Good and evil in Star Wars

[Elim Garak]

Jedi and Sith are more of the Order vs Chaos conflict than Good vs Evil.
Jedi are evil in their zealousness. Total Order is as evil as Total Chaos.
Both Sith and Jedi use the conflict as sublimation.
Without Sith - Jedi would become Control Freaks.
Without Jedi - Sith would destroy all life.
So they kill each other as a form of sublimation.

[Deleted]

That is incorrect.

The Death Star was built as a weapon of deterrence and used on Alderaan much the same was a the atomic bomb was used on hiroshima and nagasaki. (Just in case you didn't know, the atomic bomb was not needed to defeat Japan. It was to say "back off" to the rooskies and prevent another Berlin split.)

They even say, in episode 4, that it is the ultimate deterrence and that no one in the galaxy would stand against them so long as they had the death star.

America uses the same justification for having a stockpile of nuclear weapons capable of ending the human race.

Doesn't change that they used it to kill innocents, an entire planet full of people. And to use it, so that people don't defy them is just as evil. Comparing it to Hiroshima and Nagasaki is really not a point in its favour.

[RoninaThorstone]

Doesn't change that they used it to kill innocents, an entire planet full of people. And to use it, so that people don't defy them is just as evil. Comparing it to Hiroshima and Nagasaki is really not a point in its favour.

So are you saying America is evil?

[Deleted]

Jedi and Sith are more of the Order vs Chaos conflict than Good vs Evil.
Jedi are evil in their zealousness. Total Order is as evil as Total Chaos.
Both Sith and Jedi use the conflict as sublimation.
Without Sith - Jedi would become Control Freaks.
Without Jedi - Sith would destroy all life.
So they kill each other as a form of sublimation.

I've never seen Jedi being total control freaks. However that really has nothing to do with evil or good. Jedi are generally good because they do good things, Sith are generally evil because they do evil things.

---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 04:01 PM ----------

So are you saying America is evil?

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were evil acts.

[RoninaThorstone]

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were evil acts.

Okay, how about more recent actions?
America's refusal to pay fair trade prices (as opposed to free trade prices) for resources needed for high tech resulted in the death of 4 million innocent people in the Congo between 1980 and 2000.
America assassinated several nationalist leaders in india, africa, and south america in order to facilitate free trade capitalism.
America has propped up many dictatorships in order to protect free trade capitalism over democracy.
America has "dumped" cheap agro products to undermine local agro in order to replace the, now failing, farms with cash crops resulting in food insecurity (famine really).
I could list more but /shrug. I think you are starting to get that there's a lot of American government and TNC sanctioned acts that would be considered "evil" with your definition of good/evil.

[Keren]

If a Jedi becomes a Sith, it's usually because he's doing evil things.

Excactly at this point, there is the flaw in the swtor storytelling. The philosophy behind those dont equotate into good and evil. If a jedi have to choose between killing one to reque hundreds. He will instantly kill the innocent to ensure the live of the other. Hes rational in each test. A sith will ask his feelings. If the personal value of this one person is great enough, they will worship those hundreds themself if they have to.
Sure, there are people which love madness. But then you discuss a person, and not light and dark side.

[Elim Garak]

I've never seen Jedi being total control freaks.

That's because there are Sith around to keep them busy.
That doesn't stop Jedi from taking kids from their families and forbidding any contacts henceforth.
Jedi can't love, they can't be good.
How someone who says "there's no emotion" can be good? Vulcans with lightsabers.

However that really has nothing to do with evil or good. Jedi are generally good because they do good things, Sith are generally evil because they do evil things.

Good and Evil are in the eye of beholder. A galaxy without Sith - would be Hell, without Jedi it will be dead.

Really just think about what would Jedi do after the Last Sith have been killed? Meditate? That's boring. They will fall to the dark side out of frustration.

---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 07:14 PM ----------

One cannot become Sith by doing evil things. Siths that do evil things for the kicks - just gone mad.

[Deleted]

I've never seen Jedi being total control freaks. However that really has nothing to do with evil or good. Jedi are generally good because they do good things, Sith are generally evil because they do evil things.

---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 04:01 PM ----------



Hiroshima and Nagasaki were evil acts.

Ok, Hiroshima first: The loss of several thousand lives to prevent the loss of millions via an invasion of the mainland, which could have been disastrous. Is "good" the fact that more people lived than would have had the bombings not happened, or "bad" because the targets were civilians and caused countless atrocrious side effects. And who was acting evil? The Americans that developed and deployed the weapon in a limited capicity, or the Japanese government who refused to surrender for the good of their people even after the first bomb was dropped.*

Y'see that's the trouble with black and white morality, it's subjective. What is good for one is evil for another. Same can be said of Jedi and Sith. The Sith Empire, if it spanned the galaxy, has the potential to be one of the most functioning systems of government. Everyone knows their place and what is expected of them, is based on a series of contracts between, say, Master and Apprentice, Lord and Slave, Sith and Citizen. In theory, the strong Sith protect those who swear loyalty to them, and is almost Darwinian in deciding who is a "strong" Sith. I don't think any Sith who goes around murdering anyone he likes would be allowed to live long.

