. Dang. I honestly thought that had happened in Wrath.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    I should qualify this by saying that I have been playing since Vanilla, and have almost been on the moderate-hardcore in the amount of time that I play (but not necessarily a hardcore raider as it does not appeal and my availability does not work well with it).

    My reason for saying that we disagree is that things have become WAAAAY more complicated. Raid mechanics are far more complex than anything we saw in BC or in Vanilla. There is so much going on different phases, targets, roles.
    While I started in late vanilla, by the time I was seriously raiding BC was in full swing. I played a ton through the start of Cataclysm, and slowly drifted away during that expansion.

    Actual raid fights may have become more complicated, but I think everything else, from characters to the world itself have become much, much simpler. Crafting (and gathering) are minor things, leveling is easy, traveling is trivial, and (imo) there were basically no challenging quests or instances left outside of endgame (non-LFR) raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    The accessibility of WotLK is what helped wow to peak. Separate lock out for 10 and 25 man, mean you could raid twice as much. Moving from 10 mans to 25 mans was a simpler transition and progression (despite being outside the realm of intended development).
    5 mans being a 15-30min endeavor, with decent upgrades at the end. Apropriate amount of dailies and rewards that were SEPARATE from any other content.

    In CATA it was the complete opposite, 5 mans were long drawn out and provide ghetto worthless rewards. Raids had a higher gear threshold to even participate in and thus made initially participating in them more difficult (not difficult themselves necessarily but brought back the importance of being properly geared to contribute or bring the group down) not only that while attempting to limit the number of buttons required to push made it much more important to really bring your A-game and be super focused on rotation and resource management, rather than just mindlessly face rolling.
    Here, I think we do see eye-to-eye. Wrath raiding and 5mans were a blast. (With the exception of ToC, which had some fun fights, but didn't quite live up to the rest of the raids, imo.) Cata 5-mans were indeed horrible. I remember (coming into Cata two months after release due to IRL committments) looking at the time required to complete dungeons and comparing it to the provided rewards being a major component of why I decided not to raid in Cata.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    MoP had the right IDEA in the different type of content available to players, but failed in making it either required... or semi required, and poor rewards for content.

    MMOs live and die by the rewards provided to its participants.

    What they have done (from my perspective) is limit the amount of rewards EXCEPT when doing certain specific content. Thus encouraging you to participate in that content... unless of course you don't like that content
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    then you can go fuck yourself
    Heh. I have played in MoP very little - a combination of things about it pushed me away from the game - but your analysis looks good.

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    You are missing some bits here
    Yes you technically can do LFR without touching dailies.
    You are also technically can do normal raids completely naked.
    The point is, can and actually do - are different things.

    If you are doing LFR - you need Elder Charms for extra rolls to get the most of it, this charms were added to the game just for that sole purpose - extra rolls.
    In light of low LFR drop rates - they are required. Without them you're just wasting your time there.
    The only way to get charms - via dailies.
    Also, LFR grants 90 VP per run per week. Up to 450 VP total.
    To spend VP you need Reputation with every faction at least honored.
    Should I say, hm, dailies?
    If the only "raiding" you do is LFR, and you play enough that you can run it every week on one (or more) characters, then you will be fine without rep-gated gear and tokens. Gearing in LFR without coins is slow but you have months to finish gearing for the next tier. I would advise someone who isn't doing normal or heroic raiding to forget about coins, unless he is only able to play every other week or something like that.

    Now, I still think the system of dailies in 4.0 is onerous. I don't really care about the gear but they feel "required" to me because of the rep-gated patterns. I don't mind grinding reputation but I do mind having only one way to do it.

  5. #545
    My understanding is that the dailies in 5.2 are a server wide rep faction, akin to isle of quel danas. I didn't touch a single daily in IoQD and still got access to the vendors. Will that be the same in 5.2? Or am I missing something?

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    Has Blizz ever claimed that players in BC unsubbed because they weren't raiding? Ever? Do you have a single piece of evidence that players quit because they weren't raiding endgame?
    You mean, aside from them making raids far easier in the next expansion? But I guess your theory of why they did it is better -- demonic possession, was it?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  7. #547
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Absolutely not. The argument that's being made doesn't apply to heroic raids at all. It only applies to dailies because they are a relatively EASY and REGULAR source of reward that is just incredibly bland and time consuming. If they weren't easy they wouldn't be accessible, if it wasn't accessible it wouldn't be forced. If it wasn't a regular source of reward it wouldn't be forced.

