Is Sylvannas good or bad?

[Deleted]

Simple question.

Do you belive she's good, helping her people, caring for them against the evil forces that don't understand their pain, the terrible problem of being forsaken by everyone, hated even by your loved ones and looking like a monster

OR

do you think she's evil, a monster caring only for herself and using her people as a shield for her, she'd sacrifice everyone in a heartbeat if she'd live, she'd kill every man, woman and child, she'd torture anyone who is not forsaken simply to assure that nobody will try to ever kill her?

Arguments please.

[Skytotem]

She is really evil, you can't let your citizens perform invasive brain surgery on a human, then have her -parade that human around in the city- (mindslave Theresa) and NOT be evil.

[Combatbutler]

If we use our present morals, there is no way she could not be seen as evil, though if we go a few centuries back it would be a bit different.

She truly has fallen from what she used to be.( I mean when she was alive)

[Deleted]

She is really evil, you can't let your citizens perform invasive brain surgery on a human, then have her -parade that human around in the city- (mindslave Theresa) and NOT be evil.

wow, didn't even know of that npc... that is indeed evil.

[Combatbutler]

wow, didn't even know of that npc... that is indeed evil.

You should visit undercity more often, it is there since vanilla.

[xxf2dxx]

There is no good or evil, just those that do what they must to survive.

[Deleted]

I don't know if evil is the good word but she's not very altruistic but she's not evil as the burning legion for exemple...

[Deleted]

She's a crazy evil bitch

[checking facts]

she's neither good nor evil. she's here to defend herself and she'll do whatever it takes for that, no moral shackles attached.

garrosh wants gilneas? well, I need the horde, so gilneas goes down!
the forsaken want lordaeron? well, they keep me protected, so I'll keep them happy and take it.
there's a troll-killing sword in arathi? let's go grab it, the owner of the sword is one of us anyway. but let's not stay there, that place stinks.
southshore is causing trouble again*? bury it under plague. southshore is in lordaeron and lordaeron belongs to the forsaken anyway.

*Kingslayer orkus says: Hillsbrad has changed. Back in my day Hillsbrad was a place of constant battle. The humans and dwarves of Southshore would constantly attack the Horde at Tarren Mill. There were days when you could look out past the intersection at Darrow Hill and see a thousand people battling. Glory days, <name> - they'll pass you by.

if you live in the middle of your enemie's lands and you keep attacking them, you are asking for a beating. the forsaken were lenient to wait for 8 years before throwing everything they had at them. the humans there had plenty of time to leave. and if the farmers from westfall can travel to the plaguelands because they want lands, than the people from southshore should have been able to move to stormwind.

[Deleted]

This thread is likely to get massive, so I'd like to get a brief summary of my views on the first page. I'll try be terse, but since she's my favourite character and one that causes much controversy and conflict, it might be difficult.

-She's not inherently evil, I think that she is more or less amoral and narcissistic (clinically so IRL). I say this as I do not believe she actively seeks to make people suffer beyond what is necessary for victory or if she feels they have wronged her and therefore deserve reprisal. That being said, vengeance is seen as evil in many cultures.

-One of the biggest claims for her being evil is her actions in the invasion of Gilneas:
1.) The decision to invade Gilneas was not Sylvanas', it was Garrosh's.
2.) Her use of the plague was the only logistically solid tactic the Forsaken had at their disposal. Garrosh demanded they conquered an entire nation and yet barred them from utilising the only feasible means of achieving victory. The Forsaken can't win a conventional fight. It was use the plague on an enemy they were forced to fight, or throw themselves into a slaughter.
3.) Resurrecting dead humans is not only the sole method Forsaken have at their disposal for bolstering their ranks and making up for losses, where other races can simply recruit and conscript, but it might also be considered a mercy in a universe where the afterlife is so menacingly ambiguous and seemingly controlled by capricious entities. The kindest and most noble human or orc will simply kill their enemies and leave them dead. The Forsaken put them down and then offer them a chance to get up again, albeit a little worse for wear.