Now look at the Jedi: They excluded themselves, withdrawing to Tython when the galaxy needed them (iirc). They take young children from their families to train and indoctrinate. Their order is rigid in their code, unwilling to break it for the general good. Another thing, the Jedi are often quite zealous in persecuting those they deem "bad". If you want an example of what an "evil" Jedi might be, the trope codifer is probably Javert from Les Miserables (now that the movie is out his personality archtype more widespread known) who would hunt down someone they deem "bad" despite the reasons why being minor or negligible, giving the person no chance at a life other than punishment, who is ruthless in his dealings with anyone they deem "bad" (not that they would murder them mind you, but if they were, say, caring for a child, the Jedi would take the criminal to jail and leave the child to fend for him/herself)

Remember, both Sith and Jedi can be either "good/virtuous" or "evil"

IMO it goes:

Good Sith: Commands the respect of his subordinates via his strength and protects them from any threats.
Evil Sith: Cares only for himself and breaks alliances willingly to futher his ends.
Good Jedi: Notices what may benefit the communities or persons they are helping and tries their best to assist.
Evil Jedi: Wishes for the will of the law, order, or his/her perception of "good" to be enforced without regard for it's real world applications.

* (For the record, I don't think any side was particularly "good" in that war)

[RoninaThorstone]

Ok, Hiroshima first: The loss of several thousand lives to prevent the loss of millions via an invasion of the mainland, which could have been disastrous.

Which is such a myth it's not even funny.

[WarpedAcorn]

Why is it that so many people are rationalizing the bad guys to always be the good guys or that they argue that there really is no good or bad, when it should be generally agreed upon by everyone that killing and harming innocents is morally wrong.

It depends on how you define good and evil. For me, good is doing something that is benefitial to someone else and is not benefitial to you. For me, evil is doing something that is harmful to someone else and is benefitial to you.

They grey areas come in when you: do something that is benefitial to someone else and is also benefitial to you; do something that is harmful to someone else and is harmful to you; do something that is harmful to someone else and is benefitial to someone; ect...


The Sith culture is an aggressive culture that prizes strength. To this end it promotes some things we view as negative in order to strengthen the whole. I have a hard time arguing against the Sith Philosophy, but have a tough time rationalizing its practice when the majority committ acts of evil that serve no purpose except to fuel one's own vanity.

[Deleted]

Okay, how about more recent actions?
America's refusal to pay fair trade prices (as opposed to free trade prices) for resources needed for high tech resulted in the death of 4 million innocent people in the Congo between 1980 and 2000.
America assassinated several nationalist leaders in india, africa, and south america in order to facilitate free trade capitalism.
America has propped up many dictatorships in order to protect free trade capitalism over democracy.
America has "dumped" cheap agro products to undermine local agro in order to replace the, now failing, farms with cash crops resulting in food insecurity (famine really).
I could list more but /shrug. I think you are starting to get that there's a lot of American government and TNC sanctioned acts that would be considered "evil" with your definition of good/evil.

Yes, America has done a lot of "evil" things. Though I don't really like the term evil when we talk about real world stuff, but they've certainly done morally questionable things.

But in the fantasy world of Star Wars things are much more "hero vs villain"-like.

If a jedi have to choose between killing one to reque hundreds. He will instantly kill the innocent to ensure the live of the other

Where do you get that from? To me that sounds a lot like Malachor V, and that turned Revan to the darkside. Sacrificing a small number of people to rescue a large number of people is certainly something that is somewhere in the grey area and you can certainly argue in favour of it, but it's nothing that Jedi usually do.

That's because there are Sith around to keep them busy.
That doesn't stop Jedi from taking kids from their families and forbidding any contacts henceforth.
Jedi can't love, they can't be good.
How someone who says "there's no emotion" can be good? Vulcans with lightsabers.

Good and Evil are in the eye of beholder. A galaxy without Sith - would be Hell, without Jedi it will be dead.

Really just think about what would Jedi do after the Last Sith have been killed? Meditate? That's boring. They will fall to the dark side out of frustration.

---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 07:14 PM ----------

One cannot become Sith by doing evil things. Siths that do evil things for the kicks - just gone mad.

There are certain moral values most people agree on. Most people would agree that a Sith Emperor, who kills off whole planets, kills even his own people is evil. It's the classic example of an evil character. People who kill and harm others for personal gain and pleasure are generally seen as evil.

[RoninaThorstone]

Yes, America has done a lot of "evil" things. Though I don't really like the term evil when we talk about real world stuff, but they've certainly done morally questionable things.