    Honestly when someone makes that argument and thinks they are rational making it I start to wonder if they're even paying attention.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 11:01 PM ----------



    Are you even reading the conversation that's happening? Or are you so far up your arguments own ass that you can't see what anybody else is saying?

    The majority of complaints on MMOC WERE NOT THAT. The majority of complaints in this thread alone weren't even close to that. It's not false to say DAILIES FEEL FORCED because they very much DO FEEL FORCED. It is false to say that any content is forced because the reality is nothing in this game is forced. I could stop playing tmmrw. That's a real choice mind you, not the non choice the dailies present. If you don't like forced, and you people seem to be hung up over the literal definitions of these words (ignoring the substance of the arguments that are being made) then we'll start using compelled. Dailies are to compelling which is leading them to feel VERY FORCED. Remove the gear from them. Simple.

    This conversation is retarded. Honestly. Even the developers have acknowledged it's a problem and it FELT FORCED. Because it very much WAS FORCED in any meaningful context. In some abstract post modern existentialist sense I'm sure nothing is forced. Sartre would probably be arguing that exact same thing. However in a very real sense it is forced. You people arguing that they aren't are arguing the academic argument and ignoring the realities. To fucking bad for you that the game will be changed to meet our needs and desires instead of your sophistry.
    I agree with this guy. For Heroic raiders, dailies did indeed feel mandatory and nothing you or anyone else say, can change that feeling. Blizz said, that they wanted to make sure, that there was enough content for non raiders but that's not a valid excuse imo. They didn't have to tie reputation to dailies like they did, they didn't have to let raid bosses drop so few VP as they did, they didn't have to let the only way of obtaining Charms be from dailies.

    Heroic raiders will do anything possible to ensure success when raiding and thinking otherwise is just lack of sense.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    I agree with this guy. For Heroic raiders, dailies did indeed feel mandatory and nothing you or anyone else say, can change that feeling. Blizz said, that they wanted to make sure, that there was enough content for non raiders but that's not a valid excuse imo. They didn't have to tie reputation to dailies like they did, they didn't have to let raid bosses drop so few VP as they did, they didn't have to let the only way of obtaining Charms be from dailies.

    Heroic raiders will do anything possible to ensure success when raiding and thinking otherwise is just lack of sense.
    So you are saying that I can't have nice stuff because it "forces" heroic raiders to do something they don't want to do, or even need to do ?
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    So you are saying that I can't have nice stuff because it "forces" heroic raiders to do something they don't want to do, or even need to do ?
    No we're saying there should be options to get that "nice stuff" besides daily quests. Charms only being available from dailies and now pet battles is absolutely stupid since its a currency used mainly in raiding.

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    And yes, there is a fucking difference between "compelling" and "forced".
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Why? Is it that hard for people to use the correct English word?
    If I mean 'hilarious' I am not going to use the word 'sad'.
    If I think something is 'great', I will not use the word 'crap'.
    You can't just use words that have a totally different meaning.

    If I want to speak with people who make up their own language I will talk to toddlers.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compel

    1. to force or drive, especially to a course of action

    First definition, just saying.

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by puppypizza View Post
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compel

    1. to force or drive, especially to a course of action

    First definition, just saying.

    asdjsikadjskal LOL HAHAHAHAHAHH thank you. It's just sophistry their trying to argue at this point. They've really lost the argument now. They lost it back when this BS was hashed out and their only reocourse was to cling to the literal meaning of the words. Turns out even the literal meanings of these words don't agree with them. Fantastic. Thank you so much. That's just fucking amazing. I don't know if the developers actually looked up the root of the word because they call it compelling all the time but they really ought to stop now. That's fantastic. I think I'm gonna tweet that to ghostcrawler.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 07:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    So you are saying that I can't have nice stuff because it "forces" heroic raiders to do something they don't want to do, or even need to do ?
    Why does that nice stuff have to be gear driven dailies? Like I'm all for you having dailies with gear and going as slow as you like. I just don't see why I should have to deal with it when you can have REAL choice in the matter. I could theoretically farm my face off in dungeons for valor and rep with a tabard and you could take your time and daily once a day just like the little engine that could and it wouldn't make a difference. That would be REAL choice. Not the non choice we have now.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-05 at 08:06 AM.