-People also accuse her of conducting expansionist policy, which while true, to a degree, I do not think warrants accusing her of being wholly evil.
Let's look at the territories in which the Forsaken have been attempting, often successfully, to occupy and secure:

Hillsbrad Foothills, Silverpine Forest, Western Plaguelands, Arathi Highlands, Alterac and the Hinterlands.

The first 3 areas are indisputably part of Lordaeron and, with the majority of Forsaken (though not Sylvanas herself) being the group with the strongest claim to the blighted nation, there is little reason to describe the securing of these lands for the Forsaken as evil.

The Arathi Highlands are seemingly comprised of parts of Lordaeron (rightfully belonging to the Forsaken now) and the failed and collapsed city-state of Stromgarde, which for many years has been occupied by outlaws and murderous thieves, with no national affiliation. I see such a zone as essentially 'up for grabs'. The remaining citizens of Strom are either scattered and disorganised, with no conceivable government, or are now a part of the Forsaken, happily resigned to their new existence.

Alterac is another collapsed state, one which before the end of the Third War, betrayed the Alliance and the other human kingdoms. Another territory which is, in my opinion, 'up for grabs'. It is also an area inhabited by forces hostile to both factions with no national affiliation.

The Hinterlands is the only area which the Forsaken have moved into which gives me pause. But only very briefly. The Hinterlands as a whole do not belong to any recognised nation. There are forest troll settlements there, which neither faction recognise as sovereign, and some Wildhammer settlements. The Wildhammers have become members of the Alliance once again, so it is only natural for them to expect an imminent conflict with the stronger enemy force to the North. It's an open war, acknowledged by both sides, I see very little evil in moving into an essentially free-for-all zone and dealing with enemy settlements therein.

I think that many of the people who claim that Sylvanas or the Forsaken are evil are those who are upset by the fact that the Forsaken are one of the only faction-races achieving anything close to meaningful victories in an open war.

They're my main points. I'll happily respond to any retorts and likely add more points in defence of Sylvanas' amorality and, at most, passive evilness.

[Skytotem]

The first 3 areas are indisputably part of Lordaeron and, with the majority of Forsaken (though not Sylvanas herself) being the group with the strongest claim to the blighted nation, there is little reason to describe the securing of these lands for the Forsaken as evil.

Full stop right there.

How is it -not- evil to murder a bunch of defenseless farmers for no real reason?


Why does Sylvanas -need- this territory to be secure? The Forsaken could fortify what they have and never need to expand beyond it because they flat out don't need a lot of the resources and considerations that living individuals need, and if they weren't murdering humans left and right there wouldn't be a war on and they wouldn't need to fear invasion.

[checking facts]

The Hinterlands is the only area which the Forsaken have moved into which gives me pause. But only very briefly. The Hinterlands as a whole do not belong to any recognised nation. There are forest troll settlements there, which neither faction recognise as sovereign, and some Wildhammer settlements. The Wildhammers have become members of the Alliance once again, so it is only natural for them to expect an imminent conflict with the stronger enemy force to the North. It's an open war, acknowledged by both sides, I see very little evil in moving into an essentially free-for-all zone and dealing with enemy settlements therein.

I have yet to see evidence of the forsaken "invading" hinterlands.

they didn't go there with troops, just one research station and some bodyguards. they just went there for the menial task of summoning a spider goddess and taking poison from her for studies. obviously those studies will end up in poison weapons, but everybody makes weapons anyway.

[Combatbutler]

I have yet to see evidence of the forsaken "invading" hinterlands.

they didn't go there with troops, just one research station and some bodyguards. they just went there for the menial task of summoning a spider goddess and taking poison from her for studies. obviously those studies will end up in poison weapons, but everybody makes weapons anyway.

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27625

They assault the high elves while they are there though.