But in the fantasy world of Star Wars things are much more "hero vs villain"-like.

Yes. And your question was:
"Why is it that so many people are rationalizing the bad guys to always be the good guys or that they argue that there really is no good or bad, when it should be generally agreed upon by everyone that killing and harming innocents is morally wrong."

It's because in real life there is no such thing as objectively "good" or "evil" acts. In a fantasy fiction sense (IE: bible) it works assuming you are the target culture and thus your morals line up with the story.

[Deleted]

Yes. And your question was:
"Why is it that so many people are rationalizing the bad guys to always be the good guys or that they argue that there really is no good or bad, when it should be generally agreed upon by everyone that killing and harming innocents is morally wrong."

It's because in real life there is no such thing as objectively "good" or "evil" acts. In a fantasy fiction sense (IE: bible) it works assuming you are the target culture and thus your morals line up with the story.

Of course there's objectively good and evil. If a guy fucks and kills children, no one would even argue about it.

[RoninaThorstone]

Of course there's objectively good and evil. If a guy fucks and kills children, no one would even argue about it.

No. That's still subjective and highly ethnocentric.

Consider the act of culling. People do it with livestock all the time. Slaves were considered livestock and in the "modern" societies past, and many societies today that still practice slavery, killing a slave child that is weak or sickly would only be considered smart.
Or the american practice of sterilizing retarded children which continued till, what? 1960s? Until people shifted what they defined as "evil" it was just considered good public policy.
How about the spartans? A baby didn't look quite right, off the cliff it went. They didn't think it was evil.
How about the practice of placing your baby in a shoe box and putting it under your bed till it dies? In ghetto sprawls of south america that's not unheard of. It's viewed as giving the child back to god because you lack the resources to care for it. Not evil, just sad.

edit: The abortion debate. Some view it as "baby killing" others view it as planned parenting, waiting until they can be sure they can give a child all the resources they need in order raise it in a good environment.

[Deleted]

Which is such a myth it's not even funny.

Makes for depressing reading.

[philefluxx]

Why is it that so many people are rationalizing the bad guys to always be the good guys or that they argue that there really is no good or bad, when it should be generally agreed upon by everyone that killing and harming innocents is morally wrong.

I bolded the key to your answer. A Jedi may call someone innocent while a Sith does not. A Sith may consider someone to be acting within the bounds of law, while a Jedi views it as cruelty.

Its all a matter of prospective between the Sith Empire and the Republic. Something SWTOR fell pretty short on in my opinion. I really thought they would do a better job at blurring the lines that we perceive to be good and evil. But they pretty much made the Empire seem evil and the Republic corrupted.

[Bigitybones]

That is incorrect.

The Death Star was built as a weapon of deterrence and used on Alderaan much the same was a the atomic bomb was used on hiroshima and nagasaki. (Just in case you didn't know, the atomic bomb was not needed to defeat Japan. It was to say "back off" to the rooskies and prevent another Berlin split.)

They even say, in episode 4, that it is the ultimate deterrence and that no one in the galaxy would stand against them so long as they had the death star.

America uses the same justification for having a stockpile of nuclear weapons capable of ending the human race.

sorry but no japan was a country at war with the USE alderran was a planet filled with pacifists under the government of the new order( ie the empire) they bombed their own citizens to make a point to one individual it was nothing but a terrorist act they even HAD the information they wanted but wanted to make a point to the rest of the galaxy so sorry you cant rationalize that one

[RoninaThorstone]

sorry but no japan was a country at war with the USE alderran was a planet filled with pacifists under the government of the new order( ie the empire) they bombed their own citizens to make a point to one individual it was nothing but a terrorist act they even HAD the information they wanted but wanted to make a point to the rest of the galaxy so sorry you cant rationalize that one

Sure I can.

Peace through strength. US foreign policy for half a century now.

Pretty sure the empire had intel that alderaan was aiding the rebels, Leah was a senator representing Aldreaan, right? And she was aiding the enemy of the Empire. Why not "go to war" over that? Would you rather the empire say that Alderaan was hiding WMDs?

[Elim Garak]

Of course there's objectively good and evil. If a guy fucks and kills children, no one would even argue about it.

I can find a society or two on this very planet who would argue. Fucking children is easy - go into Muslim territories and look at their wedding practices.
Also Ancient Greece - Hoplites fucking young boys (who they tutor in martial arts) to make them good men and good hoplites

As for infanticide:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21101730169473
And that's just one case.

[RoninaThorstone]

Also Ancient Greece - Hoplites fucking young boys (who they tutor in martial arts) to make them good men and good hoplites

Romans were cool with that too.

Also, how do we define" children"? Would a girl of 9 be considered a "child"? because girls that age get married and fucked all the time across the world and its socially acceptable within those cultures.