  12. #552
    - I am forced to pay 15$/month to play this game ( since that's the only way )
    - I am forced to do Heroic Shekzer ( Heroic Raid ) to get my epic fist weapon ( the best weapon for me ) ... ( since there's no other way to get the gear )
    - I am forced to do daily to get reputation ... ( since there's no other way ... maybe the pipe )
    - I am forced to get reputation to buy gear from faction vendor .. ( since there's no other way )
    - I am not Forced to buy from Reputation Vendor to gear up ... ( since you can gear up from other way ... Prof, LFR, Normal Raid, Heroic Raid )

    Yes, you are forced to do daily if you want to gear up faster ( But none forced you to gear up faster ... is it ? )

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Deus_77 View Post
    - I am forced to pay 15$/month to play this game ( since that's the only way )
    - I am forced to do Heroic Shekzer ( Heroic Raid ) to get my epic fist weapon ( the best weapon for me ) ... ( since there's no other way to get the gear )
    - I am forced to do daily to get reputation ... ( since there's no other way ... maybe the pipe )
    - I am forced to get reputation to buy gear from faction vendor .. ( since there's no other way )
    - I am not Forced to buy from Reputation Vendor to gear up ... ( since you can gear up from other way ... Prof, LFR, Normal Raid, Heroic Raid )

    Yes, you are forced to do daily if you want to gear up faster ( But none forced you to gear up faster ... is it ? )
    Technically your not forced to do any of those things. You don't have to pay 15 bucks to play this game. Nothing about what you listed is forced. At all. That doesn't mean it's good or that's it doesn't severely shove you in that direction. And it's designed to do exactly that. The developers just call it "compelling" when in reality it's very much FORCED.

  14. #554
    It just gets to a point where if someone says they "feel forced" to do something, and the retort is "Well, if you just do this, that, this and that, and if you know a guy, and the stars align, then you don't have to, ergo it's not mandatory", you just have to shake your head. That or you just get called lazy, entitled or undeserving. :/ Bonus points for all 3.

    Doesn't matter if it's "absolutely mandatory" or "effectively mandatory". The game designers may put up hoops, but if players don't wanna jump through them, something's gotta give.

    How about instead of attacking the semantics ("It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."), people look at the heart of the argument. The developers seem to feel that "mandatory"-ness was affecting people's enjoyment of the game. So they're putting in viable alternatives. Alternatives are a good thing. You get to keep playing the game the way you wanted, and now other people can play the game the way they want.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Why does that nice stuff have to be gear driven dailies? Like I'm all for you having dailies with gear and going as slow as you like. I just don't see why I should have to deal with it when you can have REAL choice in the matter. I could theoretically farm my face off in dungeons for valor and rep with a tabard and you could take your time and daily once a day just like the little engine that could and it wouldn't make a difference. That would be REAL choice. Not the non choice we have now.
    Well, probably because they feel that dungeons are rewarding enough as they are. You know, like they keep telling you ?
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    No we're saying there should be options to get that "nice stuff" besides daily quests. Charms only being available from dailies and now pet battles is absolutely stupid since its a currency used mainly in raiding.
    This.

    /thread

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    Well, probably because they feel that dungeons are rewarding enough as they are. You know, like they keep telling you ?
    They kept telling us dailies shouldn't feel forced. And yet here we are. I get that they think dungeons are rewarding enough. I disagree with them but it's a moot point really. They could give me all the dungeon reward in the universe and you could sitll daily your face off for your "nice" things. Of course what they won't tell you is that if they did that then it's likely you'd feel very FORCED to do dungeons over your daily quests and then well we can't force you guys who like dailies to do anything outside your little bubble can we? The proverbial shoe would be on the other foot. So dungeons have to have exactly the reward they do now which isn't enough. If they had anymore well dailies would fall by the way side really.

    Effectively when they say dungeons have enough reward, they are using the forced argument as well but they just don't get around to saying it. If dungeons had anymore reward they'd feel VERY FORCED over dailies and then dailies would be obsolete even though you could potentially still do them and take your time and be as slow as you like. Of course they never acknowledge that forced argument because people upset at dailies would just turn it around and say well dailies are forced then which they are.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-05 at 08:45 AM.

  18. #558
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by velde046 View Post
    That's not true, they said they agreed that it FELT forced, not that it actually was. Because it simply wasn't.... there were plenty of ways to gear up, it would just take longer, but still it was/is possible.
    The thing here is that it would take "too long" for players standards. Yeah... some people can put up with it but guess what? lots of people WILL NOT put up with it.
    There's no reason to limit players options... oh wait let me rephrase that: There's no reason to limit player equal options.