[checking facts]

How is it -not- evil to murder a bunch of defenseless farmers for no real reason?

full stop here:

"Kingslayer orkus says: Hillsbrad has changed. Back in my day Hillsbrad was a place of constant battle. The humans and dwarves of Southshore would constantly attack the Horde at Tarren Mill. There were days when you could look out past the intersection at Darrow Hill and see a thousand people battling. Glory days, <name> - they'll pass you by."

"Magistrate Burnside was once the mayor of this region. In life he was a formidable adversary in the battle over Hillsbrad. In undeath he will surely test us."

your farmers are not so defenseless, and the reason was there. alliance attacking the forsaken in the lands of the forsaken.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 04:04 PM ----------

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=27625

They assault the high elves while they are there though.

well, that's what I get for not doing alliance hinterlands post cata quests yet lol

I'll see if I do them the week before next, after my tests at college are over

[Skytotem]

full stop here:

"Kingslayer orkus says: Hillsbrad has changed. Back in my day Hillsbrad was a place of constant battle. The humans and dwarves of Southshore would constantly attack the Horde at Tarren Mill. There were days when you could look out past the intersection at Darrow Hill and see a thousand people battling. Glory days, <name> - they'll pass you by."

"Magistrate Burnside was once the mayor of this region. In life he was a formidable adversary in the battle over Hillsbrad. In undeath he will surely test us."

your farmers are not so defenseless, and the reason was there. alliance attacking the forsaken in the lands of the forsaken.

It's a reference to world pvp in Vanilla. The area was higher level for Alliance players so they'd gank horde players or fight them while questing and then friends / guildies / higher level alts and mains would get brought in.

http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Battle_for_Hillsbrad

Journal of Clerk Horrace Whitesteed

The Battle for Hillsbrad

Day 12
We just received word that Southshore has been lost. The Forsaken war machine is too powerful. We are no match for their chemical weapons.
I will attempt, however futilely, to keep this journal updated. I must record these atrocities for posterity.

Day 16
Many of the farmers and residents of Hillsbrad fled. Some attempted to venture east to Arathi Highlands. They never made it. Slaughtered before they reached Thoradin's Wall.
Many went north to seek refuge in Silverpine Forest. They walked right into the heart of enemy territory! Insane, I know, but they claim that the worgen are now on our side.
Last I heard they made it to Fenris Isle. We lost contact with them after that.
Worgen? Could it be true...

Day 19
We knew our time was limited. We evacuated everyone that we could, but Burnside stated that he would go down with Hillsbrad. We all agreed to stand by his side.
Magistrate Burnside, Citizen Wilkes, Blacksmith Verringtan and the farmers, Getz, Kalaba and Ray remain here as well as a few dozen farmhands.

Day 20
The Hillsbrad Fields are no more. Those that did not flee were captured. The Forsaken have declared us as prisoners of war. We are to be laborers at their new plantation.

Day 25
They incinerated our farms and made us watch. Construction begins tomorrow.

Day 40
Construction of their plantation is nearly complete. This place resembles no farm or plantation that I've ever seen.

Day 41
The warden of the plantation, Stillwater, arrived today. He lined all of us up and gave us medical examinations. Nobody knows what's going on.

Day 45
We've started laboring in the sludge fields. They grow poisonous mushrooms in fetid water and muck.

Day 50
I hear screams coming from the Warden's manor. People are starting to disappear.

Day 52
I overheard that some guards talking about the farmers, Ray, Getz and Kalaba. Something terrible has happened to them - of this I am certain.

Day 60
Those of us that remain are scared for our lives. Some of the farmers claim to have seen ghouls running amok at night.

Day 61
A strange turn of events today: a master apothecary from Tarren Mill arrived. From what little information I am able to gather he is here to supervise the operations. Lydon is his name.

Day 62
Master Apothecary Lydon was dragged away by Stillwater's guards. He was yelling and screaming that the Dark Lady would have Stillwater's head for this. What is he talking about, I wonder?

Day 63
I saw them take away Burnside and Verringtan last night. I can only assume that I'm next.
<The rest of the journal is full of incoherent scribbles.>

[Deleted]

Full stop right there.

How is it -not- evil to murder a bunch of defenseless farmers for no real reason?


Why does Sylvanas -need- this territory to be secure? The Forsaken could fortify what they have and never need to expand beyond it because they flat out don't need a lot of the resources and considerations that living individuals need, and if they weren't murdering humans left and right there wouldn't be a war on and they wouldn't need to fear invasion.

If you are referring to the farmers in Hillsbrad, then they are arguably unnecessary targets, but they paint a bullseye on their own backs by staying, foolishly, in a land occupied by a race aligned with a faction hostile to their race for several years, they've had plenty of time to get out of Lordaeron or seek sanctuary with the Forsaken-abided Argent Crusade sovereign territories. Plus, they could well be Stormwind citizens, spreading in land from Southshore, as such, they'd be unwelcome occupiers in a land that isn't theirs.

If you are referring to the farmers in the Plaguelands, well, they're meat shields used by the Stormwind military forces to hide behind, duped into travelling to Lordaeron from impoverished areas such as Westfall, made inhospitable because of the Stormwind leadership. They have no right to be in Lordaeron.

I have yet to see evidence of the forsaken "invading" hinterlands.

they didn't go there with troops, just one research station and some bodyguards. they just went there for the menial task of summoning a spider goddess and taking poison from her for studies. obviously those studies will end up in poison weapons, but everybody makes weapons anyway.

Ahh. I didn't realise that was what the outpost was for, I assumed it was a recon base. If that's the case which side started the fighting from Quel'Danil?

[checking facts]

It's a reference to world pvp in Vanilla. The area was higher level for Alliance players so they'd gank horde players or fight them while questing and then friends / guildies / higher level alts and mains would get brought in.

http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Battle_for_Hillsbrad

player actions are not lore until they are put in the game in some form, like NPC dialog. after that, they are lore. so southshore was indeed a problem to the forsaken.

so here are the "crimes" of the forsaken:

1 - attacking enemy forces in their lands;
2 - making prisoners of war;
3 - doing experiments on them;

only number 3 could be really considered "bad", because the rest of it is also done by living playable humans. it should also be noted that warden stillwater was executed by the forsaken for his deranged experiments that put the forsaken way of life and free will at risk.

[Skytotem]

If you are referring to the farmers in Hillsbrad, then they are arguably unnecessary targets, but they paint a bullseye on their own backs by staying, foolishly, in a land occupied by a race aligned with a faction hostile to their race for several years, they've had plenty of time to get out of Lordaeron or seek sanctuary with the Forsaken-abided Argent Crusade sovereign territories. Plus, they could well be Stormwind citizens, spreading in land from Southshore, as such, they'd be unwelcome occupiers in a land that isn't theirs.

If you are referring to the farmers in the Plaguelands, well, they're meat shields used by the Stormwind military forces to hide behind, duped into travelling to Lordaeron from impoverished areas such as Westfall, made inhospitable because of the Stormwind leadership. They have no right to be in Lordaeron.



Ahh. I didn't realise that was what the outpost was for, I assumed it was a recon base. If that's the case which side started the fighting from Quel'Danil?

1. They have just as much right to those territories as the forsaken do, they lived there before the scourge.

2. They're not 'occupiers' you'd just redraw the political boundaries.

3. No one was duped *rolls eyes* I have no issue with murdering them though since they attacked the Forsaken's base but that's hardly the same issue as Hillsbrad.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 10:14 AM ----------

that put the forsaken way of life and free will at risk.

But not because they were inhumane.

I dunno how this is even an issue, Drek'thar flat out stated the Forsaken were unforgivably evil.

[Skorpionss]

so by that journal I understand that there is yet another forsaken gone rogue...

[Deleted]

All undead are rather evil, dunno if she was good before, as Night Elf. Anyway it is bad question overall, in this game good or evil depends from point of view, so completely wrong question here. Personaly i love taurens the most, they good imo, crystal race mooooooooooooo