  19. #559
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Xihuitl View Post
    The monk thing would not work for the simple reason that autoattacks for melee (and hunters) and cast times for ranged act as a balancing effect on dps over time and help control it. If you take a class with no auto attack it still needs to do the same dps over time as other specs to be competitive, but you have to bake all that dps into on use abilities, meaning the burst potential is massively higher, esp when you are combining it with an "on demand deplete" resource like chi. No auto attack in wow woudl have meant massive burst in pvp, and if you toned that down, it woudl have meant sub-par dps in pve.
    Its a simple fundamental principle that should have been obvious from the start to Bliz. You cant shoe horn in a no-auto attack class into a game dominated by auto attack/cast time classes and expect it to be balanced.
    Actually they have a mechanic called "DoT" which allows them to balance it quite thoroughly even without putting 20% of damage into auto-attack (which it is for most melees). The reason they felt it wasn't thoroughly workable was other issues than just pvp burst potential.

  20. #560
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by gnlogic View Post
    [whiners] Not enough content
    [blizzard] Here are various daily quest you can do without cap and get cool rewards/experience lore/get tokens for bonus loot in raids
    [whiners] too much content! I feel like i am forced to do this now. Tnx blizz

    [whiners] Everyone sits in capitals and just que for LFD no one goes out into the world anymore
    [blizzard] no rep tabards so people would have to go out into the world/explore and earn their reputation
    [whiners] QQ bring back tabards I do not want to go out into the world to do stuff i want to que for dungeons only

    [whiners] my server is dead i never see other people. fix this
    [blizzard] introducing CRZ you can now see other people in place you thought were empty before
    [whiners] QQ now i have competition for my mobs/ore/plants/get ganked on pvp server you ruined my game-play

    [whiners] Blizzard is only catering to hardcore players and ignoring their casual base
    [blizzard] Here is LFR you can que when you like and do only what you want
    [whiners] QQ blizzard is only tailoring to casuals what about the hardcore players?
    [blizzard] here are Challenge modes for mounts/xmog gear
    [whiners] blizzard making gear/mount only exclusive to hard core what about the casual player?

    and this list can go on, and on, and on, and on...
    allow me to fix this:

    Quote Originally Posted by gnlogic View Post
    [whiners type 1: bussybody] Not enough content
    [blizzard] Here are various daily quest you can do without cap and get cool rewards/experience lore/get tokens for bonus loot in raids
    [whiners type 2: easy overwhelm] too much content! I feel like i am forced to do this now. Tnx blizz

    [whiners type 3: globe trotter] Everyone sits in capitals and just que for LFD no one goes out into the world anymore
    [blizzard] no rep tabards so people would have to go out into the world/explore and earn their reputation
    [whiners type 4: dungeon trotter] QQ bring back tabards I do not want to go out into the world to do stuff i want to que for dungeons only

    [whiners type 5: pack mentality] my server is dead i never see other people. fix this
    [blizzard] introducing CRZ you can now see other people in place you thought were empty before
    [whiners type 6: lone wolfs] QQ now i have competition for my mobs/ore/plants/get ganked on pvp server you ruined my game-play

    [whiners type 7: "casuals"] Blizzard is only catering to hardcore players and ignoring their casual base
    [blizzard] Here is LFR you can que when you like and do only what you want
    [whiners type 8: "hardcores"] QQ blizzard is only tailoring to casuals what about the hardcore players?
    [blizzard] here are Challenge modes for mounts/xmog gear
    [whiners type 9: "casuals"] blizzard making gear/mount only exclusive to hard core what about the casual player?

    and this list can go on, and on, and on, and on...
    Moral of the story? DIFFERENT whiners whine making it look like whinning is all the time.

    WHINNING CONTINUES BECAUSE BLIZZARD TRIES TO CATTER TO EVERYONE, WHEN IT IS FREAKING IMPOSSIBLE! NOT ONCE IN HUMAN HISTORY OF ANYTHING HAS ANYONE MADE EVERYONE HAPPY! REALITY IS NOT FREAKING MEDAKA BOX AND BLIZZARD IS NOT FREAKING KUROKAMI MEDAKA!

    This the true source of "whinning" problem in blizzard games. The only way to fix it is to select one solid playerbase type and stick with it.
    Last edited by mmocac96309fe0; 2013-03-05 at 09:00 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •